Naruto Chapter 593 Breakdown: He’s back!!!

Children of the world beware, for one of the most notorious pedophiles ever to grace the earth has finally returned from the dead!

No, not him dammit. <_<

Okay, let me rephrase that…

The most notorious villain in the Narutoverse has finally returned from the dead!

There we go. See? He’s already playing with his snake. >_>

Now it seems that technically speaking, Orochimaru was never really dead in the first place. Rather, his consciousness was simply trapped within Anko’s cursed seal, waiting for someone to release him into the world once again.

When you think about it, it makes sense that Orochimaru – being the immortality lover he is – would have had a back-up plan just in case anyone had been rude enough to end his life or something drastic like that. I reckon he placed his cursed mark only on those he felt might have been worthy enough to serve as hosts for his soul should he ever need to transfer bodies, so it isn’t too far-fetched that he would have also injected some of his own essence into those seals to make the new host body grow accustomed to his chakra and thus, a less resistant recipient once he “made his move.”

This would explain why Sasuke lost his cursed mark after Orochimaru was removed from his body and why Orochimaru’s consciousness was able to survive inside Anko – whom it in habitted after his encounter with Itachi – waiting to be released. Sasuke, being the S&M type he is, was more than happy to oblige in that regard.

Omg! Someone save that poor snake! He’s choking on a giant dildo!

So, Orochimaru pops out of Anko like a soda from a vending machine (only, it’s cheaper to pay for the services of a vending machine), only to immediately declare his desire to take over Sasuke’s body. For those of you who were surprised by this rather typical revelation, you obviously haven’t been paying attention these past 593 chapters, have you?

But, being the cool-headed guy he is, Orochimaru already figured out he wasn’t strong enough to take Sasuke to bed yet – especially if it meant carrying him bridal-style – so he decided to start with a little bit of foreplay instead. Thus, the discussion about scrolls, people who know lots of stuff and the adventures of Pedobear began.

Surprise…? X__X

For those of you familiar with bending the elements, Orochimaru decided to take it one step further by bending all of our minds with lots of gibber-jabber and no real coherent information being relayed to us readers.

His first and most pertinent point was that he had no interest in taking part of the current shinobi war, seeing as how his goals and interests did not fall within the parameters that would necessitate such interference. If he learned about how men in the army took showers together in big, communal washrooms, I’m sure he’d have changed his mind very quickly – however, such is not the case.

The second point he addressed was the reason as to why Sasuke wanted to meet “them” – “them” being people who must obviously be related to “this person” and “that jutsu.” They all form one big family with the last family name “us.” Of course, Sasuke gives his reason, and it’s a reason that stands to be completely unreasonable.

Wow, that was almost as deep as Orochimaru usually goes. O_o

Going by the fact that Sasuke wants to know everything, it’s quite obvious that the person he wants to meet is none other than “Google,” the only one who actually knows just about everything there is to know.

But for those of you who have other ideas as to whom Sasuke may be referring to, please deffer to the following poll, because my mind is far too befuddled to come up with theories of its own right now.

Ignoring what I said a few lines above, I must say that I personally feel that the scroll may allow its user to resurrect those who have been sealed by the Reaper Death Seal with what may be an enhanced version of Edo Tensei. After all, the only ones I can think of who would know the most about the events leading up to the Uchiha massacre would be Hashirama – who fought Madara and was intricately aware of the conflict between Uchiha and Senju – and Tobirama – who passed the law that led to the isolation and silent persecution of the Uchiha clan.

It would also explain why Sasuke needed Orochimaru to use the scroll, seeing as how Orochimaru has the most intricate knowledge of Edo Tensei out of anyone alive right now aside from Kabuto who is still on a merry-go-round in his own mind.

Therefor, going along those lines, I also believe that the place that Orochimaru is taking Sasuke to – the place he said Sasuke “knows well” – is Konoha itself. Of course, that is one of many possibilities, but either way, this newly formed team of misfits heads off into an uncertain future, dragging the rest of this story along with them.

People always said that you could tell the time by looking at the sun… but I could never make out the numbers. X__X

All-in-all, jokes aside, I think Kishi made a bold move by bringing Orochimaru back into the fray once more and I also believe it was a move made off the premise that his current villains – among whom are counted Tobi and Madara – were simply not compelling enough to drive the story along as antagonists on their own.

To me, Orochimaru was always the kind of villain who instilled a real sense of dread and foreboding when he was originally on the scene and whose goals were always cloaked in obscurity. Besides the fact that he seems to want to learn the secrets behind all jutsu, we don’t really know what’s driving him or what he intends to do with all that knowledge once he acquires it. Did the death of his parents make him ponder on the meaning of life, thus urging him to question all life and discover as much knowledge as he could? I hope that Kishi explores his psyche a bit more in those regards and fleshes out his character a bit.

Not too literally, mind you. After all I think, physically speaking, he’s fleshy enough as it is already. <_<

Alrighty then, that’s it from me for now. Here are the winners of last week’s Bubbliton Contest.

Eke2k6: You know what comes next, Sasuke.

Unfortunately, there weren’t many entries last week, so choosing runner-up positions would have ultimately proved pointless and, in some ways, would have seemed contrived.

In any case, here is this week’s Bubbliton.

*Insert possible caption here.*

See you all in the comments. ^ ^

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~ by Tenrai Senshi on July 16, 2012.

151 Responses to “Naruto Chapter 593 Breakdown: He’s back!!!”

  1. First.

  2. Damn, Tenrai, this breakdown is hilarious!! *wipes tears from laughing too much*

  3. Third FTW!
    Great breakdown Ten! Sasuke on his way to Google Headquarters, XDDD

    Bubble.
    Oro. Here here, dont be so sad, youll be able to get him when Im done…
    Caption: Kabuto knows there wont be much left… If any…

  4. Sweet! I won!

    Great breakdown Tenrai.

    Bubble/Bubblition:

    Now, Sasuke. When you recruit a new hoe, you have to destroy their self confidence completely. For example, this bitch has learned his place.

    Caption: Return of the pimp hand

  5. Awesome Breakdown.

    Glad to know the nasty sannin is back.

  6. Orochimaru:

    (bubble1) He just couldn’t handle the pressure to be an awesome villian.

    (bubble2) Sasuke, pay attention this is what happens when someone tries to replace me.

    Caption: Itachi isn’t the only one who with an Emasculation jutsu. Tobi lookout!

  7. I think if he is going to get information from the hidden leaf village, maybe he going to go see Homura Mitokado and Koharu Utatane.They seem to know a lot about the dark side of the village and hold many of it secrets . And i swear wanted to kill them and destroy the village. Two birds one stone.

  8. Bubblition

    Orochimaru: Ever had any of my D.N.A. in you? No? You want some?

    Caption: Another Orochimaru Innuendo

  9. @Tanwir

    That’s actually a good point. I forgot to consider Homura and Koharu in my theories or my polls, but they would probably know more than anyone currently alive besides perhaps Tobi or Madara themselves. So, they’re the best bet here if that scroll isn’t related to Edo Tensei or resurecting people.

    I’ll add that to the poll. Thanks for reminding me that they still existed. Lol.

  10. Everyone completely disregarded the fact that I showed up from absolutely nowhere and claimed first 😥 … I guess no one around here knows who I am anymore XD

  11. Holy crap, I can’t believe I didn’t notice that. Long time no see xIReFleX.

  12. *Eats Flex*

    There we go, now you’ll get lots of my undivided attention. @___@

  13. *snatches flex from the jaws of death*

    woo..close one bud. I know ya been gone a while but ya know we gotta be more careful than that 🙂

    *eases back into shadows before TenTen notices*

    …….evil laugh……..

  14. Indigestion is a good way of getting ones attention I suppose. XD

    Long time no see Gavin! Teach these other people who I am 😛

  15. @ Flex,
    “we need you guys to set tenrai on The right path and help him stop eating people and maybe spit out jeramiah,
    Supertreck, kisu, totalitarian, erosannin, REFLEX, peny, prowl, and all The others that i will find missing since tenrai’s eating dissorder.
    Welcome”

    as you can see I remember everyone Tenrai has ever eaten, you’ve surely been missed and I’m sad to say a lot of the old guys haven’t stop’ed by in a long time.
    Also where’s the Kakashi avatar dude, that was your trademark.

  16. What new mangas that have recently come out (minumum of 3 years old), do you think are going to be great

    And what anime do you guys consider your favorites

  17. @people of WRA: xIReFleX was one of the most outspoken members of IRA in its heyday. He provided some of the best role-playing comment fights ever and was otherwise one of the most active comment makers and debaters. He was part of IRA a long before I started hanging around. I hope he has been lurking around and noticed how well Tenrai has been keeping up the place.

  18. Hah! No apetite for the next chapter awwww, i will love to see how the 5 kages survive this nightmare (without any help from Naruto or any of the good samaritans)

  19. @Reflex Great to see [s]old farts[/s] past awesomeness show up, welcome home brah!
    Also great catch Tanvir! Poll update FTW XD

  20. Please let me win this caption for my first time, please let me win this caption for my first time, Please let me win this caption for my first time, Please let me win this caption for my first time!

    Caption 1: After I’m done with Kabuto, you’re next Sasuke.

    Caption 2: Watch and learn Sasuke. This is how I perform my craft.

    Caption 3: Here. There’s plenty of my DNA to go around Sasuke.

    Caption 4: As you can see Sasuke, I like to take as well as give.

    Caption 5: *brain explodes from hitting his limit of caption ideas*

  21. As you can see, I’ve never done this before. My previous post are the ones for the text bubble. The following is the ones for the actual caption. And I’ll say it again: Please let me win this contest for my first time!

    Caption 1: There can be only one Orochimaru.
    Caption 2: Because the world isn’t ready for two pedophiles.
    Caption 3: The world’s greatest pedomon master!

    Bubble 1 (in conjunction with Caption 3): Kabuto! Return!

    Feel free to use any combination of all of these. I just want to win this at least once. No, I’m not afraid to speak out and ask for something like this. I’d appreciate it. Thank you!

  22. So I called it…. Kabuto survived even with all that flashback, that proves that a flashback doesn’t necessarily mean death. He’s just stuck in the cave, ignored by Orocimaru and Sasuke, running around in the merry go around as tenrai puts it so hilariously

  23. hey i’ve been looking around on the interwebs, i’ve seen some rumors that there might be a double chapter this week, anybody heard of that?

  24. @Kevin

    Sorry, but I don’t just “let” people win. They only win if their entry is good enough and if I gave out wins as freebies, it would be unfair to everyone else. If yours are good enough, then you’ll win. @__@

    @Ashes

    Well, even though Kabuto may not have physically died, we can view his current state as a symbolic death because really, only two things can happen from here on out.

    1: Kabuto refuses to accept himself and ends up dying of starvation and exposure while he’s trapped in his genjutsu.

    2: He changes his outlook on who he is and accepts himself as a person and not as a myriad of other identities. In a sense, this would be a case where the old Kabuto “dies” and a new one is born.

    *Eats all witnesses.*

  25. @Tenrai Senshi: Actually, you misunderstood me. I didn’t literally mean LET me win as in a free pass. I meant that as I hoped to win. Like crossing one’s fingers and saying to himself, “Please let me win.”

