Naruto Chapter 623 Breakdown: Warrior children.


It’s a simple, brief word that seems very blunt and unassuming, yet it is also one that bellies a great deal of depth and meaning. It’s a word that represents all the worst aspects of humanity united together, and for those who suffer under its effects, it is a word that best describes nothing short of a living hell.


It is a merciless existence that brings with it only tragedy, even in the heart of triumph. There is no discrimination between its victims, whether they be men, women… or even children.

For two boys living in the hell of war, the only hope they have for a better future is each other.

Strangers who became companions. Sworn enemies who became friends. For two boys living in the hell of war, the only hope they have for a better future is each other.

For Hashirama Senju and Uchiha Madara, war was their reality, their livelihoods and their very existence. From a ripe young age, they were trained to be hardened killers for their clans and taught not to question the age-old traditions of conflict and bloodshed in which they had become hopelessly submerged.

However, unlike the paranoid adults of their time who believed no consensus of peace or understanding could ever be met between the warring clans, these two sought another path, a path that began with their own friendship – a friendship that broke every shinobi rule or sense of rational that dictated they should be enemies. To me, it was this very yearning for companionship and understanding that highlighted the almost childlike innocence of both Hashirama and Madara at the time, because their wants and needs were very much steeped in a sort of hopeful idealism that could not exist in the hearts of battle-hardened adults. Yet, even in what some might consider a childish dream, both Hashirama and Madara also showed the wisdom of adults well beyond their years, as both clearly understood that in order to have any hope of fulfilling that dream, they first had to earn the respect of those around them.

The only way they could do that, was to become strong themselves to the point where they could no longer be ignored as helpless or naive children.

The Wisdom of Children in War

In a way, it is this mix of youthful yearnings and adult-like wisdom that puts these two boys in a unique position amongst both their peers and even their superiors. I really enjoyed the way Kishi managed to flesh out their characters as well – managing to preserve that fun, whimsical side that represents their youth, while also showing signs of the scars of a darker side of life they’ve had to endure. It’s the kind of back-story that breathes a lot of life into this series as a whole and it – dare I say it – makes this a flashback well worth its time in the limelight.

In a way, I felt that this mix of highs and lows – and of laughs and sadness – that really allowed me to connect to both Hashirama and Madara as characters, even more so than many of the other new cast members that have been introduced throughout this war arc. One thing that did surprise me, however, was how much like Naruto Madara was in his youth. While before, Naruto has always been compared to Hashirama – whether by us readers or even by other characters in the story such as Obito – in this latest chapter, I felt much more of a connection between Naruto and Madara than anything else.

It wasn’t just their personalities and overly expressive behavior that seemed similar, however. Even aesthetically, they look very similar in many regards. While they aren’t long-lost twins in any respect, there’s enough bridging the two that you’d say there’s at least some resemblance. If I could put it one way to be more specific, I’d say that if you took Naruto and Sasuke and mixed up some of their physical features, then had most of Naruto’s overbearing personality with some of Sasuke’s serious and smart side, you’d be left with Madara.

Maybe just a bit...

We won’t argue there…

When we look back, a similar comparison could also be made with Naruto and the old Obito that existed before Rin’s death and I believe it’s something that helps us readers build an understanding that the Uchiha really aren’t that different from anyone else really, whether we’re comparing them to Senju or Uzumaki. While they might be considered a clan of methodical, cold-hearted geniuses, they’re also very much human as well and thus subject to all the same emotions – crazy or otherwise – that any other human is subject to.

This notion can be seen in the fact that both Madara and Hashirama share the same dreams, despite being from completely different clans. They are united in a single goal and through that goal, they can find a form of understanding with each other. This brings us to a very symbolic scene where we see the two boys looking over what will one day be the site where Konoha will rise, one clad in white, the other in black. It’s a scene that forms a link to another unlikely pair of friends who eventually became rivals, sharing a similar moment of revelry.

It don't matter if you're black or white!

It don’t matter if you’re black or white!

At the end of the day, this shows us that despite the contrast shown to us between these individuals, the world isn’t so black and white as some like Tobirama or Butsuma would have us believe. The Uchiha are not innately evil, just as the Senju are not innately good, and on either side of the fence we can see both positives and negatives, with Butsuma Senju himself serving as a good example of the darker side of the battle-weary Senju clan.

It also reflects on a time when Naruto once considered the possibility that he himself could have become just as hateful as the likes of Gaara, or even Sasuke, proving that destiny isn’t based on what clan you’re born into or the circumstances of your life, but rather, that it is based on the choices you make and the path you choose to walk.

And yet, evil Naruto would still have the same fashion sense...

