Naruto 553 Manga Breakdown: Naruto OHKO’s a Tsuchikage in 4 pages that two other Kages and an army couldn’t take down over ten chapters. Oh, and Sasuke has pretty eyes. WARNING: Where Dark goes, epic rants will follow.

I'd hate to get flipped off by this dude in traffic. Credits to Lord Nadjib of DeviantArt.

Darks here, with an early breakdown for you guys this week. Yeah, I know, pretty awesome huh? What’s NOT awesome is this week’s chapter!

Oh, come on! You can’t tell me that I was the ONLY person in here who was completely underwhelmed by this chapter, surely!

Pffft. Sasuke fangirls, the lot of you.

*gets shoe hurled in face*

*followed by spear*

*and is then set on fire*

*before getting flipped off by Naruto*

Ow… *sniffs* but I’m right. And let me show you why.

BREAKDOWN

MUU used AGILITY! MUU's Speed sharply rose!

And here we arrive at the first facepalm of the chapter. Naruto attempts to get the drop on Muu the Zombiekage but somehow – unbelievably – he misses. How the heck does the Tsuchikage dodge? Naruto’s supposed to be as fast/faster than his daddy, Yondaime Hokage. I don’t care whether Muu’s a sensory type or not. Naruto is Kishi’s version of Kid Flash with a fetish for handling balls. He should have been all over the Tsuchikage. How? Someone tell me how the %@$& he dodged.

…you know, right before he got hit by a rasengan to the face. That he could see coming. As opposed to the one he dodged that he couldn’t see coming. Because that makes total sense! Am I right, WRA?

I will admit that this impact shot was pure friggin epictricity, though.

What initially promised to be an epic fight scene was ended quickly by Grandpa Tsuchikage, turning his master into a deadweight invalid and allowing him to be sealed by Gaara. However, The Tsuchikage has enough breath in him to issue one final warning before being sealed away completely.

“You should take precaution… I…” – mangastream

For some reason, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him. Hope not, at least.

Sorry. I've been dying to do it since 547. 😄

After an explanation from Naruto and a mental shoulder-tap from Shikadaddy, Gaara, Grandpa and Golden Boy go off to kick the remaining Zombiekage’s asses. Though they certainly have their work cut out for them…

O_O

This, however, brings us to our second facepalm of the chapter, and that is Temari’s complete and utter lack of strategic comprehension. She seems genuinely surprised that all their attacks aren’t injuring Sandaime Raikage. Kishi attempts to explain this away by emphasizing the Raikage’s extreme tankiness, however anyone with a basic understanding of the Edo Tensei would have noted that PHYSICAL ATTACKS ARE USELESS. At the end of the day, his endurance doesn’t mean squat in this fight because no matter what injuries he suffers, he can regenerate.

And yet, in a brain fart worthy of Tenten herself, THIS is what she comes up with:

I just shed a tear for the fate of humanity.

Clever. Real clever.

Though we did get a glimpse into Sandaime Raikage’s backstory and from all reports, he was quite a badass, single-handedly holding off an army of 10,000 shinobi for 3 days and nights… by himself. Bloody hell, they breed ’em big in the Hidden Cloud, don’t they?

Also, upon learning about his susceptibility to wind-element jutsu, Naruto jumps in and saves the day. A recurring theme in the manga these last few weeks. I’m not even going to start on his “IMA SAVE YEW!!” entrance not ten minutes after Itachi told him to shut his face and work as a team. Some things can’t be helped, I guess.

BUT ON TO THE EPIC PART OF THIS CHAPTER, the redeeming pages of pure excellence that made the chapter worthwhile. And this was it:

MS Paint force-closed trying to re-caption this image. True story.

Epic. The first time we’ve really seen an EMS in action, and it’s friggin awesome. Notice though, no blood. Seems Sasuke can use his new eyes without suffering ANY of the repercussions of standard MS use, not just avoiding blindness but also physical trauma. Scary thought. And his Susano’o wields a sword of black fire, reflecting Sasuke’s mastery of the Blaze Release. I truly can’t wait to see this guy on the battle field duking it out with Naruto.