  26. @ Gavin – Remember… I was also one of the founders of this blog when IRA collapsed 😉 I’m sorta like a godfather to all these new people 😛

  27. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65097047/1
    It’s out

  28. Tobi just dropped the bomb and It seems he might just be Obito.
    Also what happened to the color pages Kishi promised us last week.

  29. @ Eugen – Here you go.

  30. Flex, now that’s what I’m talking about!
    You, me, Tenrai, Dish and Gavin are the only people left here with the same avatars from the begining.

  31. Man, Kishi has been on a ROLL!

  32. Well, there’s no doubt left in my mind now that Tobi is, in fact, Obito. The way he spoke about Kakashi on such a personal level seals the deal for me.

    In any case, that chapter was really good and I’m glad we’re finally going back to the battle between Naruto and Tobi now. It’s becoming really epic, although I can’t tell whether Tobi will be able to revive the Juubi or not.

    I also thought it was cool how Naruto and Kurama switched places. Lol.

  33. @Tenrai, I thought so too until he said something personal to Gai as well. It was slightly ambiguous for me.

  34. @ eke2k6 That’s exactly why it’s so much more the reason Tobi would be Obito, seeing as he knew Gai on a personal note as well. That means he must have been from the Konoha.

  35. Though i’ve never been a huge fan of the Tobi/Obito theory, it would make for an interesting story and Kishi could expand on what happened to Obito after Kakashi left. Things like how he survived / why he gave up on the world etc.

  36. if he is obito then why is his face so old? i think kishi is trying to fool us just like when danzo showed his sharingan when we found out about tobis

  37. Yeah right, kishi is going to do a Bleach. He is going to keep it on the battle for like a chapter or 2 and then Tobi is going to end up saying “… It is time!” and than when the Jubii is about to get revealed, it switches to the Kage vs. Madara crap

  38. @Tenrai I admire alot of your philosophical comments and usually agree but Kabuto’s physical death was really the issue with connected with flashbacks. We don’t know whether he will die or not. my whole point was that his death, physical death was not dependent on a flashback. people kept saying he was going to die and I really doubt they meant by starvation off panel or “existentially” in the whole changing a new leaf but in battle or in panel where we might see it. neither happened so yes I was right. No one was thinking Kabuto would change( and we still don’t know whether he will or not) Kishi left it ambiguous at best. Everyone was certain of the outcome and I was saying it wasn’t so certain. Kishi left the uncertainty. The assumption was… If a (Flashback) then b (physical death in battle or more immediate death in panels)….. Instead what happened A ( flashback) then B ( outcome uncertain). My point is that people shouldn’t jump to conclusions.

  39. I apologize for over generalizing …

  40. movie one-shot delete my above comment.

  41. i also think now the Tobito theory is most likely, but i cannot even begin to imagine why right now. like why would obito come to hate konoha so much and how did he become such an incredible ninja..not to mention the fact that he survived somehow haha. all i’m sayin is if tobi really is obito then kishi better show some very detailed explanations as to why he became the way he is

  42. IRA originals FTW haha

  43. So what happens if kabuto did accept his fate huh? He will still live right? ….

    Jumping over to Tobi, does he think he is Madara or what. Cause he keeps telling People “I am Uchiha Madara”

  44. So how many active users does this blog still have now? Like across all the mangas? I remember back in the beginning and on IRA there were probably 20-30 of us with random people showing up every once in awhile… Made for some hectic comment battles and debates.

  45. I believe obito is tobi and i really hope that we get a flashback on how he escape as for his face it could have been messed up when the rock crushed him

  46. @ashesreignited , agree with you on the Flasback doesn’t = death.
    My thoughts on kabuto are most likely that he will somehow remember what happened to him before he was found by “mother” and take in at orphanage. Thus he will decide his destiny from there and the road he’ll take.

    Also @ pein78, the whole “i’m Madara” ruse must have been like Tsunade said, A motivation for the whole shinobi to come together to confront such a terrible foe: So Tobi was only using the idea of Madara in order to achieve his goals and put his plan into motion.

    @ Dish, True as always, and we better get a great and detailed flashback as to how Obito was able to take on Minato and keep control of Kurama at that very young age.

    @ Flex, sadly, the number now is way less then it was back in the day when the comments section was ever growing and you had to scroll down a hell of a lot to reach the end of the debates, especially when You, Tenrai, Supertreak and Totalitarian would get into it and everyone would eventually jump on board and there would be 2 sides constantly at each others throats until the new breakdown would come up and Jeramiah would declare the winning side.

  47. wow dish, there are alot of ira OG around. btw to chapter 594……….. OMGOMGOMG finally its been an actual legit like year of chapters waiting for this next issue. the war started so long ago and the next issues are easily whats been keeping my interest (not that the lead up hasnt been AMAZING in alot of ways so dont take that as an absolute statement)

  48. @flex, id love to open the stage back up for more people but catching up on one piece from the begining is taking foreeeeever (i didnt read a single one until i got hooked a few months ago, then started with the anime too)

  49. assuming that the nine-tails attack on Konoha happened shortly after the Third Great Ninja War (probably 5-10 years difference or even less), I don’t see how Obito could have powered up and change his ideology so quickly. kishi better not pull this one out of his ass.

  50. Logging in from the sidelines… I just enjoy reading all your comments as much as every epic (or lousy) chapter since the good ol’ IRA days.

  51. Man Kishi has sure stirred up controversy, reviving the fans energy for a theory once considered nearly dead. Sasuke has been deflected from Naruto and Konoha and is going to meet some mysterious duo who would give the tell all of a lifetime. Itachi dies twice and we have the Ten Tails incomplete form about to make Madara look like a wimp. Orochimaru is back…. Sheesh! I don’t know how much more Kishi can pull out of his sleeves before all his has left to pull out is arm pit hair. I’m not sure I want to even comment until we see something more…

    All I have to say is that I think the Bijuu names given to Naruto might have something to do with stopping the Incomplete Nine Tales. Man I hope Hashirama and Tobi are the one’s Sasuke is going to get to talk with. Even the Sage’s sons would be cool. I doubt Koharu and Homura would really want to see Sasuke or Orochimaru. Unless Orochimaru somehow is going to put them through an interogation. They weren’t as bad as Danzou but they wouldn’t exactly hand over info to Sasuke willingly even if they knew… I also doubt how much they know. Again I think this is Kagame. Tobimara’s student, the only Uchiha medical ninja. Who knows….

  52. Hashirama and Tobimara*

  53. “Obito is Tobi” no way! It can’t be that poor Uchiha probably its his body not him entirely since he is not that tall and looks like a funny guy same characteristics with Tobi.

    Only thing that makes sense to me is If you Unscramble ” OBITO” the result is “TOBI” (minus the extra “O”)
    maybe obito changed his name blah blah blah if it is even him.

  54. And the Tobi = Obito flame is fueled again… Sigh.

    If Kishi really does reveal Tobi as being Obito it will be worse than Kubo trolling in Bleach. That’s how little sense it would make for Obito to be Tobi. Not only does it go completely against the character that we know as Obito, it also leaves massive plot holes. The most obvious being that, if Obito somehow survived, he would be the age of Kakashi and not the age of Danzou, as he’s shown himself to be. Unless off course, he’s a VERY heavy smoker…
    Then there’s the massive plot hole of him somehow going back in time and giving Nagato the Rinnegan. That is off course before he himself unlocks it within a few months time after unlocking only the first level of the sharingan. He probably used a hyperbolic time chamber AND a DeLorean…

    What we can say is that Tobi is most likely someone from Konoha, he wouldn’t know all of Konoha’s secrets if he wasn’t. He’s also most likely a real Uchiha as his use of the sharingan doesn’t affect him as much as it would someone else not of pure Uchiha blood. To me it’s most likely Tobi is Uchiha Kagami. The eyes and hair fit and if Kagami is still alive he would be Danzou’s age. Also, he probably experienced first hand the discrimination against the Uchiha from the Senju and most notably his sensei, Tobirama. That would make him pretty sympathetic towards Uchiha Madara.
    He could also have been the one who corrupted Orochimaru and used Orochimaru to experiment with Hashirama’s DNA.
    But that’s all just speculation.

    I just hope Tobi isn’t Obito. For the manga’s sake.

  55. @redbaron great point about kagami uchiha….i would give up on the world to if the person i called my sensei barred me and my clan off from the village…makes a lot of sense also the fact that he calls himself tobi after his master…the obito theory just doesnt add up

  56. @Red Baron, Agreed. Obito might Definately Ruin this manga he should just Rest In Piece or Rot In Hell (if there is heaven or hell)

  57. @ red baron i agree whole heartedly

  58. I for one hope Tobi is someone else, like Hashirama and Mito’s child or Hiruzen’s other son (Konohamaru’s dad) although the latter would be a bit strange seeing as Tobi killed Mito in cold blood when he stole Naruto at birth. No one, just kills there mother like that with no remorse or emotion what so ever.

    But Hashirama and Mito’s child could sustain a Sharingan and also a Rinnegan seeing he’s got such a powerful blood, and he would be compatible with the first’s DNA from the start, so using the flower regeneration goo made from Hashirama’s harvested cells would be the most compatible to him.

    It would also get the experience factor out of the way, being a match with Minato, and he would have known a lot about Konoha and it’s history.

    All in all this guy should be at least from Danzou’s generation in order for the story to keep it’s sanity, because let’s face it, no shinobi, even the same age or younger then Minato could take him on. I think only a hand full of people (alive) could have challenged Minato and be on par with him, I mean the dude took on the Raikage and Bee in there prime and almost bested both. In the next generation, after Minato, the only ones that stand out are Kakashi and Gai along with Kitsuchi and Darui, shinobi who are strong, no doubt about that, but not at the level Tobi presented himself.

    And now the only shinobi capable of great feats are Naruto and Sasuke, the rest being , meahhh,
    so in conclusion Tobi better not be a snot nose kid with something stupid to prove because that would ruin this whole manga.

  59. Tobi killed Mikoto* (Hiruzen’s wife)
    My bad.

  60. <___<

    There seems to be another pein on the blog @___@

    @ Tobi being Obito – I don't think you should say it will "ruin" a manga, I still believe that this is a new Tobi, and maybe Obito was taken by Madara/saved by him, and twisted to become the person he is now. Though I don't think it will ruin anything…

    @ Redbaron – That's a cool theory…

  61. @ Redbaron –

    Problem is though Tobi looks old, we only seen his eye… he has the same lines that Itachi had and that is it… It would explain why Tobi is basically a big lego block changing his arms etc, since Obito’s body was crushed in the falling stones his body could of been reproduced with the cells of the Zetsu…

    Also if there had been 2 Tobi’s then this going back in time may be meaningless? That Tobi is not a person per say but an ideology, an ideal for peace by giving up a name and a face, If you look deeper into this ideals you will see it runs almost concurrent with the old ways of thinking… That a Shinobi is a faceless tool and gains the identity of their villages being enemies because of being born in the mist sand etc villages. While this ideal is that behind a mask you are no one with no alliance to Village, lord etc just to the objectives of peace….

  62. “we only seen his eye… he has the same lines that Itachi had and that is it”

    No, Tobi clearly has multiple lines under his eyes like Danzou had. That’s why some believed Danzou to be Tobi.
    http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg839/scaled.php?server=839&filename=narutoold.jpg&res=landing
    Here you can clearly see 4 lines under his eye all across his cheek and they’re not like Itachi’s lines but clearly wrinkles in the face.