And yet, evil Naruto would still have the same fashion sense…

Still, whether you see things as black and white, or even rainbow colored, in reality, everyone’s still fighting for the same cause, even if they’re all doing it in different ways.

That cause, is peace.

Whether it’s Pein’s method of peace through fear, Obito’s peace through control or Hashirama’s peace through understanding, the only difference between these individuals isn’t the end, but rather, the means through which they’d achieve that end. Itachi was willing to commit genocide for that peace. Tobirama discriminated for it. Even Butsuma claims to be fighting for peace through the eradication of Senju’s enemies, while Danzou chose a path of shadows and blood to protect the peace and prosperity of a village he still ultimately loved.

When we take all of this into account, considering that everyone has the same goal, it makes me wonder why no-one is able to understand each other more. In the end though, I think it comes down to paranoia, especially that which is present in the hearts of the older generation who have long since lost the ability to trust.

Loss of faith

Even though I said it was an issue of not being able to trust, it would really be more accurate to say that they have lost the ability to have faith, both in their own dreams and in the potential of others and their ability to change. Through years of bloodshed, loss and pain, even those who might have once had dreams similar to a younger Hashirama or Madara, have long since lost them to the bitterness of a hellish reality.

We can thus see within Butsuma Senju, a man who has “grown up” in his own eyes and who regards Hashirama’s childish idealism as a lost cause. It’s the same transformation we saw in the likes of Nagato, Obito, Madara and even Hanzou, all of whom once had an unwavering dream for a better future in their younger years, but who all eventually succumbed to a loss of faith both in humanity and in their ideals. In every one of their cases, they resorted to alternative, far more extreme measures of a forced peace, believing that true peace through understanding was nothing more than a naive dream meant only for children.

It’s because of this hardened rational that Butsuma orders Hashirama to spy on Madara and learn as much as he can from him, believing that the only fruit that can be born through their interaction is not peace or friendship, but victory for the Senju through bloodshed.

Well, at least he didn't ask you to surprise him...

Well, it could have been worse. At least he didn’t ask you to surprise him…

And this is where we get to the crux of this chapter, a single incident that could be a defining moment in both Hashirama’s and Madara’s lives. An encounter between their fathers and brothers that may force their hands and perhaps even push them into an unwanted confrontation with each other. It’s obviously clear by the fact that both boys warned each other of the trap, that it is a confrontation neither want part in, but to protect their families, particularly their brothers, they may go through lengths that will test just how strong their friendship really is and whether they’re willing to place it even above their kin.

One thing I have been curious about up until now is a complete lack of any sign indicating that Hashirama has the Mokuton yet. However, I have a feeling that this may be an encounter that finally awakens that power in him, one way or another. Either way, it should be an interesting battle between fathers and brothers and judging by how Tobirama and Izuna already seem to be acquainted – along with Butsuma and Tajima – it also looks like it will be battle between rivals all around.

Are those surprise swords you're holding?

Are those ‘surprise swords’ you’re holding?

I would address the fact that both Butsuma and Tajima seem to have no problems about pitting their sons against each other, but I think I’ve already overstayed my welcome with this breakdown, so that’s all from me this week.

I’m sorry if my breakdown seemed a bit to deep or laborious, but my mind seemed to be on track with a specific theme and I couldn’t force it to derail. Hopefully you all enjoyed it.

In the meantime, I decided to give you all a Bubbliton Contest this week, because I still haven’t really managed to come up with an alternative yet.

*Insert caption here.*

*Insert caption here.*

Have fun and see you in the comments! ^ ^

Oh, before I forget, I want to wish one of our oldest members a very happy birthday. So…


~ by Tenrai Senshi on March 13, 2013.

69 Responses to “Naruto Chapter 623 Breakdown: Warrior children.”

  1. FIRST ! @____@

  2. first.

    @ tenrai
    for the debate, from tobirama explanation about uchiha eye power, when uchiha loss something important they get powerful ( and more harder to reasoning ). Is it possible to get power on reverse route ?

  3. @San Toso

    I look at Itachi and I see an Uchiha who decided to walk a different path to the rest of his clan. But, even though he chose to walk a path that avoided conflict and war, he still made some sacrifices to make it possible. One of those sacrifices was the death of Shisui, which gave Itachi the eye powers he needed to accomplish his task.

    In a sense, he played on the curse of his clan to become stronger, however, he did not follow the hateful path that other Uchiha have fallen into, so I’d say he’s a good example of the fact that even the Uchiha can choose a different destiny, that isn’t ruled by their curse. How many Uchiha can we say were as strong as Itachi was? The list would be very short at best. This shows that an Uchiha doesn’t have to fall into hatred to become powerful.