AWESOMENESS EXTRAS

Winner of last breakdown’s bubble contest was…

Pisbolman, for this entry!

Sorry bro, it was a bit too big to fit in the bubbles provided, but DAMN you had me in stitches! 😄

For all the kiddies, I’m sorry if I soiled your eyes, but it was gunna happen sooner or later, right? 😉

ALSO… DEBATE TIME.

See, I don’t believe in taking week long breaks between debates. You can all rest when your dead! Right now, there’s a war going on and I’m about to introduce you to the combatants. And this one’s gonna be sweet.

A WRA first! Team Match! Itachi and Kisame VS Konan and The Six Paths of Pein!

I dunno about you guys, but I was not willing to let that last debate go. Methinks Red felt the same way lol, and I hated how the entire debate stalled on just one critical factor – Tsukuyomi – and a draw being decided from there. So to prevent this from happening this time, I’ve brought in their combat partners and friends to avoid this debate hanging on any one single factor. For this match up, Itachi is young and healthy, but Nagato is back to his Six Paths form. To be honest, even after the last few chapters, I still think Nagato was more dangerous as The Six Paths. No insta-kills please (this means no-first-turn-Susano’o or Chibaku Tensei). This debate will be won by debating skill and that alone.

A fight between the strongest teams Akatsuki had to offer. This will be one to remember. 🙂

Behold the power of Mod.

~ Darks

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~ by DarkAvatar on September 2, 2011.

206 Responses to “Naruto 553 Manga Breakdown: Naruto OHKO’s a Tsuchikage in 4 pages that two other Kages and an army couldn’t take down over ten chapters. Oh, and Sasuke has pretty eyes. WARNING: Where Dark goes, epic rants will follow.”

  1. FIRSTTTTT

  2. SECOND WOOT!

  3. Lol. This sounds more like a rant than a breakdown, but it was still funny.

    In any case, I dissagree with you on some points Darks. Firstly, Naruto dropping out of the sky and missing Muu. You need to remember that Naruto can’t fly, so he is essentially falling. Now, I’m not sure about you, but last I checked, people can’t control their falling speed, so it stands to reason he wouldn’t be as fast as if, say, he was on the ground dashing.

    Secondly, the part about Naruto jumping into the battle somehow being assosiated with him being a lone wolf again. Itachi told him not to forget his friends and to not try do everything alone. Well, Naruto worked with the Tsuchikage and Gaara to defeat Muu and even asked for Gaara’s help. Basically, he worked as a team with them and not alone. When he jumped in to help Temari, he made a statement about himself being a wind user as well, that’s all. He didn’t say “step aside Temari, I’m handling this alone” so I am not sure how he has gone against what Itachi has said yet. No need to hurt yourself on a wasted facepalm. Lol.

    Baseless accusations are baseless. <____<

    And who actually went off to do things on his own? Oh yes, Itachi. Funny that. 😛

  4. I found this breakdown enjoyable.

  5. @ten – Where does it say he was falling? He may have been on the downward arc of his jump, but that doesn’t mean he was just falling. It’s quite likely that he was still being carried forward by the momentum of his jump, and that is something that CAN be controlled. Also, he has extendable arms that ALSO travel fast. Why not use them to begin with?

    Also, Naruto leapt into the battlefield screaming “I CAN DO IT!!” without informing any of the forces currently fighting the Raikage. That’s not teamwork by any stretch of the word I’ve heard. Though I didn’t facepalm for it. Temari’s blonde moment is what earned a facepalming from me.

  6. @Darks.

    The downward arc of a jump = falling. Lol. Now Darks, we all know that maximum falling speed is the same for all objects, human or otherwise. So no, Naruto can’t control it and it has a limit as well. Also, you are overlooking the fact that Naruto was unnaware of Muu’s sensor abilities. He didn’t anticipate Muu moving out of the way so he didn’t use his chakra arms, that’s all.

    He learned from his mistake though and on the followup attack, he compensated accordingly. I really don’t see the problem there.