  63. kishi knows to troll more subtly than kubo. maybe tobi just lied to konan to provoke her.

  64. holy shit, i bet its obito’s father lol. he goes on a rampage after kakashi couldnt save his son.

  65. @ Redbaron – We see in that image, Danzou has lines next to his eyes as well as under his eyes, same with Chiyo she also has wrinkles placed next to her eyes to show age, while Tobi seems to have multiple lines but under his eyes only similar to the likes of Fugaku and Itachi, though I am still not convinced he is old as we think, Kakashi is well over the age of Itachi and them too. He should be going into his 30’s now…

    Though I am not saying Obito is Tobi, I am saying that it is possible… Also if Tobi is only Obito’s body then it would mean he has transferred his soul into Obito meaning the body ages faster then it normally would etc.

  66. @Baron

    I actually think it would make perfect sense if Tobi was Obito.

    Now, I know you argue about timelines and such, and question how he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, etc, but here’s my take on it.

    Firstly, you must remember that Tobi was pretending to be Madara for a very long time. When he spoke of forming Akatsuki and giving Nagato the Rinnegan, he was still acting the part of Madara, so, chances are, it was actually Madara who formed Akatsuki and who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Tobi, while Tobi simply took credit for himself once he adopted Madara’s namesake.

    I believe that Madara, the orignal, may have found Obito’s alive but broken body. I also believe that he used Hashirama cells to help reconstruct Obito’s body (which would explain why Tobi has a Zetsu-like physiology). Perhaps Madara was dying of illness or because of long term effects from his battle with Hashirama and realised that he needed a successor, so he raised Obito and nurtured his hatred for Konoha. He might have played on things like Rin’s death and how war took her away, which would also add to Obito/Tobi’s desire to end all wars, because he lost the person he loved to war. You question why his personality would be so different, but look at how drastically Nagato changed after Yahiko’s death, also caused by war. Wouldn’t it make sense that Obito might also undergo a similar change after losing the person he loved?

    Anyway, getting back on track, a deal was probably formed and Tobi was likely told about Nagato. After Madara’s death, once Nagato became strong enough, Tobi would have had Nagato resurect Madara using his Rinnegan – an act that would probably have cost his life – so that Madara could continue with his plans. When Naruto defeated Nagato, that option was lost so Tobi instead decided to take the Rinnegan for himself and continue the moon eye plan on his own.

    This would explain everything and pretty much cover all bases, from Tobi’s motives, to his jutsu (which is the same as Kakashi’s Kamui), to his looks and even how he seems to talk to Kakashi in such a personal way.

    Lastly, as for the lines under Tobi’s eyes, that could easily be caused by stress, or may even be scars from the reconstructing of Obito’s body.

  67. @ Tenrai i use to think the same thing but the whole reason nagato could revive the leaf was because they all had previosly died….if not he would have revive Jiraiya also

  68. revised bubble/bubblition:

    Orochimaru: Look Sasuke, when a ho’ comes back without your money, the ho’ must be taught a lesson.

    Caption: Keeping the pimp hand strong

  69. @Simplyantony

    If that’s true, then why did Madara immediately assume it was Nagato who ressurected him when he first came back to life?

    From Madara’s words when he first came back, it sounded like he expected Nagato to revive him at some point. He even said that Nagato had finally grown stronger, or something along those lines. It was only moments later that he realised that the nature of his ressurection was impure.

    Going by this, it may have simply been the case that Nagato was not ready to revive someone long dead yet and that he still needed to garner full control of his Rinnegan to do so. Still, as I said before, I believe that this was the original plan and that Tobi was meant to have Nagato revive Madara at some point.

  70. pretty pissed at the anime people they could have used this opportunity to extend the battles of the war but instead we have stupid filler episodes again…god i hate fillers so much

  71. @PeinAvenue, I didn’t mean like “RUIN” entirely Ruin Everything. It will just bore a whole in this arc i mean How is kakashi going to handle this if Tobi were Obito his Best friend this will lead to massive flashbacks & Talk no jutsu, which Kakashi will take it upon himself he is the one to defeat Obito(Tobi) since this is the path he chose, and thats merely impossible Kakashi one on one with Tobi(Obito), anyways its not like its going to happen cause when you think you got everything right kishi san slams us with another whole thing am just saying.
    Lastly. About the “Two pein(s) in one blog” i will change my username if possibly, don’t get it twisted am not on an identity crisis like Kabuto, Jashin knows you are the first one with the username “pein”.
    “Two Suns cannot occupy the sky” – some would say.

  72. @TENrai, “Tobi/Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan”
    i just don’t get how Tobi/Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, only if Tobi was lying and Madara clear things up. Cause in the flashback we saw Nagato activated the Rinnegan himself i don’t see how Tobi/Madara got something to do with it…i mean why the hell will Tobi/Madara give the Rinnegan to Nagato, a starving helpless orphan i mean its pointless, i mean if not for the Rinnegan he wouldn’t have gone on a rampage killing people in the name of pain. if it were someone like sasuke it were given to that would make a whole lotta sense. And where did Tobi/Madara get the Rinnegan =don’t tell Tobi/Madara stole it from the So6p. Madara said his sharingan evolved into the Rinnegan or whatever… So there are only Two samsara eye’s Madara’s and Nagato’s.

    I See You All with the Heavely sAmsara eye

  73. @Pein

    Nagato was an Uzumaki and thus a suitable host to house the power of the Rinnegan. When I say “gave” it to him, I’m not saying that Madara necessarily plucked it out of his own eyes and shoved it into Nagato’s. It could mean that Madara gave Nagato what was required to awaken it. In other words, the power of the oldest son (Uchiha) to compliment his power inheritted from the youngest as an Uzumaki.

    This would mean Nagato had what he needed to awaken the Rinnegan, but still needed to go through that last step on his own. I think the death of Nagato’s parents was also a set-up to help catalyze that transformation.

  74. As much as I feel like I wouldn’t like Tobito, once again, Ten puts out a theory that makes it sound oh so plausible haha.

    @redbaron- idk how you did it, but you successfully made a dragon ball z/back to the future reference AND made it flow with what you said.
    I applaud you hahaha..had me rolling when i read that

  75. @ pein781227 –

    I understand now what you meant, I thought you meant that Tobi Character would be destroyed by it lol but either way we gonna have talk no jutsu, and flashback 😛

    and about the two suns, its really not my intention, I truly not that arrogant to assume that I can dictate people as to what they want to call themselves ;)… Pein is an awesome character and pretty popular at that so having 2 people with the same name can’t be unexpected so you can keep the name as you like of change if you ever feel the need, I am not to worried when I refer to you I will just call you pein7 (or something like that) and others can call me p0a or something so we are not confused in a debate 😉

  76. @ pein781227 – Just curious how did you decide on username and numbers… It looks like it may be a date?

  77. @peinAvenue, pein is mostly what i use as username, FB, MYspace & all i use Pein..

    The number “781227” is a codename from the series kYle XY.
    And thanks for understanding.

    Tenrai, alright thats cool am relievied.

    (-_ -)

  78. @Tenrai i though mandara said this is not going as plan meaning it could be what u said or it could be something completely different he did not especify what the plan was however i could be wrong ill double check later

  79. http://www.mangapanda.com/road-to-naruto-the-movie/105 movie prequel.
    Bubblition: Why do people call me a pedophile? My Cute Kabuto-kun is 20 and you’re 16, Sasuke-kun.
    Caption: He does have a point.
    Perhaps Tobi is a failed experiment of Orochimaru gone Horribly wrong than normal. That was hijacked by Madara.

  80. @Everyone, Did you ever pause to notice that the Uchiha’s that possese the Sharingan are all Males? Madara,Itachi,Obito,sasuke…. what the hell???

  81. @pein78117 I still doubt that Tobi is obito because of the skin color in the fight with Konan in the Anime

  82. sry Pein78117 I meant that for Tenrai…..

    yeah we’ve never seen a female Uchiha except for Sasuke’s mom…

  83. @Ashes

    If you consider Obito’s body being reconstructed with White Zetsu cells, then his skin colour can quite easily be explained.

    Aside from that, I don’t recall his face in particular being that pale when he revealed himself partially to Sasuke.

  84. @Tenrai
    well actually in the manga his skin color is ambiguous (because of it being black and white , honestly i think Kishi was trying to keep a telling attribute off the table but was forced to deal with it in the Anime) when Tobi partially revealed himself in the anime to Sasuke, he was actually on the edge of candle light but his skin was quite a bit darker than Uchiha skin tone when you see it revealed in his fight with Konan during broad daylight. And people tried to justify it by the explosion but I can counter that with a number of different reasons why the explosion didn’t darken his skin but that it’s his natural skin tone. His arms were white because he had White Zetsu prothetics… I mean after his fight with the 4th hokage and his arm turned to goo( not including the fact his lost his arm like three times, once with Konan )

  85. Yeah, that’s why I think him being Obito is highly possible. Every detail can be accounted for in all honesty so there’s no reason I see that the theory is inplausible. You’ve just accounted for some of those details yourself.

    In saying that though, I’m not saying that other theories are not plausible, like the Uchiha Shisui or Kagami theories. Those too are also possibilities, however, I just find that the way Tobi talks to Kakashi is more personal. He sounds like he knows Kakashi personally, as opposed to being someone who’s only heard of him through the grapevine.

    I personally think it would be quite deep if Tobi was Obito. It would add a lot of depth to him as a villain because of the ambiguity of his morals and his actions.

    How does someone go from being the inspiration for Kakashi’s teachings about never abandoning your comrades, to someone who will make any sacrifice needed to achieve his goals? What kind of scars did war leave on him? These are the kinds of question I would be interested in exploring and would, as a whole, make me feel more connected to Tobi as a character. After all, if you had to choose between Tobi being Kagami, Shisui or Obito, which out of those three would you have the deepest connection to? Which of them would all of Naruto’s readers have the deepest connection to?

  86. @Tenrai I still have trouble with it being obito…. partially because the fans who just blithely have been saying it’s obito are going to be justified with their ridiculous evidence finally being proved to be true… so part of that is angry pride on my part. but another part of me wants to see Obito be the only good Uchiha out of the whole manipulating conniving or hate filled bunch. Sasuke is a hate monger and no matter how nobly Itachi suffered he manipulated Sasuke for his own purposes, Sasuke’s Dad wanted to rebel. Madara is a serious bad guy. We aren’t even sure if Madame Uchiha Sasuke’s mom is the one who gave away information about Naruto’s birth. So far every Uchiha we’ve seen except for Shisui or Obito. I just can’t see the transformation from Obito to Tobi and Obito wasn’t old enough to be going up against the fourth Hokage. Just because he knows Kakashi well doesn’t mean he knew him personally…. (I see the same trick on spy shows, where they observe everyone). sigh… the problem I have is that I really don’t have any strong evidence to discount the possibiility and there really are so few possible “characters the readers know”, “Uchiha” and “talks to Kakashi and Guy with familiarity”. gaaaah!!!! However it would be wild if we came to find out that it’s actually a bitter ( obviously flat chested) Rin who is affected by Obito’s loss and went crazy. I doubt it though because Kishi said he’s terrible at writing Female characters( another reason we never see a female Uchiha) .