  4. Wow I come back a year later and still no one piece breakdowns. So sad especially since it has so many more discussion points than naruto right now

  5. Wow! Great breakdown Tenrai. I forgot about some of that stuff, and you helped me remember. Thank you very much, especially for the deep quotes. One of them being how destiny isn’t about what’s around you, it’s about what you choose to harbor and do with what’s inside.

  6. @Omar

    Well, you could always volunteer as the breakdown author for OP if you want to help fill a gap. It just seems everyone wants a breakdown for it but no-one actually wants to write them. Lol.


    Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed the breakdown and got something meaningful out of it.

  7. Awesome breakdown.
    However, I refuse to accept Itachi as a good guy since it was an asspull similar to “The Great Snake Escape.”

  8. @Kanton

    I’m not trying to portrey Itachi as a good guy, or anyone else for that matter. I’m not trying to portrey them as bad guys either. I’m merely reflecting on each character’s version of peace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the ends always justify the means.

    But then, everyone has their own sense of justice, so how you see each character will depend on your own feelings. I have my own feelings on each of them, but I also like to see how others feel.

  9. Reading your breakdowns always makes me understand the manga’s themes more and deeply think about them. Great job, Tenrai.

  10. First of all great breakdown second I would love to do a one piece breakdown

  11. Nice and deep breakdown Ten!
    I believe the end does not really justify the means. Most if not all of them want peace but many would resort to non-peaceful means to achieve it. Evil begets evil.
    And one more factor I see from all of these is that there is no humility in the shinobi world – I am better than others and my way to achieve peace is better than yours. Yes, it is much more complicated to singleout the cause of war, but methinks PRIDE would be on top of that list.

  12. @LousyTV

    I think pride is definitely a factor in war, but I don’t think it’s the most pertinent factor. I think the single greatest contributing factor to war and conflict in the Narutoverse is fear.

    I mentioned paranoia a lot in my breakdown and I really do think that the shinobi of this time were paranoid about the possibility of being eradicated by their enemies. This is a world where the strong make the rules and where even a slight imbalance in power could wipe out a clan from existence. There’s no way to tell if others have good or bad intentions, and when you consider that one ninja might have the power to wipe out an entire village, it’s no surprise that fear or mistrust was prevailent. Clans kept striving to become more powerful as a means to survive and ensure they weren’t an easy target and you can even see this in the fact that they were willing to go as far as training their children to be warriors just to ensure they had an edge.

    We can still see this paranoia even after the great nations were formed. Like in how the Kumo tried to steal both the Kyuubi and the Byuakugan from Konoha, even despite having two Jinchuuriki of their own. This, of course, was to try tip the balance of power in their favor even despite being in a time of apparent peace.

  13. @simplyantony

    If you’d like to do a breakdown for OP, get a hold of me on my email and we’ll discuss. Or you can add me on Yahoo messenger if you prefer.


    Just let me know its you when you send a message.

  14. @Tenrai: While it my seem that way but fear itself was just a product of pride within the clans and within the shinobi themselves – they want to be powerful so that they will not only survive but crush those who will not go their way.

    The opposite of all of these is of course humility. Pride hates; humility loves and with love all fear ceases. Naruto himself evolved from a self-centered brat wanting to be Hokage for recognition into a selfless hero embracing the concept of bonds and putting others above himself.

    Consider the implications in real life wars that are mostly rooted in pride and greed. There is no need for war when both party considers the welfare of others first.

  15. Wudddddddup. Great Breakdown Ten (as always)!
    I´ll be trying to get a great bubble, as it seems we will have plenty of time for this one XD.

  16. @LousyTV

    While I understand what you’re getting at, to me, if someone has pride in their own strength and power, they wouldn’t see a need to steal the power or strength of someone else. That seems like desperation more than anything and although their fear might be based on the idea of losing their strength and thus their pride as a clan or as a nation, to me, they’ve already lost it if they can’t rely on their own strength to defeat their enemies, or defend themselves from them.

    Or perhaps this is simply a case where pride has turned to arrogance.

  17. @Tenrai – Awesome breakdown as expected.

    It is definitely a recurring theme about how an individual handle the take the shit that has been dealt to them and make the best/worst of it.

    It will be very interesting to see what the young Madara and Hashirama going to do in the given situation.

  18. Bubblitom:

    Harishima: How’s that smell??
    Madara: My god, what did you eat???