    Now for your second point, I really don’t get it. Do you expect Naruto to land and have a nice discussion with the shinobi forces asking for their permission to join a life or death battle against an opponent who might attack and kill more people at any moment? You can’t waste time in a war.

    *Naruto lands and clears throat*

    “Ahem. Hello everyone, I am Naruto. Is it alright if I join you and help you take down the big scary guy over there?”

    Everyone else: O_o

    Lol. I mean, it’s not like Itachi announced his involvement when he rescued Naruto and Bee.

    *Itachi lands near Nagato.*

    “Hello Naruto and Bee, I am here to tell you that I am about to save you from Nagato, because apparently if I don’t tell you first, then I am not working as a part of a team and will consequently be severely admonished.”

    Sorry, but on the battlefield, sometimes you have to act first and talk later. In either case, wouldn’t it be better to wait until the next chapter to see what actually happens?

    I do agree with you on Temari’s blond moment part though. @___@

  7. @darks: Temari was using DBZ-style logic. If something regenerates, all you have to do is cut it so many times that it can’t regenerate. Too bad Edo Tensei summons aren’t like Buu or it might have actually worked.

    By the way, did you draw that Team Itachi vs Team Pein image? Because it looks awesome!

  8. Wow, ego much?

  9. Sixth
    *Uses a Flamthrower on those Assuke fangirls* BURN, BURN IN HELL YOU WICKED WITCHES!!!
    OH NOE!!!! Kishi has now stupiditize (made it up) Temari.
    Sasuke can see again and this time he doesn’t have to
    twist his head and impossible angle to see it.
    @tenrai more like
    *Naruto lands and clears throat*

    “Ahem. Hello everyone, I am Naruto. Is it alright if I join you and help you take down the big scary guy over there?”

    Third Raikage uses Pimpslap It’s super effective.

    Temari the only survivor: O_o

  10. Ten –

    “Now Darks, we all know that maximum falling speed is the same for all objects, human or otherwise.”

    Wait, what? No that’s not right. There’s no such thing as a maximum falling speed. You will continue to accelerate until you hit the ground.

    As for Naruto, moot point. I did say it wasn’t worth going into too much detail in the breakdown lol.

  11. @Darks

    There is such a thing as maximum falling speed. It is called “Terminal Velocity”. You should have learned about it in science, if you ever took that subject.

    In any case, I actually made a slight mistake. The falling speed is the same for all objects regardless of mass if there is no resistance. If you add resistance, then the speed changes according to how much resistance is affecting the falling object. In Naruto’s case, there is resistance, therefore, there is also a point where he would reach Terminal Velocity as well.

    Even then, his falling speed wouldn’t be able to match the speed he can attain while moving, which is so fast the eye can’t follow it properly. This is very different from a falling object which the human eye can follow all too easily.

    Unless Naruto has a rocket stuck up his bum, or is able to fly like the Tsuchkage, thereby allowing him to increase his speed or change direction, then he is, essentially, just falling, which means his speed is, in fact, limited.

  12. Oh yeah, and…

    @dragon – I wish I drew that pic lol. Unfortunately I didn’t. But it was absolutely perfect for the debate in question that i used it. The most I can take credit for is the black section and the red VS. And that’s about it. 😄

  13. Poo on you, tenrai, going all physicky on me, taking advantage of me and my blind faith in supersonic Naruto.

  14. INCOMING!!!

    Tsukuyomi by Itachi and BOOM, Team Itachi wins again!!… *Darks whispers into ear* What? *more whispers* There’s more than one opponent? Fine, two Tsukuyomi’s and win for Itachi… No?…
    Sigh….

    Seriously though, because of Itachi’s intellect and Kisame’s only weakness being his inability to defend against non-chakra attacks I say this goes to Itachi and Kisame. Konan isn’t adequate to handle either Itachi or Kisame. She held her own pretty well against Madara but that was mainly because she expected Madara to pay her a visit and she took A LOT of time to prepare for him. The 6 paths of Pain are the real problem for Kisame and Itachi. But as I said, Itachi has the intellect to quickly figure out the do’s and dont’s of fighting the 6 paths. Their only concern is surviving the first few attacks Pain launches at them.