  87. @ Ashes – “but another part of me wants to see Obito be the only good Uchiha out of the whole manipulating conniving or hate filled bunch. Sasuke is a hate monger and no matter how nobly Itachi suffered he manipulated Sasuke for his own purposes, Sasuke’s Dad wanted to rebel. Madara is a serious bad guy”

    I must object to this, in the end how much worse is the Uchiha to the Senju?
    Sasuke hates mostly because his entire clan was murdered women and children on the command of the “good guys” even if the 3rd Hokage didn’t speak the words himself he allowed it to happen none the less… This pretty picture Konoha builds is not as rosey as we all believe… Madara was the leader of his clan and was shunned for wanting more then to be the lessor of his closest rivals the Senju had all but eliminated the threat of Uchiha and called it wanting peace? The battle at Valley of the End, we not 100% sure why it happened but it was because Madara wished to leave, Hashirama tried to stop him there was a battle… Truly evil im not so sure…

    The rebels Fugaku and them, only happened after the 2nd Hokage put them into a small corner of the village and under ANBU watch, in the end revolutions in the real world would be fought for less… and why did this happen? Because the Senju wanted to keep power with themselves and their allies, Hashirama was the first Hokage voted into power the rest where placed their by the previous each a student of the last.

    So in the end we haven’t seen the full picture, men aren’t born evil but will be pushed there, you beat a dog and it bites back then you call the dog evil?

    The war’s fought, even Edo Tensei which is an evil jutsu was created by a “good guy” where by the command of the ‘good’ people of Konoha… 😛

  88. @Ashes

    In all fairness, we’ve only really gotten to know a grand total of five Uchiha to any reasonable degree. Those five include Itachi, Sasuke, Obito, Madara and Tobi (depending on whether he is Obito or not, that number might drop to four). I don’t include Fugaku or Shisui, etc, because we really didn’t know much about them as characters but from what I can tell, Fugaku was actually quite noble and so was Shisui, so I don’t see any evil sides to them to be honest.

    Now, I’m not sure about how you see it, but I don’t believe it’s fair to judge an entire race of people based on the actions of five, even if you find the actions of those five disagreeable. But, to counter your argument about the whole lot of the Uchiha being “conniving and hate mongering,” as you put it, I will remind you that the entire reason Madara exiled himself from Konoha in the first place was because the rest of his clan wanted peace while he promoted conflict and war. Now, would you say that wanting a life of peace is in any way hate-mongering? Would you say it’s an underhanded or conniving mindset to want to live a life free from war and conflict? No, I don’t see how it is.

    However, because Madara attacked Konoha, it was the Uchiha who were repressed and punished for it. An entire clan was treated unfairly for the actions of one man and they were discriminated against, isolated and suppressed. Was this because of their hate-mongering? No, it was because of one man’s hatred that an entire people was punished. In a way, you could even compare Konoha’s leader’s discrimination and view of the Uchiha to your own view stated in your comment. It is, I feel, completely unjustified.

    Now, tell me, if you were living under a form of suppression like that and you saw your family and your people living under that same oppression, knowing deep down that your children would never be able to achieve their fullest potential because they were always living under someone else’s thumb, would you simply accept it without any pause? Or would you fight for change? What the Uchiha did by trying to fight for their own equality, was not in any way conniving or vindictive. It was fair and it was just and it was only necessary because of the injustices caused by others, not of the Uchiha themselves. You say the Uchiha are conniving and hate-mongering, but all they wanted was peace. The did not create the circumstances that lead to their isolation, that was created by one man’s actions and Konoha’s leader’s largely unfair reaction to those actions.

  89. @Pein

    While I agree with most everything you said, I don’t want to turn the tables right on its head and make the entire Senju out to be monsters either, because that is just as bad as making all the Uchiha out to be monsters for the actions of a few. Your discrimination against the Senju because of the actions of one is no different from how Ashes views the Uchiha.

    Remember, only one Senju was actually involved in the law passed that suppressed the Uchiha, and that was Tobirama. As for the rest of Konoha, no-one aside from the elders and the Hokage himself knew of the Uchiha’s plight so you can’t say all of Konoha was involved in it, nor that all Senju were involved. However, your words seem to suggest that they all had a hand in it and that they are all to blame to some degree.

  90. @ashes We don’t know what would’ve happened if Obito was still alive. Besides it’s the opposite only Tobi and to a certain extent Madara are the bad Uchiha.

    @pein are you Sasuke in disguise? Because that’s what looks like. You make some good points However, Konoha is actually on the grey side like all the other villages. For example: Naruto’s childhood, apparently telling everybody about Kurama’s newest Jinchuuriki is more important than telling said orphan about his parents.
    About Tobirama pressuring the Uchiha into a corner. It came from Tobi whose like into twist the story to his liking.

  91. @ Tenrai – I agree, there is more a middle ground here, where neither is truly evil but some made evil choices and done things that each believed was for the greater good but to me there is too many patterns to just seem random, as it played out we have never seen a Nara, Hyuuga or Uchiha given any real sort of power… As we discussed this could easily be coincidence, as Minato has no ‘real’ link to the line besides Jiraiya, who was the student of the 3rd Hokage, he would of become the Hokage but instead another one of the 3rd students gets elected Tsunade… Even if this was all hear say and nothing more, there is a pattern unbroken for 5 generations now, just seems odd to me…

    1st Hokage – Elected as the chosen leader of the new village.
    Then 2nd Hokage – Brother of the 1st
    3rd Hokage – Long Time student of the Hokage, (longest living)
    Students: Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru (who would of been Hokage if not so crazy)
    4th Hokage – Minato trained by Jiraiya also the youngest Hokage (I believe)
    5th Hokage – Would of been Jiraiya, when he refused Tsunade was taken… <__<

    Like I said though both side are probably more gray then black or white but the picture we been given was of a 'good' Konoha that battled for peace and justice but in the end used smaller nations to wage war, murdered innocent children in their sleep… As evil as the Uchiha seem and as Sasuke seems he never killed a child so far, Whether it be Senju, or the other higher ups, my point is valid that a pretty picture has been drawn on their evil actions…

    Economically they even starved out the Sand Village to a degree but that neither here nor there 😛

  92. @ kanton – lol your hate for Sasuke is legendary but what I was saying is that Sasuke character can be an annoying emo b#$ch but he has only truly killed people that went after him, friend or foe but not little children in their sleep and not even having the decency to do it themselves the village used an Uchiha to do it just to add insult to injury, this villain Sasuke is can not compare to the evils taken up by the Village he wishes to destroy….

    True it was only Tobi but in the end, he is the only one to speak of these events to most others it is covered in lies, Konoha allowed Itachi to be treated as a traitor forever hated etc. So this is Konoha’s response, nothing is their fault they only do good etc etc. Propoganda 😉

    (To avoid reply from Tenrai… no not all of Konoha, but I can’t just list the people involved each time, to me this is war. In war we do take individual people its groups so I group them but I do not mean that because one is evil they all are but that their leaders acted for them and those actions where evil and to the benefit of Konoha etc, sort of like Nazi Germany, we can all say they evil but not all Germans where evil so we say, Nazi Germany was evil and a portion of them maybe good as some did evil)

  93. http://shannaro.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/senju-vs-uchiha/

    My hatred for the Senju dates back to 2009 and still bare the same idea’s

  94. @Pein

    Remember, although it was one of Konoha’s leaders that enticed the murder of the Uchiha, it was an Uchiha who committed the act by choice as well. Ironically, both sides took part in the destruction of the Uchiha, intentionally or not, and therefor, you can say neither side is necessarily evil. No-one said a pretty picture was painted for what happened. The difference is that no-one in Konoha knows the truth and if they did, the picture might not be so pretty after all.

    Why do you think Itachi wanted to keep it a secret? It wasn’t just to protect the Uchiha name, but also to prevent the strife that would undoubtedly befall Konoha should the truth ever be made known.

    Also, to make it clear, all ninja villages did what they felt they needed to to survive, not just Konoha. Remember that the Sand attacked Konoha along with the sound because they were desperate and the Kazekage at the time even went as far as using his own son as a weapon, something I’d hardly consider morally sound.

    Kumo tried to kidnap the Hyuuga Heiress and the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki to further their goals even though they already had two Jinchuuriki of their own, which means they obviously wanted to tip the balance of power in their favor. One of these events lead to Hiyashi’s death when Kumo called out for blood because Konoha defended itself.

    Even Ame’s leader, Hanzou, went as far as joining up with Danzou to eliminate all possible threats to his power, in return for helping Danzou take control of Konoha, which is what lead to Yahiko’s death, so not everyone in the hidden rain was innocent either. And need I remind you that once Nagato took over, he wasn’t exactly an angel himself. He also committed genocide when he destroyed everything related to Hanzou, including subbordinates, their families and even their children. As the manga stated clearly, not even babies were spared. <____<

    In the end, there are no villages with squeaky clean records and no matter how much you try to depict Konoha as being the worst of them, I just have a hard tim buying that they were any worse than all the others.

    Also, your last comment about your hatred for the Senju proves my point. This is all based on the actions of one or two people, but suddenly their entire clans are evil. Just as you felt the need to defend the Uchiha, I also feel I should similarly defend any other cases where things are judged unfairly.

  95. first off Pein0avenue and Tenrai i never justified that the Senju were all good or even that what Konoha might’ve done to others as all rosey. I think we can honestly say that desiring peace is not enough to make one “good” obviously intentions didn’t make Danzou a hero for wanting peace or whatever (who I do consider evil). I also debate the goodness of the Second Hokage just by looking at his students and their meddling, specifically Danzou and the Konoha elders and his use of Edo Tensei. However I’ve reserved judgement on that until I get more backstory.

    Tobi also wants peace and look at what he’s done to attain it. Evil, yes evil. willingness to kill a whole village to obtain peace, even Pein who changed in the end was willing to destroy a whole village to obtain peace. His vengeance, his “justice”. is Pein evil? yes did he suffer, sure vengeance comes out of suffering or even perceived suffering but that justifies killing others? or to enforce peace on the world by violence or through manipulation? yes evil

    My point isn’t that The Uchiha are all evil and the Senju are good but that the Uchiha characters we are presented with a small part of all the Uchiha clan have been mostly people who are more intent on doing right even though it ends up either in physical war or if they must use some form of manipulation to gain peace. Kishi hasn’t revealed to us, whether or not the Uchiha were being supressed or if they were just naturally cursed because of the Sage of sixth paths older son’s emnity resentment and natural tendency to fight. We don’t know if someone else manipulated them and started this fight or if they just rebelled…. so I take back Fugaku. Still my point is that among the few Uchiha we see ( which may or may not represent the whole clan, how would we know?) Again when I say the whole lot I don’t mean the whole clan, I mean the small slice of Uchiha that we are given by Kishi. ( which leads a disproportionate lack of depiction of any “good’ Uchiha ) Are the slice of Uchiha characters we see a Synecdoche, a part that represents the whole? An Author can only suggest how the whole clan is either by back story or by a reasonable slice of the population. An example is to make a smaller representation which is similar in to proportion to what’s on a larger scale. Are most of the people black in the Cloud? Is it a Synecdoche?

    Also you have to understand some of what I said was bleeding off from the hate I feel towards the Tobi theory. Some Obito Fans had the barest of evidence for a while and were proclaiming no uncertainity or other possibilities.