    Caption: Crop dusting level: Shinobi

  19. @the WRA team and Tenrai

    I write this comment on behalf of all the lurkers that come by this site like rabid dogs clawing for the enlightened morsels that are coughed up from the stomach of someone who shall not be named.
    That being said I know I’m a little late and the wrong thread but I really appreciate the work that goes on here and felt the urge to step up a bit. For one thing when I come here it’s not just for the naruto breakdown, it is also for the fun and the community and especially the extremely well written essays that border on literature reviews at times.
    Ok ingratiate myself, Check.
    Ideas for new discussion, how about everyone talk about their favourite breakdowns. Mine was Pickles’ 504. The latest breakdown is another example of WRA 🙂
    Keep up the great work 🙂

    Whoops also posted this on the wrong thread XD

  20. @ Unoriginal, I thank you very much for your post, it’s really great to see you guys post for a change and we hope a more of you step up and start taking part in the comments. We are awesomeness because of you and the more we are the better it will be for the blog and the authors as a whole.
    I for one am really grateful for everyone’s hard work in this place and I’m glad I have a place to go every week and read some really cool opinions and ideas.
    P.S. Welcome to WRA

  21. Bubbliton:

    Harishima: “So thats where you hide the cookies!”
    Madara: “Dont you dare! Dont make me go all Amaterasu on your ass!”

    Caption: Later Madara invented the one thousand years of death jutsu!

  22. Bubblition (Right to left in the bubbles obviously)

    Hashirama: Hayaku! We can end the cycle of hate!
    Madara: Wait! It’s just a story! Don’t believe everything you hear! Hashirama!!!

    Caption: Madara probably regrets stopping Hashirama from jumping off the mountain.

  23. I’m wondering if Hashirama and Madara will refuse to fight and perhaps lay the foundation of their trust in front of their fathers and brothers, to perhaps set the example needed?

  24. Really good breakdown Tenrai.
    I wish to share some words with you and i would be glad if you could say what you think about it.

    At first when I began reading (especily reading War x2) I thought to myself: this is just like “Romeo and Juliet” or the “West side story” just in a bromance way. But Kishi took it to another level giving young Madara and Hashirama sense and wisdom to know that patience at their age is crucial. But just like children they were foolish to think that their parents wouldn t be looking over them, in some way controling them so they couldn t derive from their chosen path. But the main thing we see is the birth of something new…
    Here we can see the second ( or third ) most spoken theme of the manga series – bonds. In this and the previous manga we saw the resistance of Hashirama to his father what isn’t a little thing because this was the first oposition to the living-system of their time. ( wonder how the conversation went at the Madaras?). I think many people don’t realize that kishi puts a strong exclamation on the relationship between father-son, in other words old-new (time, generation, system…) whether in embracing the “Will of Fire” or the relationship between Shikamaru and Asuma and so on. The evolution from the old world into the same new one is the thing that intrigues…
    That path of transformation isn’t a easy one. It s full of devotion, pain and sacrifice. That’s the thing the “new” generation will have to endure to create their own future. My question is now how will Madara and Hashirama react to the fight between their familys? The first test of their decision is now.
    My prediction is a dark one. They will fail at this first stage. But that doesn’t mean they will fall apart or that their dream will fade away, at least from one side. But then as always Kishi leaves us with..

    I’m really sorry for the long post and for my english. Greetings from Croatia. 🙂

  25. i was woundering when the two clans would get a better depth into the real reasons behind what happened to them.

  26. Hashirama: Naked Uchiha Chicks! Lets go!

    Madara: Hashirama!!! Come back here !!! You’ll get yourself killed!!

    Caption: It was no surprise to Madara when Hashirama specialized in wood and summoned a statue with many hands

  27. Ashes, you forgot to add Bubblition so that its easy looked for by the breakdown writer! (Then you say you don´t win , XD)

    Young Hashirama: Ohhh yeah! I’ll get there first and it will be all for me!
    Young Madara:
    -Man, don´t go!
    -Why do you trust him? We just met…
    -AND HE LOOKS FREAKYYYYY (this line would fade out, like if Madara is shouting but Hashirama is listening from far away…)
    Orochimaru: The cake is a lie.


  28. Oh, forgot…
    Happy Birthday Ahsan!

  29. Bubblition

    Hashirama: Naked Uchiha Chicks! Lets go!

    Madara: Hashirama!!! Come back here !!! You’ll get yourself killed!!

    Caption: It was no surprise to Madara when Hashirama specialized in wood and summoned a statue with many hands

    @ Nike There in the face of being redundant 😛

    @ everbody else
    if it wasn’t for mention of Sasuke’s mom we would’ve assumed that the Uchiha were born from asexual means….. Mitosis or somekind of weird natural cloning like Komodo dragons can do…. Seriously why don’t we get to see any Uchiha ladies…

    @ Tenrai
    also I agree with you on most of your breakdown Tenrai. Sry I really don’t have anything more to contribute. Keep up the good work.

  30. The chapter is out!

  31. @Pavo Menix

    Hello, and welcome to WRA. It’s nice that you took the time for such a detailed comment and I particularly liked your analogy of a Romio and Juliet scenario between Hashirama and Madara (Just without the romance part). In a sense, that really is what is happening here. You have two clans that have so much distrust between each other, than any hope of a relationship of any kind between two of its members is frowned upon, much in the way the Montagues and Capulets were at each other’s throats.