  15. Sasuke’s EMS was pretty cool looking but I still can’t praise the chapter just because of that. His appearance has been long awaited and now that he’s back people are getting excited (save the Sasuke haters) but all he did was make an appearance. It’s not like this appearance is a prelude to an epic showdown.

    Look at how Naruto is pumping through his chakra. Will they really have their final battle here in this war? I doubt it. Naruto won’t be at full capacity by the time the two meet on the battlefield.

    What I’m really excited to see from Sasuke in the future is turning the tide of battle. As so many people before me have said this war is faaar too one-sided. Even with both sides losing exactly half of their forces on the 1st day of the war it doesn’t “feel” like the badguys have any momentum whatsoever. Even when Madara appeared with his giant statue.

    As for this chapter I did like it. Yeah, I’m annoyed Naruto is butting into everyone’s battles still. I understand he’s the main character but he just jumped into 2 different battles in 1 chapter! I would love to see…idk…Rock Lee do SOMETHING! Kiba and Shino….remember those guys? And that one blue haired girl…or guy…with the souless looking eyes. I think they’re 2 separate people….anyway, I want to see them fight too!

    But we’re subjected to see Naruto run around the battlefield finishing off enemies and glowing.

    Oh well, at least we have Kakashi’s rampage. Remember when Kakashi broke that Zetsu’s neck and used his lifeless body as nunchucks!? Awesome.

  16. @DarkAvatar: Awesome Breakdown. Made me laugh. I just wanted to point out, although I have no idea where Naruto even jumped from, objects do have a maximum falling speed and once they’ve achieved it they will continue to fall at that speed until they hit the ground.
    I’m almost certain it’s called the terminal velocity but I don’t think that Naruto would have reached it since he would have had to been falling from quite a distance.

  17. nevermind lol -___-

  18. @red – you forget that it’s not just Nagato and Konan, it’s the Six Paths and Konan, so Itachi would need to subject all 6 bodies to Tsukuyomi plus Konan for that to work.

    @dreamer – so I’ve been told. Damn you sciencey types lol. And also, welcome to the blog bro!

  19. @Super – who is this Kakashi character you keep talking about??

  20. @Baron

    Lol. I somehow knew this would happen. Alas, it seems our break from debating was short lived.

    Anyway, you forget that as long as it takes for Itachi to activate Tsukyomi, Pein could have already hit him with a Shinra Tensei and Konan could have already taken to the skies, far out of Itachi’s eye contact reach.

    You’re also forgetting that this isn’t just a two against two battle, it’s a seven against two battle. If we assume that Itachi’s Tsukyomi can work on Pein, it still doesn’t change the fact that he can’t share eye contact with all of them at once, which means he would have to use it on one body at a time. This in itself would exhaust him to the point of no longer being able to battle long before he finishes anyone off. Seeing as how each body of Pein is also essentially dead, they won’t feel pain (haha), so Tsukyomi is actually useless in this instance.

    2 weeks of torture is pointless against a foe who doesn’t register it.

    We also know that Nagato, who is controlling the bodies, isn’t affected by genjutsu because Jiraiya’s genjutsu only affected three of Pein’s bodies while the other three could still move fine and reinforce them. They all shared the same senses and minds, and yet, not all of them were affected.

    Itachi would only be wasting his time with Tsukyomi in this battle. So the instant genjutsu win is a fail this time around, I’m afraid.

    Also, if genjutsu is somehow effective, visually, Pein doesn’t need to look Itachi in the eyes to battle him. Shared vision means he could effectively keep his eyes off Itachi while his other bodies observe Itachi from other directions – from behind, for example. If Itachi starts turning to face them, they can literally close their eyes while still keeping perfect track of what Itachi’s doing and where he is relative to their position.