    This as good as any to tell you guys I’m leaving the blog, not because of our debates, I don’t have any resentment. I just made a choice a while back that I’ve been laxed about. you guys are pretty awesome. Katonkage Tenrai, Cool Beans, Pein0avenue, Dish and Eke. I hope the ending is what you are looking for. I know that I feel like Naruto is coming to an end. i gotta go but I enjoyed the time here alot. If only half the Naruto fans were as cool as you guys…

  96. I almost forgot Eugen.

  97. Humph…this mostly Madara’s fault he should’ve sat his arrogant ass and let the Boss(Hashirama) lead. And again why in the world did Tobirama create Edo Tensei? To revive his brother? Or he used it against the Uchiha years ago.

    @Ash
    O.o

  98. @pein To tell you the truth. I don’t hate Sasuke too much anymore. After thinking about it, his obsession with revenge could have been avoided, if not for his “genius” brother Itachi using Tsukoyomi on the poor bastard. Itachi pretty much ignored his parent wishes because he wanted to die.
    @Ashes Btw my is KaN tonkage
    @tenrai that’s usually the case considering discrimination and xenophobia. Five people of the same group of people do something horrible and then the whole group of people are blamed as a whole.

  99. I apologize KaNtonkage 🙂

    @ Pein781227 it seems a bit dubious. we know so little about the guy who was messing around with powerful forces like Edo Tensei.

    also I’m not leaving the blog for a couple days but I probably won’t be doing any posting after like tuesday.

  100. Ashes- sad to see you go, you have always been a great contributor to the blog and just want to say good luck to you in everything and I appreciate what you said. I’m sure everyone else feels the same way.

  101. @everyone: How many people has Sausked killed? Not including the White Zetzu.

  102. @wiseman a few samurai nobody.

  103. Sasuke never killed anybody because Kishi wouldn’t let Sasuke out of the cave, distracted him from the Konoha 11 with Itachi and sent him on this “side quest” called the search for the dynamic duo ( not that I haven’t enjoyed the new possibilities). I have no doubt Sasuke would’ve been willing to kill someone, just the circumstances Kishi uses to sidestep the possibility of Sasuke of actually killing anyone. Kishi keeps Karin alive by having Sakura right there when Sasuke stabbed her ( oh a lucky lucky she’s also a Uzumaki which has a “self -healing” ability or just a greater resistance to dying.) The only people his killed so far is Danzou and Orochimaru…. Oh wait he didn’t even do that, Orochimaru is alive again!.

  104. @Dish thanks

  105. @ashes also Danzo killed himself.
    Also you will be missed

  106. @Ashes

    Why are you leaving? T___T

    I always enjoyed your insightful input on the blog and your unique view of things, so you will certainly be missed both as a contributor and as a person, but may I ask the reason as to why you are leaving? Is it really necessary to go for good?

    Perhaps there are circumstances I am unaware of but hopefully despite everything, you’ll be able to pop in from time to time.

  107. @Tenrai

    this blog isn’t really a place to discuss it and I appreciate you asking( it’s nice to be missed), multiple reasons but I don’t want the blog littered with debate outside of the Naruto world.

  108. Let us not forget that when Kakashi died during the Pain Invasion arc, it showed him seeing off his fellow/former teammates before meeting up with his deceased father. If Obito was still alive, he wouldn’t have been there. And seriously, the right half of Obito was crushed by a giant boulder!

    I mean literally, Obito was half the man he used to be…literally! Nothing can fix that. He was a goner! So my money is on Kagami Uchiha.

  109. @Ash, Awwww even though i don’t know you much ,i know you are one of the most ACTIVE & CONTRIBUTIVE to this Blog. GOODLUCK In Life NIISAN.

  110. the only thing i dont like with the obito theory is why he didnt get personal with the fourth hokage obito’s sensei like all the naruto battles with their teachers like pein, oro, and sasuke. This was tobi’s first appearance so maybe that would of let everyone know he was obito and the fact kishi actually introduced obito in kakashi’s story before part 2 and first time tobi revealed his sharigan to the outside world besides akatsuki was against kakashi but i dunno all the teacher vs student battles have been personal and if it was obito as tobi he would’ve got personal with the 4th, damn besides killing his wife and trying to kill the village haha damn it could be him but he seemed knowleged like the entire ninja world but not like he seen it before or is that why he had chains . He was fast and all but showed no ninjitsu or taijutsu so can’t say he was that strong, thats why i can’t wait to actually see him in action. F-ck and it was Minato who first called him Madara which he kind of stuck with it to actually go his hair i dont know for sure like you all.Love this blog for awhile finally wrote something haha

  111. @sage well maybe he didn’t want to give himself away but still a great point.

  112. “After all, if you had to choose between Tobi being Kagami, Shisui or Obito, which out of those three would you have the deepest connection to? Which of them would all of Naruto’s readers have the deepest connection to?”

    None of the above. We know nothing about Kagami and only very little about Shisui and Obito. Also, if Tobi is Obito that will only have relevance to Kakashi and nobody else. I think Tobi’s mask is hiding the identity of someone of significance to everyone (or at least a lot of people) in Konoha, not just Kakashi. Gai might remember Obito as well but that’s about it. Everyone else will just be like; “Right, and who are you exactly?”. Madara is a villain everybody knows, so is Orochimaru. Obito can’t even stand in the shadows of the legacies they left behind (the same problem exist with the Kagami theory).
    Also, if Obito is Tobi how come he was completely unaware of how Minato’s Hiraishin works. He knew Minato could use it but he was completely taken by surprise when Minato used the tagged kunai. Obito would know that kunai would spell trouble.
    I’m also not too sure about the double Tobi theory. For a time I believed that to be the case as well especially because the Tobi we see today and attacked Konoha and Minato was completely different from the Tobi who manipulated the 4th Mizukage and who revealed himself to Kisame. But it was the same Kisame who later identified Konoha attacking Tobi to be the same as 4th Mizukage manipulating Tobi. If those Tobi’s are the same than we’re back at the back to the future theory because when Kisame met Tobi Zabuza was only a child. Kisame became a member of the 7 swordsmen of the mist before Zabuza murdered his fellow students. Seeing as Zabuza is about the same age as Kakashi that means Kakashi (and Obito) was a child at that time as well. So Tobi was already a grown man. Or maybe I’m just not thinking 4th dimensionally.

    Anyways, I do believe Madara and Tobi we’re working together and that Nagato was purposely guided by Tobi to one day resurrect Madara but I just can’t see how he could be Obito. It just doesn’t add up.

    Also, I’d like to point out Kisame believed Tobi to be Madara even after Tobi revealed his face to Kisame. If Kisame was looking at the face of a child or a teenager he wouldn’t have believed Tobi.

  113. Ashes, I’m sorry to see you go, seeing as you were a very objective person on this blog and always commented with a clear view of every debate topic.
    I respect your reasons for leaving and I’m not gonna insist on the topic seeing as you don’t want to disclose the reason. But I hope you pop in from time to time and show to everybody that this was a true community where everyone had a voice and that voice was heard.

    Cheers.

  114. @ Sage, welcome to the Blog, we hope you will be posting a lot more from now on seeing as there are a lot of people @ here who read the blog.

    I for one hope every reader joins in and posts what’s on there mind because that’s what makes us awesomeness.

    Also good insight on you previous post.

  115. @Baron

    “None of the above. We know nothing about Kagami and only very little about Shisui and Obito.”

    We know much more about Obito than the other two thanks to the Kakashi Gaiden, which means out of the three, he would be the one character we have the deepest connection to.

    “Also, if Obito is Tobi how come he was completely unaware of how Minato’s Hiraishin works. He knew Minato could use it but he was completely taken by surprise when Minato used the tagged kunai. Obito would know that kunai would spell trouble.”

    i don’t see why Obito would know everything there is to know about Minato just because he was his Jounin Sensei. Need I remind you that Naruto only found out that Kakashi could use the Rasengan three years after he became his sensei and that it was quite a shock to him. I don’t see why it’s so surprising that Obito wouldn’t have necessarily known all the fundamentals of Minato’s Hiraishin, especially if he hadn’t seen it used much in battle. I bet there are many jutsu of Kakashi’s that Naruto has yet to learn of.

    “Also, I’d like to point out Kisame believed Tobi to be Madara even after Tobi revealed his face to Kisame. If Kisame was looking at the face of a child or a teenager he wouldn’t have believed Tobi.”

    If Tobi was Obito, Kisame would have been looking at the face of a 30-year-old man, not a child or a teenager. In any case, if Kisame had any prior inclination as to what the real Madara looked like beforehand (and anyone who had studied their history or seen the statues at the Valley of the End would know that), then he would have already been able to identify that Tobi was not, in fact, the real Madara, which suggests that either Kizame was speaking sarcastically at the time or that he really was clueless either way which means he’d be easy to deceive.

    In any case, I just don’t really see why Kagami would know Kakashi personally or why he would speak about him in such a personal way. However, I’m not disputing that Tobi could be Kagami, or even Izuna, as both are also plausible, but I don’t think Obito should simply be written off either simply because it’s something you don’t want.

  116. @Eugen thanks I enjoy your posts, I’m greatful for my time here. You all make me think more clearly by forcing me to try and put into words what seems easily a concept in my mind but it a bit of a struggle to organize on “paper”/text.

    @ Tenrai

    being that the fourth’s reputation was the based off his consistent use of hirashin ( the Yellow Flash), the likelihood that Obito wouldn’t have seen it in battle seems a bit of a stretch. I think he would’ve seen it enough in battle and spent enough time with the Fourth to know he used tags to teleport. Heck even his enemies probably knew that much. So Baron has a interesting point.

    @Baron

    However knowing about the tags doesn’t necessarily mean he would’ve anticipated him sticking one to the back of his head. So knowledge of the technique doesn’t mean he could anticipate the Fourth’s creativity.

  117. @Ashes

    I never said that he hadn’t seen it, after all, he saw it when Minato used it to save Kakashi. What I mean is that just because he’s seen it, doesn’t mean he knows everything about it.

    Remember when Minato gave them the Kunai with the seal on it and told the that if they were ever in trouble, they should throw it? At the time, they didn’t seem to understand what it meant and thus, it is suggested that they didn’t know how the seals worked.

    It was only after Kakashi woke up after he and RIn were rescued that Minato actually explained how he got to them and how they were saved. This in itself suggests that none of Minato’s students actually knew exactly how his Hiraishin worked. Considering Obito wasn’t there when that was explained, he never actually learned of it in the first place.

  118. Ten , Kakashi is only 30 now so at the time of suikazan’s death at the hands of kisame Obito, who’s the same age as Kakashi, would have been somewhere at his early 20’s. Seeing as we’ve seen tobi with short hair since his intro, some 3-4 years before the present day in naruto we can assume that tobi was 20-25 at that time because the 4th mizukage was still alive granted he must have died at the start of the formation o team 7 because that’s when the jinchuriki where being hunted fact known by jiraiya.

    So kisame was actually looking at a young man back then also tobi wa a bit weird in the regard that we’ve first seen him, chronologically speaking, with short hair when he fought Minato then his hair was long when he met kisame and after that the same when Itachi found him and finally back to short in the present.

    Now if you do the math, if tobi where Obito he would have been 14 years old when he took on Minato, now you might argue that Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest shinobi out there at only 16 going on 17 years, but I would bet no 14 year old can stand a chance against the strongest Kage and also keep control over the kyuubi while doing it.