    Of course, let’s hope that the course of action that Madara and Hashirama decide to take to overcome their family feud isn’t to commit joint suicide. 😛

    As for the bonds theme, it’s very much the kind of brotherhood theme I’ve mentioned in the past. Kishi has always strongly represented the theme of brotherhood, whether the brothers involved were blood brothers, or “spiritual” brothers. In the case of Naruto and Sasuke, or Hashirama and Madara, I’d say they have a relationship akin to spiritual brotherhood. It’s something that transcends normal friendship (Naruto is “friends” with Shikamaru, but he considers himself Sasuke’s brother, which implies an even stronger bond).

    As you mentioned though, how they handle things now will be key. Will they choose their bond with each other of their bonds with their families? Or will they try to preserve both? Read the chapter that just came out and we’ll see. @___@

  32. So I guess Madara’s will wasn’t as strong as Hashirama’s after all…

  33. That was a good chapter, have to say I was not expecting Hashirama to own Madara like that. I have enjoyed the way Hashirama has been portrayed by Kishi. He has that childish behaviour but that look to Tobirama shows the strong serious leader in him. This flashback has been really good and has added real personality to these almost mythic characters of the story.

    Great breakdown Tenrai, always enjoy reading your insightful analysis.

  34. So it was Tobirama’s Flying Thunder God strike thet would bring about the death of Izuna. I too, have to say, the progress of Hashirama and Tobirama was amazing compared to Madara and Izuna, and to think this was a time of constant fighting, very fruitful for power upgrades and mastery of new jutsus.
    So to think thet two of the greatest Uchiha, in there prime, were taken out by Hashirama and Tobirama is a true testament of this guys’s brutal power and ascension.

    All in all a great chapter, i’m a bit sad because the great battles were the thing that interested me the most and in this case Kishi fast forward through them but in my book this was an A+ chapter and probably in the next 2 chapters Hashirama will wrap things up and we’ll get Sasukes answer.

  35. i do believe hashirama accepted that ultimatum in their battle at the valley of the end. i mean how else did madara survive and acquired hashirama’s cells? who would take down the god of shinobi but himself

  36. @ lackofimagination, keep in mind this fight was before the alliance was made, and the vally of the end incident was only after Madara left the Leaf.
    So he might have come to a truce at the request of his fellow uchiha but wasn’t satisfied with the result so he went rogue in search of power and revenge for his kid brother. So the fight Hashiram started his story with might have left madara crippled for life and in the end Hashirama took his own life to show his friend that he always wanted piece between them.

  37. @Eugen: That explanation would actually make sense, as it’d be the reason why Madara wanted to use the Moon’s Eye Plan in the beginning. It’s possible that over time Madara turned his back on the bond between him and Hashirama, so he intended to do something entirely different than case a huge genjutsu.

  38. The Hell?! An Uchiha Madara was curb stomped offscreen!! IMPOSSIBL*coughs up blood*!!!!!

  39. I personally believe that Hashirama will accept the ultimatum, but rather than killing Tobirama, he’ll choose to kill himself. However, just as he’s about to, Madara will stop him. He’ll accept that Hashirama’s lack of hesitation in acting to kill himself for the sake of peace means he is trustworthy and he’ll lead Uchiha into an alliance with Senju.

    I also think that for a time after that, the relationship between Hashirama and Madara might even lighten up a bit and we’ll see a bit of those old feelings between them resurface. But Madara will still be tainted by the death of his brother and he’ll slowly but surely fall into darkness. As Konoha grows, he’ll start to come to odds with Hashirama’s way of doing things. Perhaps it’s because Hashirama gives the bijuu to the other nations, or his pacifist nature that Madara doesn’t accept. Either way, eventually Madara will try to do things his own way, kinda like how Danzou did against both Tsunade and Hiruzen. This clash of ideals may lead to a confrontation and old wounds will be reopened.

    That’s just my guess anyway. I’m not sure if it’s right but I might as well try to theorize now while I have the chance.

  40. @Ten I though the same thing but instead tobirama stops him and starts his talk no jutsu and changes mandaras mind

  41. I can’t see Madara in a good light. He behaves spoiled and with a sense of entitlement. When he turned on kid Hashirama, he stated that if the scrap when forth, the Uchihas would be defeated. So he found it comvenient to walk away with his life ans expressed that the next time they met they would do so as adversaries. I think the strongest are more suited to play that role. To let the weak escape until they are a match at a later interval. Later when Izuna died, he again withdrew. I can’t see how Madara is in anyway honorable. Asking Hashirama to commit siucide or kill Tobirama is absurd. His life has already been spared twice (that we know of). What a fool.