    I do agree that Konan isn’t a good match for Kisame’s water, but Pein can handle Kisame easily. Konan can also use long range attacks to effectively battle Itachi with paper bombs. Itachi can defend with Susanoo, but that would just weaken him if he uses it for too long. All Konan would have to do is keep up her attacks until Itachi runs out of chakra from overuse of the MS. If Itachi tried to counter attack with ranged Jutsu, like Amatarasu, Konan could just split into a thousand pieces of paper and he wouldn’t know where to aim. Once again, wasting MS techniques would make the battle over for him faster, so he can’t afford to spam it on a target he has little chance of hitting.

    There’s also the part where Konan can use her paper butterflies as spies to keep track of Itachi’s movements at a distance, so she can stay at a longer range away from him. That way, she wouldn’t have to rely on eyesight to battle him at all, thus, eliminating the risk of genjutsu altogether. @__@

  21. @Tenrai

    If Itachi can get close enough that can’t he use Kanton type jutsus that will eliminate the use of jutsus that drain excessive amounts of chakra.

  22. Sorry, I had to post quick, but I meant that if Itachi can get close enough to Konan, then she will stand no chance against a direct hit from a Grand Fireball.

    If Itachi happens to miss, then there will be little strain from the jutsu since it doesn’y use as much chakra as Amaterasu.

  23. @Tenrai: Konan’s paper isn’t weak to water. She was fighting Madara under Amegakure’s rain. http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-1/naruto/chapter-509.html
    Also, in the anime she submerged her paper body in water to protect it from fire attacks. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Dance_of_the_Shikigami

    So Kisame’s Suiton techniques wouldn’t greatly affect her and she’d be able to fight him without Pein’s help.

  24. I intend to join in on this debate. @___@

  25. Hmm… vision flash time. What if Sasuke teams up with Naruto just long enough to defeat Madara then end the war, then rises to become the new main antagonist, controlling Zetzu(s) and Gedo Mazo. He goes into hiding to recover, but vows to return again, to destroy Konoha.

    Time skip??

  26. tenrai- i dont agree with what you said about konan bombarding itachi with paper bombs until his susanoo runs out of chakra. you’re assuming she has enough chakra herself to do that, let alone enough paper bombs. her fight with madara was an exception because she prepared for it for kishi only knows how long..just sayin.

    aroptu- definite possibility, one ive considered myself. because i think sasuke v naruto will be the final battle of the whole series and honestly idk how naruto’s gonna beat madara right now

  27. Nice breakdown Dark! ohhh and Is that me who won the bubblition contest? :O I just posted it last night.. 😀 anyway thanks..

    Hmmn.. Konan have a chance against Kisame even if Kisame is a Suiton user. Konan could just scatter all of the paper-with-explosives-no-jutsu near Kisame. I think it all comes down to who has the most chakra reserve wins. If Konan can land that billions of explosives paper it’s done. And whatever that jutsu with the rainbow is i think it’s a strong jutsu too but we never had a chance to see it. I wonder if Kabuto got a hold of her body and edo tensei her and then we may have a chance to see what is that jutsu, 😀

    Nagato sprawling all of his summons + the attack of that one pain with long range at the same time would buy Nagato a time to prepare for Chibaku tensei. and also he can repel attack and that one pain can absorb ninjutsu. Itachi only had a chance with his Susano’o + Sword of Totsuka. But going all out Nagato also summoning Gedo Mazo.. I think Nagato + Konan had the advantage but not much.. I wonder if Sword of Totsuka can be repel by Nagato’s Shinra Tensei.