    That to me is the only argument I use to tell myself Tobi isn’t Obito.

  119. Humph am now i’m forced to go with the “Tobi is Obito theory” seems like thats the best/ possible option that will/may happen. I hope kishi doesn’t drop another thing proving us Wrong Left.

    – P>781227

  120. To me, the strangest thing about the Tobi/Obito theory is that it took so long to come to a conclusion. I love the details you guys are hashing out about it because it just shows that the storyteller has been planning this for some time now. Keeping this kind of story going for so long, and having something building up for this much time is pretty amazing. Plus, I don’t think any other stories in Naruto have been prefaced and foreshadowed this much – and if they have, they haven’t done it without any pretext.

    For example. We saw flashbacks many times of Itachi killing off his parents. But we always had it in context. It would be like showing Itachi killing his parents after only briefly meeting any of the Uchiha. Perhaps the only context was that we knew Kakashi a bit. When we saw Obito die, we were kind of asking ourselves – why is this part of the story again? Why this side story? Is it because Kakashi is awesome? It was like, “Yeah that’s a nice story, shows more of Kakashi’s character.” Then we moved on. But, all of the sudden it is coming back again. This has been one huge story arc. These types of things don’t happen very often.

  121. @Everyone, can you still remember when sasuke first met Tobi in the anime? LoL when sasuke’s sharingan came in contact with Tobi’s, Amaterasu was unleashed on him, he screamed like a baby LmFao, i laughed real hard. i guess Amaterasu flames are very painful xdd! I still don’t know how he possibly survived.

  122. @Eugen, thanks and that is the only thing about obito is tobi is bugging me but all tobi did was try to warp him like he does everytime, no real strength yet shown jutsu wise thats why i can’t wait to see actual battle from him.

    Everytime he fights he looses a limb dont know for sure if its the arm crushed by obito but or course he’s strong or overconfident in that he’s “The Uchiha Flash” or he knows he can put his body back together from what Madara gave to him, Zetsu. This is the only way it makes sense to me if Madara who gave that brat Nagato who he calls, the rinnegan and saved a broken near death obito and twisted him to his liking which happens to all in Naruto. Madara who first got cells from the 1st hokage in battle and created Mazou which only i think someone with the rinnegan can control which is rooted from the 1st cells fixed obito and broke a broken kid. Obito was all about heroes in this world like the white fang and from the outcome of war like “Sharigan Kakashi” and hopeful, Madara twisted it as there are no heros just tools for war and only way is the Moon’s eye plan. Madara told obito everything in a way like tobi to twist his views to extract revenge on the Uchiha and leaf village and the whole shinobi world as peace. Madara and Tobi set up Akatsuki before his death or just Tobi from all the knowledge left from Madara who knows everything pretty much he wrote the Uchiha tablet. Kagami would of known about Edo from the 2nd i think and why would Shisui give his eye who would even stop Tobi to Itachi. The only thing is why Madara would do this but to be ressurected and needed allies he warped to his following but i don’t see Madara hiding for years but he did if he was around during the Third Great Ninja War which is suggested.

  123. Now a kid who was trained by the 4th and Madara would be a challenge for the ninja world @_@

  124. @pein78 it’s because it was a fire tech. No one dies from a fire tech.

  125. *returns from weeks* @Pein781227
    It was stated the mangekyou sharingan can smother amaterasu flames, that is how Tobi got rid of the flame and how he survived.

    @Obito theory
    I read all the facts I was going to say but i’ll say them again just so it can be in my collective thoughts
    1. Kisame recognized Tobi as the previous mizukage
    2. Even though Tobi got personal with Kakashi and Gai, he didn’t get personal with Minato. He actually seemed distant from Minato as if he despised him but Obito respected and liked Minato. Tobi was saying things like “So this is why you’re the 4th hokage” as if he knew OF Minato but didn’t know him.
    3. Time doesn’t add up, Madara knows who Tobi is, i’m sure Madara wouldn’t team up with a child Obito for world domination. Even when Nagato was still alive he took orders from Tobi, so why would Konan be so surprised when he stated he was the one to form akatsuki idk…
    4. SInce Konan was going to die anyways, why not tell the truth? We don’t know what happened BEFORE Nagato awakened the rinnegan. We always see different flashbacks revealing for of a story, the first uchiha massacre we saw Itachi just kill off the entire clan but then more flashbacks came showing Tobi helped. he killed his parents with tears in his eyes and cried. Tobi could’ve did something to Nagato before that awakened incident. We didn’t know of Tobi’s involvement with the kyuubi until the story was told by Naruto’s mother. Nagato remembering Tobi, could’ve persuaded him and Yahiko to form Akatsuki, I believe Tobi’s claims are true that he gave Nagato the rinnegan in some way.

  126. In conclusion to the above statement, how could Obito be Tobi if the claims he made were true, ALSO if he was the mizukage when Kisame killed that other swordsman… again his age doesn;t add up, also even though this 5th statement isn’t really supported but something to think on… Tobi had a REALLY deep voice when he fought Minato, a 14yr old boy with that kind of voice is awkward……..

    @Senju vs Uchiha
    i seen the facts already but i’ll restate
    1. The older brother (Uchiha) started the conflict with the younger brother (Senju) much like the Kane and Able conflict in the bible where Kane was jealous of his brother and killed him because Able was peace loving and was chosen while Kane was more of physical power and was not chosen…
    2. The Uchiha forced Madara to sign the peace treaty to form the alliance with Senju not Madara himself and the Uchiha also agreed that Hashirama should be Hokage.
    3. Madara challenged Hashirama to a fight and they went to the valley of the end to fight it out
    4. Tobirama gave them control over the police force to give them some power (coming to even grounds) even though the council didn’t trust them.
    5. All nations and religions have skeletons
    6. The senju overall objective was peace through love, which is why Hashirama split the bijuu power apart to create a balance of power
    7. I think Tobirama invented the jutsu to prevent having to see casualties from his own village in battle so instead he would use undead to fight a lot of battles (as last resort possibly) but jutsu isn’t evil, it is the user that uses the jutsu.
    8. The Uchiha were isolated after the Kyuubi attack due to suspicion and it was a smart thing to do because even though we the readers know what happened, they didn’t. the 3rd who was raised by two senju didn’t want to annihilate the Uchiha, but Danzou went behind his back. It is shallow to say that the senju just didn’t want to get their hands dirty and that they were just being fake people because they weren’t as you could see from Hashirama’s actions. Danzo had Itachi do it so that everyone wouldn’t see the “senju vs Uchiha rivalry” spark up again causing a war from that ideal alone so they used an Uchiha to exterminate the Uchiha.

  127. @Amateratsu cast
    “It was stated the mangekyou sharingan can smother amaterasu flames, that is how Tobi got rid of the flame and how he survived.”
    Maybe he has someone/something captured in his dimension that can uncast amateratsu, Obito maybe? I think Tobi has a personality disorder and acquires emotions from people he encounters, even absorbing their personalities, thats why he behaves so personal with so many people from the past. Im almost sure it has somethign to do with Zetsu as well…
    I believe pein and I think similar in that regard… right bro?

  128. “We know much more about Obito than the other two thanks to the Kakashi Gaiden, which means out of the three, he would be the one character we have the deepest connection to.”

    And that connection is shallow at best. Especially when compared to Madara or Orochimaru.
    Like I said, Obito being Tobi would only shock Kakashi and maybe Gai. Why would the rest of the world care?

    “If Tobi was Obito, Kisame would have been looking at the face of a 30-year-old man, not a child or a teenager.”

    Kisame met with Tobi around the time Obito died. Probably even before Obito died considering it was before Zabuza killed his fellow students but since there are no specific times mentioned in the manga we’ll say it’s around the time after Obito’s death. Therefor if Obito was Tobi Kisame would have seen the face of a teenager and would not have believed Tobi to be Madara. Kisame saying Madara should have been dead clearly indicates Kisame knows who Madara was.

    “In any case, I just don’t really see why Kagami would know Kakashi personally or why he would speak about him in such a personal way.”

    You have to consider it’s a great possibility Kagami, like Danzou, became somewhat of a village elder and acted as an advisor while working on his plan to take control of Konoha from the shadows. With that, his knowledge of Kakashi could have been just as great as Sarutobi´s and Danzou´s.

    Anyways, I´m not sold on any of the mentioned suspects. Everyone of them has got something that doesn´t fit with Tobi. Obito is too young and insignificant, Kagami is also insignificant (as far as we know now) and Shisui doesn´t fit at all. Tobi attacked Konoha when Shisui was still a boy and Shisui tried everything to keep Konoha save, inlcuding giving Itachi one of the, if the not thé most powerful genjutsu. Something Tobi would definitely not do unless he knew it would benefit him greatly.

    Also, if Obito is Tobi then explain the following.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
    Kyuubi clearly recognizes Tobi and is visually angered realizing Tobi is gonna control him. Seeing as Kyuubi has gone from Madara to Mito to Kushina how does Obito fit in?

  129. @ 1red I agree with that Kyuubi recognizes Tobi but what if not only the 1st hokage cells but also Madara cells tobi has, if it is Obito reconstructed as a fallen ninja by a weaken Madara. Wasnt Kakashi an anbu at the time and who would not know Obito if everyone knows Kakashi as the copy ninja and maybe how he got the sharingan from Obito. The age thing is huge but Kisame meeting Tobi doesnt mean he couldve been under a genjustu like the mizakage to believe it was Madara even Itaichi prevented Sasuke to look at it and why wait so long to tell him? Tobi is like a Kabuto with who he is complex which could tie in to a confused tobi who could be Obito becoming complete.

  130. Isn’t being a true ninja is deception, why would you want to be known until unneeded?

  131. @ Greyfox –

    1. Though I see the sentiment here, what I try to bring forward was that the in the conflict for the power both side had fought both sides had shed blood in the end, justifying the one as love and the other as hunger for power but in the end there would be killing by both sides or there would be no war?
    2. There is no real proof of this but this should of created an even more trustworthy Uchiha clan as they separated themselves from the person who would be a traitor later, so when the Kyuubi attacked they blamed the Uchiha (who had forced a peace earlier?)
    3. Again this we don’t know, the battle may of been Madara trying to escape the village and we had a Naruto Sasuke thing happening, also if Madara was evil he wouldn’t go so far out to fight Hashirama, he would of fought in the Village or nearby?
    4. Tobirama gave them a hollow position, made fact by once the Uchiha had been killed the Military Police just disappeared, if it had been an important position then it would of had to be filled correct, in the end though they had some power the ANBU still act as the ‘real’ police…
    5. Agreed
    6. The Senju are not a bad clan, I just think they like all the others in the end, they fought wars, killed people, etc this we only want love is crap to me. Hashirama was probably one of the best people in the manga similar to Naruto I think…
    7. The jutsu itself is created by the user killing a living person… That is sacrifice is it not… All jutsu are created to kill but this one brings back people from the grave by killing living ones, now was it his own people or was it the enemy prisoners he took etc.
    8. They where placed under watch even before the Kyuubi attack as I recall… But still you plan to kill an entire peoples for the sake of maybe 1… They had no proof that the Uchiha where involved in the attack etc. Even though they didn’t know the whole story they shouldn’t of let it fester, they placed the Uchiha in a small corner and began ostracizing them from society for years until finally killing them… Now lets say you are in the Uchiha position, you start something and you help just as much, fight in all the war etc etc. Then when the end comes you get a small peice of what you once had, so you happy but still bear a grudge, then something bad happens you have no involvement in and your whole family is placed under watch like you the criminal and from there you never go forward, for years you are kept seperate from everyone else and treated like traitors, so you begin to think ey maybe life will be better if we stood up for ourselves… This is the story in so many history books this is how the French, Russian revolutions began, How South Africa was freed from Apartheid, How black american’s fought for their freedom… this is the story but only here the results are different.