  42. @ allthingstakenintoaccount, My thoughts exactly. I would have expected Madara to be a more lethal force in his youth but it seems the dude got stronger only after he stole the Kyuubi.

    If he was beaten by Hashirama and Tobirama with the EMS that means he wasn’t all that great.
    Also the way he shunned Hashirama for there parents surprise attack was a big load of crap. Why would he take his sorrows out on the only guy who tried to warn him and literally saved his little brother’s life. That was a very stupid call on Madara’s part. (also as a side note, didn’t Madara state he already had the sharingan, or at least tried to say it, when both he and Hashirama were on top of the mountain and Madara suggested they should have a contest on who can see farthest), In the last chapter Hashirama thought the sharingan activation was because of him, a testament of Madara breaking his bond with him, but in reality, I think, Madara achieved the sharingan because of his dead brothers.

  43. @ Eugen, you’re in the right. How else could he be so strong without the sharingan? I found the startled Izuna puzzling, I mean, why would he express wonder at Hashirama being stronger than Madara if indeed Madara didn’t have a sharingan? The whole history isn’t making much sense to me, if Madara was so inferior to Hashirama, how could he battle him for 24hrs? Unless of course Hashirama wasn’t really taking him serious. Which knowing him, could very well be the case. In any event, I am beginning to get the sense that Hashirama was indeed the strongest of all Hokages. But I don’t know exactly why, considering Madara was a fraud up until, presumably, after Hashiramas death.

  44. well i think i know why madara wanted to say he had the sharingan to hashirama even if it still wasn’t activated. i think he just wanted to prove that he was good at something to hashirama. man, if i was in madara’s shoes i would do anything just to show hashirama i was even good at something. he was like obito and naruto when he was young always trying to be good at something just to be acknowledged. and i guess the reason he could battle hashirama for 24hrs is that because hashirama was always on the defensive and never wanted to the harm on madara or the uchihas. and after all that talk i think sasuke’s decision is to help naruto and put an end to this war and the curse of the uchiha.

  45. @Allthings & Eugen

    I don’t think we must think of this as a situation where Hashirama was just significantly stronger than Madara, but rather see it for what it was. Senju as a whole, was stronger than Uchiha. On a battlefield with both clans facing off, it isn’t just Madara vs Hashirama all the time, but rather, both clan leaders have to be responsible for their forces as well and if one army is stronger than the other, it’s only logical that one leader will suffer from more strain on the battlefield as a consequence.

    We also need to keep in mind that Hashirama had several bijuu under his control before Konoha was formed and we have no evidence to suggest that Uchiha had any. This means that the balance of power was overwhelmingly in Senju’s favor.

    When you think about it that way, it’s understandable why Madara found it difficult to trust Hashirama. It’s one thing to accept a peace proposition when both sides are on equal terms and have an equal amount of power and influence, but when you are the lesser side accepting a peace offer from a clan that is overwhelmingly stronger than yours, you can’t help but feel as if you are simply submitting to their will and allowing them to take control of your people. After all, the stronger clan can naturally control the terms of peace and subject the weaker to whatever will they desire.

    I’m not saying Hashirama would have done that, but as Madara said, he can’t trust whether Hashirama was being sincere and the only way to prove his sincerity was to make a sacrifice that no other person would have made at that time.

  46. @ Ten your last 2 paragraphs are spot on, but the only thing that bugs me is, Hashirama never gave Madara a reason to doubt him, he was always sincere and always said what he felt, as a matter of fact, in spite of there clans secrecy, both were straight forward with each other on every discussion they had.

    Madara’s reason to doubt Hashirama is a selfish one on his part and all he’s thinking about is to get revenge for his brother’s death. Now that’s just a load of crap, should Tobirama gone easier on Izuna, just because he was weaker, I think not. In war you win if your stronger and smarter and if Madara was the man he proclaimed himself to be, then he wouldn’t have lost his brother in the fight but he would have been side by side with Izuna, the pair of them protecting each other.

    Long story short, don’t make promises you can’t keep, and after that you start making conditions for the person who spared your life.

  47. @ chaps, I’m guessing it’s a combination of what both you and Tenrai said.

  48. there are a few resemblances between Minato and Tobirama. Their ability to sense ninja by touching the ground, the FTG technique. Minato even created the ultimate cancel to Tobirama’s Impure World Resurrection jutsu, with his Reaper Death Seal. I guess it’s Kishi trying to tell us that Minato is related to Tobirama some how (Great Grandson?) and that Naruto is purely related to the youngest son of the Sage. Uzumaki and Senju blood would do wonders and would explain a lot about Narutos freakish chakra and stamina.