  28. Ok since everyone is being mean to Konan I just want to point out something. Even if she took a single second to prepare a paper bomb, making a billion would take her 31 years! -_- So she can easily make 31 in a second. More to the point, its not like she even had a year to prepare is it? More like a week or a month or something. If we are talking a week then the woman can make 372 bombs a second. If we are talking a week then its 1612 a second. Oh this is all considering she didn’t sleep at all in the preparation time, or eat or crap or anything like that. just made bombs. obviously she did other stuff so these numbers are even higher. Anyway, that means Kisame or Itachi give her one second in the battle and they have to deal with this many tags flying around…That she can control -_-
    Are they really good enough for such a thing?
    Oh and none of this ‘but she wouldn’t be prepared’ stuff. That’s no more likely than pein only having one of his bodies out of the cryofreezer or Itachi firing up the mangekyo as soon as he sees them since she can make as much paper as she wants. She isn’t as lame as everyone thinks…

  29. Sorry the first ‘week’ should be a month

  30. @ floatingdreamer and general debate – You forget that Konan also has a summon sort of contract with Animal Path this would mean she can easily gain distance from Itachi while Kisame and 3 of the 6 Paths attack, the one that shoots missiles could be effective against Kisame even keeping range plus 2 more for support maybe Deva, then we have Animal Path Summoning powerful summons to bombard and attack Itachi while Konan also uses range attacks to keep him at bay all the while perfectly hidden from site with in his cameleon, so Konan will be too far for Itachi to Genjutsu and Pein will be hidden plus the other two and all his summons sharing the vision giving him few blind spots, if Itachi Closes in on Konan Animal Path will just Re-Summon her in a different location making her almost as fast as Minato….

    General Debate Topics – Kisame and Itachi are powerful but their team work is unheard of, I mean most battles either they spilt up or they never fight together, Konan and Pain have years of Experience, I mean even Kisame’s attacks would weaken Itachi more, it would make it difficult for him to use fire based jutsu… Kisame and Itachi are also to large for life, the black flames, Itachi can’t control them thus making him a liability, and the giant water ball would mean that Itachi would drown, so their strong jutsu’s actually work against each other, Itachi will then basically only have Susanoo and Kisame Salamander but if Pain keeps his Distance he should be find and as long as Animal and the reviving path are alive he will be an army that cannot die

  31. Doesn’t anyone else agree that EMS Sasuke needs to have a new theme music? I mean the cowboy kind of thing was all good as long as he was travelling around with taka, but now he needs some epic chorus shit.
    Lol, you know you’re badass when a chorus is following you around and won’t stop singing <_<
    Anyways, ain't I right?

    *Silence*

    *chirping somewhere far away, slowly dying out*

    *More Silence*

    You know what, screw you guys I'm gonna join a blog for Sasuke-fanboys, that's what I'll do! 😉

    Oh, and I'm no Sasuke fanboy. I think.

  32. @ DMAX – Pains God Theme Was Awesome 😀

  33. @pain: Heh, I agree, but just imagine a bunch of guys following him around and singing everytime he does something. *grin*

  34. “making konan as fast as minato”….uhhh no i dont think it works like that. i suppose if animal pasth summoned her somewhere n then started summoning her again before she literally appeared you could say that, but problem is we all know that’s not how it works. too much assuming goin on right now when the fact is our arguments have to come with some evidence in the manga to back em up.
    and honestly do you really think itachi and kisame would have been paired up if their jutsu worked against each other THAT much? pretty dumb for idea from the “god of the world” if that were true

  35. @Darks
    “so Itachi would need to subject all 6 bodies to Tsukuyomi plus Konan for that to work.”

    Why can’t he just tsukyomni the real body ? 😛

  36. @Franky

    “Ok since everyone is being mean to Konan I just want to point out something. Even if she took a single second to prepare a paper bomb, making a billion would take her 31 years! -_- So she can easily make 31 in a second. More to the point, its not like she even had a year to prepare is it? More like a week or a month or something. If we are talking a week then the woman can make 372 bombs a second. If we are talking a week then its 1612 a second. Oh this is all considering she didn’t sleep at all in the preparation time, or eat or crap or anything like that. just made bombs. obviously she did other stuff so these numbers are even higher. Anyway, that means Kisame or Itachi give her one second in the battle and they have to deal with this many tags flying around…That she can control -_-
    Are they really good enough for such a thing?
    Oh and none of this ‘but she wouldn’t be prepared’ stuff. That’s no more likely than pein only having one of his bodies out of the cryofreezer or Itachi firing up the mangekyo as soon as he sees them since she can make as much paper as she wants. She isn’t as lame as everyone thinks…”