  132. @ Kanton – “it’s because it was a fire tech. No one dies from a fire tech.”

    Lol remember when a Kunai could kill someone… Last one that was killed by Kunai was Yukio <__<

  133. @Baron

    “And that connection is shallow at best. Especially when compared to Madara or Orochimaru.
    Like I said, Obito being Tobi would only shock Kakashi and maybe Gai. Why would the rest of the world care?”

    I’m not talking about how the characters in Naruto would react, I’m talking about the connection these characters have to us readers. Obito had a few chapters dedicated to him which allowed us to get to know him, his nindo, his personality and his mannerisms. What do we know of Kagami and Izuna, for example? Jack zero, that’s what. The only thing we know about them is what they look like – to some respects – but other than that, we haven’t so much as read a single line of dialogue from them.

    You can’t rationally compare that to how much we know about Obito, which even if it isn’t much, is still way more than we know of the other “flashback extras.”

    “Kisame met with Tobi around the time Obito died.”

    How do you know that? We don’t know when or how recently the Third Mizukage reigned over the Hidden Mist. We also don’t know how long ago Kizame killed his predecessor to take the Samehada. Without any specific times mentioned, you’re really just basing this little detail on a general assumption and nothing more. For all we know, those events happened as little as ten or five years ago, especially when you consider that Mei, the current Mizukage, seems pretty new to the job.

    “You have to consider it’s a great possibility Kagami, like Danzou, became somewhat of a village elder and acted as an advisor while working on his plan to take control of Konoha from the shadows. With that, his knowledge of Kakashi could have been just as great as Sarutobi´s and Danzou´s.”

    Yes that is a possibility, but if that was the case and if he was so well known as a higher up, why hasn’t anyone in Konoha considered him as a suspect for Tobi’s identity? In any case, I think you should read what Tobi says again, because you seem to fail to see how personal it was.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/594/8

    Note: He says “Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily.” This isn’t something an elder would say about a shinobi he has knowledge of, but no direct relationship with. This is something someone would only say to someone they know personally given the context of what is being said. It implies knowledge of Kakashi’s mannerisms and even suggests that Tobi has spoken to Kakashi a number of times, otherwise, how would he be able to say something like that?

    Then when Gai asks who he is, he says “You don’t remember faces, so what’s the point in telling you?” This again suggests that Tobi has personal knowledge of Gai as well, seeing as how we readers know Gai always forgets people, a trait he’s probably had since childhood. If Tobi knew of that trait, he must have known Gai personally as well and considering how Gai always thought of himself as Kakashi’s rival, there’s no surprise that Obito would have known him as well.

    “Also, if Obito is Tobi then explain the following.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8

    Well, that’s actually not too difficult when you consider that a Bijuu is aware of everything that happens around its host, like how Kurama remembered the fight between Naruto and Sasuke in their childhood. Kurama would have known Obito and probably would have been able to recognize his chakra as well, considering he was the student of Minato’s and had probably been around Kushina quite a number of times as well.

    Still, Kurama could be recognizing someone else, but how is anyone else any more likely to be recognized than Obito, unless it was actually Madara himself? You can’t write off the possibility that he could have quite easily identified Obito.

    Now to ask you a question. What style of Jutsu does Tobi’s Space time jutsu most closely relate to? How do you explain the similarities between his jutsu and Kakashi’s Kamui? They even look identical and function in an almost identical manner, the only difference is that Tobi know’s how to absorb himself with the technique while Kakashi only knows how to absorb things around himself.

    Tobi appears similar to Obito, his hair is the same, his jutsu is similar and he uses his right eye to perform that jutsu, the same eye of Obito’s that still remained in his body after he gave the other to Kakashi. His body can most easily be explained by considering that Obito was crushed and then reconstructed with white Zetsu (hashirama) cells, which would both explain his constitution and his ability to use the Izanami, which requires both Senju and Uchiha powers to use. Are all of these just coincidences?

    Yes, perhaps Kishi is just trying to throw us all off with these little snippets, I have deeply considered that possibility and I know very well that Tobi may very well NOT be Obito. But there’s also a possibility (note, I said possibility, not certainty) that Tobi is actually Obito. I see no reason why he can’t be and I’ll stick to that feeling. If I end up being proven wrong, I’ll accept it gracefully, but if I don’t stick to my guns and he does end up being Obito, I’ll regret it. Lol.

  134. Wait. After everything I’ve said above, a question suddenly popped into my mind. If Kurama had already recognized Tobi just before he was mind controlled and ripped from Kushina’s body, then why doesn’t he just tell Naruto and company who Tobi is? Lol. O___o

    Did Tobi’s genjutsu wipe his memory or something? Or is this just a plotkai?

  135. @Nike, Right Niisan.

    @_@
    well well well, If Tobi were Obito then this fight is kakashi’s as i said earlier. Naruto & Bee would just watch? I just hope Naruto doesn’t go to the kages Rescue i’ll be forever dissapointed that even the so called 5 strongest people of their respective villages need a hand on this situation. Even though they told Naruto to “stay away” he is sturborn he may still go to there rescue. I’ll love to see them crushed to the brink of death then they’ll all get up with there strong will (like how jiraiya did) and show Madara the one thing he can’t genetically add to himself is the “will” heh heh heh minus Gaara & Mei they are kinda kinda young.

    Have y’all seen the Interview with kishi?
    Looks like we still got a year and a half for awesomeness.

    Did you know kishi’s first goal was a series about Ramen lol y’all got to see the Interview.

  136. Damn @ten, you Kamehamah the blog out of the planet lol. Now to read it

    \(0.0)/

  137. Well Ten I admire you sticking to your guns. However, Just like we spent a whole bunch of time waiting for Sasuke to kill Kabuto and it never happened. We spent time talking about Jirayias revival as Edo Tensei and it hasn’t happened. We thought Tobi was Madara for a while. Even with all the evidence we just don’t have a strong case for any one person. The little bit of familiarity displayed doesn’t necessarily mean Obito. It’s a slightly stronger case for Obito but seriously he’s kept us guessing for this long. I would hope enough panel time fighting Naruto, Kakashi and Guy would leak more hints.

  138. @ tenrai isn’t it possible that tobi just knows about kakashi’s and gai’s personalties because they fought with akatsuki members many times and these traits showed (gai vs kisame) (kakashi vs. pain, deidara, kakuzu) he could have just been observing them recently and not known them.

  139. @Mordi

    If Tobi was able to observe Kisame’s battle with Gai – for example – then why was it necessary for Kizame to send him the intelligence he gathered in a scroll?

    I think it’s already clear that Tobi is certainly not omnipotent, hence why he needed Kisame to gather intelligence for him and send it back in a written from. So unless Kisame specifically wrote into that scroll “by the way, that green-clothed freak with the eyebrows forgot who I was,” I don’t see how Tobi would have known about it.

    The same goes for the other examples you used.

  140. @Pein

    Never underestimate the value of cheap weaponry. After all, Tobi just used a a fan to deflect Naruto’s Rasengan. @___@

    Okay, so the fan does kinda seem special and magical, but we’ll ignore that for now. <_<

  141. @Tenrai
    and in the same vein as the fan…. Naruto was able to hit Tobi in Ghost mode… so… more unexplained strangeness

  142. Indeed, it is stated that Naruto’s “chakra” affects the zetsu turning them into trees, basically changing them back to what they originally are trees. Tobi’ orignally solid I guess that is how he hit him but it could also just be a plot hole… But Tobi’s goal at the time with Kushina and Minato was specifically to destroy the leaf he even stated “I waited a long time for this” but before Obito died, he didn’t have hatred towards the leaf like Tobi did. Tobi also was a grown man as you could tell from his voice in the anime… Kakashi was 14 at the time? Obito would have been 14 as well so how could his voice be that damn deep? lol… but it was the way Tobi acted in that whole scene against Kushina and Minato that gave him that grown aspect… ALSO, i’m sure Minato would’ve had a gesture as that would be Obito he was fighting but no the name he assumed was Madara Uchiha… I’m sure having Obito as a student, there would’ve been some type of informal conversation something a little personal but Minato didn’t have a glimpse of knowing who his own student(Obito) was…

    ALSO, as you can see here http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Naruto/509%20-%20A%20Bridge%20to%20Peace/05.png
    Tobi calls Konan a “child” the way older people call younger people stating that he is older than Konan, who was older than Minato. He gave Nagato the rinnegan which means he ahd to be older than Nagato as well…

    AGAIN he refers to them as “children” http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Naruto/395%20-%20The%20Enigma%20that%20is%20Tobi%20/ch395_UK_Page_17.png … Tobi is much older than Kakashi… Kishimoto did mention he would give more on Kakashi’s past so maybe they will reveal who Tobi is before or after Kakashi’s past flashback again…

  143. http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/370%20-%20Unease%20/ch370_UK_Page_17.png another key point as to who Tobi really is… even when he doesn’t have to “act” like Madara, he was still at the valley of the end on the Madara statue…

  144. @tenrai you ask why Kurama never told anyone, he was a victim of SIS (Sharingan Induced Stupidity). As you may ask what is this SIS is? Now to explain most Sharingan user sacrificed most of there intelligence and usually infects others as well. First, Itachi with his Tsukuyomi on his brother as a result, Sasuke is now the personification of revenge. Number Two, Tobi for not kidnapping Naruto or any Jinchuuriki, the result we wouldn’t have a manga but he pretty much shot himself in the foot with that one. More examples coming soon.

  145. “I’m not talking about how the characters in Naruto would react, I’m talking about the connection these characters have to us readers.”

    So am I. I was comparing him to Orochimaru and Madara. Two villains we know and respect and who have amassed quite a fanbase. Obito can’t even stand in the shadows of these powerhouses.

    “Note: He says “Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily.” This isn’t something an elder would say about a shinobi he has knowledge of, but no direct relationship with.”

    Why not, Danzou did the same. Remember his remarks to Sasuke? You can’t get any more personal than that and Danzou rarely saw Sasuke.

    “This is something someone would only say to someone they know personally given the context of what is being said. It implies knowledge of Kakashi’s mannerisms and even suggests that Tobi has spoken to Kakashi a number of times, otherwise, how would he be able to say something like that?”

    But they have spoken several times.
    Also, don’t forget Tobi had Zetsu record various fights. It isn’t at all unlikely Tobi reviewed the fights Kakashi had with Deidara, Hidan and Kakuzu. He could have easily picked his conclusion from one of those fights.
    But I think the real question you have to ask yourself here is did Obito feel the same way? Did he mention the same thing or something similar? No he did not. In fact, Obito kind of admits he was always opening his mouth so easily and wished he was more like Kakashi.

    “Kurama would have known Obito and probably would have been able to recognize his chakra as well, considering he was the student of Minato’s and had probably been around Kushina quite a number of times as well.”