    I now think that Minato is stronger the Tobirama (I still consider Hiruzen the strongest). My Hokage ranking is Hiruzen, Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama, then Tsunade). It’s be a great battle; Minato was a genius and Tobirama made cold, calculated decisions.

  49. @ Wise, I’m down for that debate.

    You all know I’m gonna take Tobirama’s side, so let’s start with some pros and cons.

    High speed, great at sealing ninjutsu, great at summoning jutsu, great with Kunai, calm and collected battle decision making, also he developed the rassengan.
    he was to cool to have any drawbacks

    Great sensing abilities, high speed, great swordsmanship skills, inventor of some scary ninjutsu that put there mark on the Narutoverse history (FTG, Edo Tensei), expert water style jutsu, immense chakra pool.
    He was a douche.

    As far as opponents Minato was feared by a lot of people, he even stood proud and outmatched Bee and A, this along with his reputation of flee on sight made minato one of the greatest shinobi out there.
    So as a top 3 opponents we have A, Bee and Obito

    Tobirama on the other hand grew up with war as his education and probably killed more people then he’d like to remember. He grew up slaughtering Uchiha in battle along side his brother and kinsmen and he also delivered the finishing blow to Izuna (who had the MS at the time)
    and also took down Madara with Hashirama’s aid of course.

    So to me these two guys are are pretty much on par.

  50. I don’t think Madara fought the whole Senju clan. I think it was a one-on-one battle between Hashirama and Madara interwoven with in a battle between the clans. Once Madara, the final Uchiha standing, was defeated that’s when the other Senju surrounded him.

    I also think that fight with Izuna was a little weird. He didn’t express any signs of having used his MS powers and even then I still think he wasn’t as adapted to using his Sharingan powers as Sauske, Itachi and Madara. Tobirama had to use a teleporting jutsu to move quick enough so that Izuna couldn’t see him with his eyes.

    Minato has him beat in speed – The FTG v.2
    strength is an unkown
    stamina is a push because they could both summon huge amounts of an entity – Tobirama the huge body of water, Minato a giant Toad and can teleport a huge concentration of chakra away at a far distance

    Intellect goes to Minato for being able to deduce a fighter to such an extent that he was able to find weaknesses and create his own (i.e. his fight with Tobi). Tobirama can’t even find a weakness in the improved Impure World Resurrection jutsu, that he created…

    Taijutsu goes to Minato because of his speed. But I don’t know the full extent of each person’s fighting styles

    Ninjutsu goes to Minato because of the rasengan, FTG v2, Teleporting, sealing.

    Genjutsu is Tobiramas I guess because he did the total black thing during his fight when he was first ressurrected and he has fought more Uchiha and has experience with that.

    I think all signs point to Minato winning this fight. He’s an improved version of Tobirama

  51. @eugen and thelaughingwiseman I think tobi I said that mandara and izuna were the same strength but I have to go back and read it cause I am not sure…also the real question is if the eternal sharingan made mandara so strong why didn’t izuna and mandara used their diseased brothers eyes to achieve it?

  52. being an uchiha is so sad. i bet that’s why itachi wanted it to end thru his brother sasuke because he was so innocent at that time and he wanted sasuke to take his life so the hatred that the uchiha carried would end with the hands of a uchiha.

  53. *recovers from regurgitating blood*
    Bubblition: Last one there eats your cookie
    Madara: What are you talking about my cookies are… … MY COOKIES! HASHIRAMA I WILL KILL YOU!!!
    Caption: And that’s how Madara activated his sharingan
    Alternate caption; And that’s when Madara started to hate Hashirama.

  54. @simplyantony I remember reading somewhere Madara was the very first to activate MS, with Izuna soon after. So they would have been the pioneers in terms of tech and how to solve the blindness issues.

  55. I still don’t know why Madara and Izuna couldn’t have switched eyes. It has always bothered me. I think Madara was looking for ways to become powerful, and even sacrificed his own brother to that means. I think he manipulated him.

  56. We’ve only had second hand stories on that so far. Some say madara took them others say izuna gave it to him. I believe it will be more a situation where Izuna is dying and madara’s going blind and Izuna s like take it and voila cure discovered and new EMS by accident. I think it’s also a case of why, the younger brothers are more like their fathers, get the job done by whatever means necessary, and so Izuna gave them to him so he would keep fighting, be stronger and win.

  57. Hey Tenrai…just some quick thoughts

    First, Izuna didn t strike me to be so full of hatred, convincing madara not to take the truce, whats your mind on that? and Izuna is a really important character, I m in some way disappointed that he didn t put some more story around him :/

    Second, i don t think that Hashirama will do anything from Madaras ultimatum, maybe it would be like you told, but we know that they built Konoha together so that’s a little spoiler.