    That doesn’t explain the anger in Kurama’s expression. If it we’re Obito Kurama wouldn’t feel threatened much like he didn’t feel threatened by Sasuke until Sasuke suppressed his chakra. With Tobi however Kurama obviously knew who he was up against and what was going to come next. Also, you assume Obito has been around Kushina. How many students from Naruto’s generation have we seen visiting their sensei at home? Gai and Rock Lee probably but they’ve got something of a father and son bond. Apart from them we’ve seen Shikamaru visit Kurenai several times. Again, because of the special relationship Shikamaru shared with Asuma. Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura though have never been to Kakashi’s house for example. I see absolutely no reason as to why Obito would have visited Minato and Kushina at home a few times as Obito and Minato didn’t share a special bond other than the normal teacher student bond.

    “but how is anyone else any more likely to be recognized than Obito, unless it was actually Madara himself?”

    That’s what I’m leaning towards the most now, Madara cloning himself using Zetsu’s and Hashirama’s cells. Every other suspect has got something that doesn’t add up. Izuna is too insignificant to be of any meaning to the story. Shisui was a boy (seeing as he’s about the same age as Itachi) when Tobi attacked Konoha so he’s definitely out. Obito is too young as well and him revealing himself as Tobi would only shock Kakashi. Kagami is also too insignificant.

    “How do you explain the similarities between his jutsu and Kakashi’s Kamui? They even look identical and function in an almost identical manner, the only difference is that Tobi know’s how to absorb himself with the technique while Kakashi only knows how to absorb things around himself.”

    Seeing as how Madara, Itachi and Sasuke are all able to use a different Susano’o it’s not that far a stretch to think that Kamui and Tobi’s space time jutsu are just similar because they’re both Uchiha blood related techniques. How many Uchiha do we know with very powerful genjutsu? Madara, Tobi, Shisui and Itachi. None of them directly related but all of them have Uchiha blood running through their veins.

    “Tobi appears similar to Obito, his hair is the same, his jutsu is similar”

    What jutsu? The only jutsu we’ve seen Obito use is the great fireball. Tobi has never used that tecnhique. We have seen Tobi use a hardening technique to block Suigetsu’s sword attack. That’s most likely earth based. We’ve never seen Obito use any earth techniques.

    “he uses his right eye to perform that jutsu, the same eye of Obito’s that still remained in his body after he gave the other to Kakashi.”

    And during his fight with Konan he revealed another Sharingan in his left socket. Seeing as he stole almost all Uchiha eyes during the massacre of the Uchiha clan we can’t say whether either of his eyes are his own.

    “His body can most easily be explained by considering that Obito was crushed and then reconstructed with white Zetsu (hashirama) cells, which would both explain his constitution and his ability to use the Izanami, which requires both Senju and Uchiha powers to use. Are all of these just coincidences?”

    Why would Madara take Obito for that purpose. He could’ve just as easily taken any other Uchiha child. Was he like; “Ooooh, the look on Kakashi’s face 20 years from now is gonna be priceless!”

    “If Tobi was able to observe Kisame’s battle with Gai – for example – then why was it necessary for Kizame to send him the intelligence he gathered in a scroll?”

    Because sending Zetsu out to a room guarded by chakra sensing ninja’s wouldn’t be very productive. Nobody suspected a thing because Kisame and Samehade shared the same chakra.
    Or Tobi just wanted to make Kisame feel useful.

  146. @ Baron Wow I’m glad someone else is debating this, I think I’ve just been too mentally exhausted lately. Kudos for the push back.

    @ everyone
    Well tomorrow is my last day here. You guys keep the debate going. Somebody keep Tenrai on his toes.

    I need a dramatic exit, ya know! (Dattebayo!). Something tearful and heart moving with all kind of nostalgia and melancholy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqP8Ei1zPlA I offer this instead… a beautiful fan made amv not perfect but one of my favorites

  147. @Baron

    “So am I. I was comparing him to Orochimaru and Madara. Two villains we know and respect and who have amassed quite a fanbase. Obito can’t even stand in the shadows of these powerhouses.”

    Then you missed my point completely. I was comparing our connection with Tobi, to our connection to Kagami and Izuna. Not to any other villains or heroes, or any other characters whatsoever. I was asking, between Kagami, Izuna and Obito, who do we have the deepest connection to? I wasn’t asking between Obito, Madara and Orochimaru.

    You’ve completely obscured my point and tried to worm out of it by including characters that I was never referring to in the first place. But, your point is also self destructive as well, because neither Kagami nor Izuna could hold candles to Orochimaru or Madara either. Obito has a bigger fanbase than either of those two, which is only sensible because… we don’t know anything about them whatsoever. <_<

    "But they have spoken several times.
    Also, don’t forget Tobi had Zetsu record various fights. It isn’t at all unlikely Tobi reviewed the fights Kakashi had with Deidara, Hidan and Kakuzu. He could have easily picked his conclusion from one of those fights."

    If Tobi recorded the fight between Gai and Kizame, there would have been no need for Kizame to send him intelligence on a scroll in a written form, so that's one nail in the coffin already. As for Kakashi, we've only seen him speak to Tobi on two occasions. One was before the Kage summit when Tobi tried to approach Naruto, the other was when they encountered Sasuke and Tobi came to the rescue. In neither cases did Kakashi act in an "outspoken" manner or in a way that could have been regarded as rash.

    Tobi was clearly speaking as if he knew a lot more about Kakashi than one could possibly learn from just two meetings.

    "But I think the real question you have to ask yourself here is did Obito feel the same way? Did he mention the same thing or something similar? No he did not. In fact, Obito kind of admits he was always opening his mouth so easily and wished he was more like Kakashi."

    You're assuming that in many years that have passed, Obito's outlook on life would have remained identical to what it was when he was 13. If we consider that Obito might have become the primary villain of this series and that his outlook had changed drastically since being scarred by war (like how Nagato was) then it is VERY easy to see why his outlook on Kakashi would have changed as well, just like how Nagato, who ones praised Jiraiya and followed his path to peace, later accused him of being a child who lacked understanding and then proceeded to kill him.

    "That doesn’t explain the anger in Kurama’s expression. If it we’re Obito Kurama wouldn’t feel threatened much like he didn’t feel threatened by Sasuke until Sasuke suppressed his chakra. With Tobi however Kurama obviously knew who he was up against and what was going to come next."

    Alright, I'll remind you about one thing. Kurama has been sealed since the time of the first Hokage, which also means he was sealed inside Mito long before Kagami or Obito were born. You originally seemed to believe that Tobi was Kagami at one point, yet if that was the case, then how would Kurama have recognized him if he was sealed before Kagami was born? In addition, why would he feel threatened by Kagami? You seem to disprove your own theories with your comments, while trying to disprove mine.

    "Also, you assume Obito has been around Kushina. How many students from Naruto’s generation have we seen visiting their sensei at home? Gai and Rock Lee probably but they’ve got something of a father and son bond. Apart from them we’ve seen Shikamaru visit Kurenai several times. Again, because of the special relationship Shikamaru shared with Asuma."

    So, first you give me examples of how some students have likely visited their sensei's houses, but then go on about how Obito wouldn't have done the same, as if the mere possibility of suggesting such a thing was absurd. Seems legit. <_<

    "That’s what I’m leaning towards the most now, Madara cloning himself using Zetsu’s and Hashirama’s cells."

    So now you're changing your own theories as to who Tobi is as well?

    "Seeing as how Madara, Itachi and Sasuke are all able to use a different Susano’o it’s not that far a stretch to think that Kamui and Tobi’s space time jutsu are just similar because they’re both Uchiha blood related techniques. "

    Yet we've seen no other Uchiha use that space time jutsu, nor has it ever been suggested that any other Uchiha can use it. If Tobi was a clone of Madara's as you suggested, then shouldn't his jutsu and abilities also be similar to Madara's? If that was the case, couldn't he have used Susanoo to save himself from Konan rather than resorting to the Izanagi?

    Tobi's jutsu is most similarly related to Kakashi's. It looks the same and even behaves the same way. Susanoo may be a shared technique between Uchiha, but no Susanoo looks the same as the others, each has a distinct look and each wields distinct powers. Kamui, however, is not distinct from Tobi's jutsu in any way. Both look the same, both are space-time jutsu and both allow the user to absorb other objects in the world into another dimension. Yes, it's not a sure-fire fact that explicitly proves that Obito is Tobi, but their jutsu are more closely matched than we can say for any other characters we know so far.

    "What jutsu? The only jutsu we’ve seen Obito use is the great fireball."

    I was referring to how Tobi's space time jutsu was similar to Kamui, a power born from Obito's eyes.

    "And during his fight with Konan he revealed another Sharingan in his left socket. Seeing as he stole almost all Uchiha eyes during the massacre of the Uchiha clan we can’t say whether either of his eyes are his own."

    Yes, that's true. That's why I'm not basing my theory solely on the jutsu he uses. Rather, I'm basing it on a combination of clues, both visual and literal.

    "Why would Madara take Obito for that purpose. He could’ve just as easily taken any other Uchiha child. Was he like; “Ooooh, the look on Kakashi’s face 20 years from now is gonna be priceless!""

    Hm… let's see. Madara could either kidnap a child from Konoha and draw suspicion because people noticed that the child is missing, or he could take someone that everyone else already thinks is dead. I wonder which would make more sense.

    "Because sending Zetsu out to a room guarded by chakra sensing ninja’s wouldn’t be very productive. Nobody suspected a thing because Kisame and Samehade shared the same chakra.
    Or Tobi just wanted to make Kisame feel useful."

    Er, you didn't answer my question. I asked why Kisame would need to send Tobi info written in a scroll if Tobi was able to observe his battle with Kisame from afar. I didn't ask why Tobi sent Kisame to spy rather than sending Zetsu or anything like that.

    In either case, your response is flawed, because Zetsu can mimick anyone's chakra or appearance to the point where not even an astute sensory ninja would be able to detect it, as proven obscenely in this war. So yes, Tobi could have quite easily sent a white Zetsu in Kisame's place, even though that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make or the question I was asking.

    Anyway, you and I have always been at odds on this theory. Really, we're just covering ground we already covered many times before and will likely do many times again until Tobi's identity is actually revealed. Lol. Perhaps we should just wait and see, because Kishi may end up proving us both wrong.

  148. I mean sure lets all just jump over what I had to say -__-… my evidence is clear proof that it cannot be Obito >:/ filthy jack rabbits!

  149. @tens plotkai , maybe Kuruma though it was Madara, because maybe Tobi has gained Madaras chakra somehow…
    @ashes, ill miss ya, that AMV was quite a blow! Thx! (maybe you could give us a top 5 amvs XD) I hope its nothing serious, or, if it is, I wish you good luck!
    @grey, XD welcome to WRA! XDDDD (jk)

  150. Yo Tobi is strong as shit… i must say he is stronger than Madara at this point from what we have seen. He took on Gai, Kakashi, and Naruto at the same time and I think those 3 together are equal to or better than the 5 kage since naruto could do things the kage couldn’t do themselves and kakashi was already kage level and Gai is too since the two are rivals and he defeated kisame easily (lol).

    why I say tobi is stronger than Madara? If it wasn’t for Edo tensei, Madara would’ve been dead by now after all that shit the kage did to him. tobi against Madara i’m sure he could defeat him.

  151. This is ridiculous, the updates here are regularly irregular. it is once every 2 or 3 mangas

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