    Finally, I really think Hashirama will die and it will be in some way Madaras fault. For that reason and because he loves his brother Tobirama will invent the Edo Tensei.

    And one more quick question: What do you think Orochimaru is now after ?

  58. @pavo Menix

    Not to butt in, but I think it was necessary for Izuna to hate the the senju. If he didn’t, I don’t think Madara would show any hesitation to form a truce, or at least he would be more easily convinced. All the same, I am disappointed in his lack of page time, seeing as how he seemed to influence Madara a lot more than Hashirama in their later years.

    Also about the edo tensei I have another theory that I think is pretty plausible. I think it’s possible that Tobirama invented it not for himself, but for the uchiha. Think about it, what better offering of peace is there than to give them the one thing they’ve been fighting over. How could Madara be mad if he could have his brothers back? However, it’s possible that it had the opposite effect. This actually could have led to further animosity between the clans,since the uchiha may have taken it as some sort of mockery of their brothers’ memory.

    As far as orochimaru goes I think we could be seeing a redemption of the white snake in the future, but only if sasuke decides to help naruto after this meeting.

    Anyways I agree with you in regards to the other things.

  59. @Pavo

    I think hate is a strong word that may not necessarily accurately represent how those on both sides necessarily feel. To me, it was more about suspicion and mistrust. Izune may not have disagreed with a truce because he hated the Senju, but because he mistrusted them or didn’t believe they were being genuine in their offer. You must remember that both he and Madara lost more than one brother, and most likely to Senju at that, so it stands to reason that they might not fully accept the possibility of coming to an understanding.

    The same goes on both sides though as we can see the same behavior in Tobirama as well, who seems just as against an alliance as Izuna.

  60. @Everyone

    Just to let you all know, I’ll be doing a double this week, mostly because time and good fortune has not been on my side over these past few days. I’ll probably release my breakdown on Thursday or Friday, depending on how things go. Sorry for the delay.

  61. I love heads up! So, no worries Ten, release when you are ready to unleash tha power XD

  62. lol @ Nikeairforce

  63. I’m with Nikeairforce. Good things come to these who wait.

  64. @ten its all good better late than never….also u should do that new manga post I guarantee people will enjoy it…god knows I’m already hooked

  65. is out people!

  66. I’m really really happy with the way this chapter turned out, and I’m glad I saw through Hashirama’s noble gesture to try and take his own life and Madara stopping him.

    It was really nice to see Hashirama offer the title of Hokage to Madara, but I’m afraid Tobirama was right about him. Even if the people would have chosen Madara as hokage, I’m sure he would have chosen the dark path because of what he learned from the stone tablet.

    The dude was foolish in this regard, for taking the inscription as a driving factor for his revolt. Obito, at least, had the common sense to read it with both sharingan, ms and with the help of Nagato’s Rinnegan so he knew everything there was o know about the tablet’s meaning.

    I think the main reason the alliance didn’t work was because Izuna died. If all four brothers would have been alive when the truce was called I think the hatred would have been of mellow proportions.
    Madara never forgave Tobirama for dealing the killing blow to Izuna and for that reason he would Never trust anyone else besides Hashirama in the whole village.

  67. I guess Kishi, I mean Tenrai was once again spot on.
    Only the reason for going evil was a somewhat different. Although i must admit tobirama really is a douchebag, the explenation didn’t make much sense to me, madara was scared that Tobirama would once again try to exterminate the uchiha clan when hashirama would pass away, wouldnt madara be able to protect his clan at that moment?

    Do you think the dream Madara was talking about is the moons eye plan?

  68. @ LiveAid, I think Madara saw Tobirama as a bigger threat then we think, the dude might just have been on the same level, or at least really close to these two. Tobirama proved his worth when he took out Izuna, a Izuna with the MS, so Madara must have felt really pinned in a corner to leave his brothers like that. A true leader would have stood there and push hard to get the acceptance to the people, like Gaara and Naruto did.

    He just took the easy way out and decided to follow old prophecies as his guide in life.

  69. I seem to have become some sort of psychic when it comes to predicting Naruto chapters. I was pretty much spot on. Lol. X___X

    All-in-all, a good chapter though and I was glad to see that Madara was willing to try and accept a compromise to attain peace between Uchiha and Senju. It at least shows that his character isn’t purely one-dimensional. Still, the real problem stirrer here was Tobirama, whose actions not only led to Madara’s abandonment of Konoha, but also to the eventual annihilation of the Uchiha clan.

    Who knows, maybe they would have eventually fallen onto that path anyway, even without Tobirama’s influence, but they also may not have. Tobirama definitely could have stood to be a bit more diplomatic.

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