    Ever heard the word “susano’o” ? I mean you imply that itachi and kisame are going to let her do what she wants? Konan is fodder for a guy like itachi 😛

  37. @Ten

    “Also, if genjutsu is somehow effective, visually, Pein doesn’t need to look Itachi in the eyes to battle him. Shared vision means he could effectively keep his eyes off Itachi while his other bodies observe Itachi from other directions – from behind, for example. If Itachi starts turning to face them, they can literally close their eyes while still keeping perfect track of what Itachi’s doing and where he is relative to their position.”

    But my question is , Is Itachi an idiot? Read this again or many other countless pages which say the same thing in different words

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/48046013/4
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/5
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/8

  38. @ Dish – Well lets put it this way, you travel 100km in a second it makes you VERY fast!! I said ALMOST as you may see in my post, so what I am saying if Konan Fights at Distance and keeps away from animal Path she can be returned to any location within a split second, that is FAST. That not a guess that is a fact, the point I was making is in a distance battle Konan can keep her own with the help of Itachi…

    “and honestly do you really think itachi and kisame would have been paired up if their jutsu worked against each other THAT much? pretty dumb for idea from the “god of the world” if that were true”

    HMMMMMM Tune me about Speculation and yet here it is <_< you speculate that they wouldn't pair people that work countering each other, mmmm lets see, Sasori Deidara are both Powerful but what combined Jutsu could they use? Sasori Orochimaru? that was not how Itachi works. I gave evidence, Fire is Itachi Primary and Water is Kisame, if that is not a conflict I am not sure what is <_< Oh and by your logic why would the leader of the Akatsuki be weaker then the Figthers in his Organization 😛

    @ Ahsan – Kisame and Itachi got 6 Paths of Pain to Deal with too. Pain can keep her in the Cameleon to prep and all he will have to do is hold his own, basically leave the reviving and cameleon at Konan's location and continue fighting continuously bombarding Itachi and Kisame, and if Itachi can destroy one of the bodies the body will just be revived so it will become a war of attrition…

  39. no no no..my point to what you said is that’s not the way pein uses the summoning jutsu. he doesn’t use it in battle as a way to move around like minato did so saying he would move konan around the battlefield in that manner is what i was arguing.

    so you’re saying just because they couldn’t use combined jutsu they would not be more powerful together? the only group we saw literally fight together against the same opponents was kakuzu and hidan..that doesn’t mean the others couldn’t fight as a team but they were never in a situation where they needed to either

  40. @Dish: That’s still a lot of speculating. I don’t mean to sound rude but if all we ever saw Kisame do was crazy large water jutsu then surely that is hindering Itachi just as Pein has said. Just saying they have moves that work together is all well and good but if we didn’t see it it doesn’t count.

    @Ahsan: No no no, I was actually making a point that they wouldn’t allow her to do what she wants. And that when she gets one second (ONE SECOND!!) she can make countless paper bombs. Pein (the blogger not the character =P) also pointed out she can go in the chameleon and have loads of time to make paper bombs, which can just supplement Pein (the character =P) while he does his thing.

    Another thing to note is Konan’s butterflies could block Itachi’s line of sight quite well and quelling the Tsukiyomi threat even further than Pein’s shared eyesight already does. Is he really going to waste his energy Amaterasuing them individually? Will Kisame back off with the water enough for an all enveloping Katon? And Konan can just make Paper clones anyway. Which Tsukiyomi doesn’t work on. Honestly, I don’t think its a fair match up at all. Itachi and Kisame could be beaten by any number of tactics…

  41. @ Ahsan – Your points are invalid let me tell you why!

    First link – In this debate Nagato has 6 Pairs of Eyes already bodies are more mobile then his original so his lack of mobility is a moot point also in the battle Nagato was fighting Naruto and Bee, both being some of the Fastest Ninja of all time… So yeah pointless link is pointless… If you wanna point out Itachi skill in finding a weak point, well yes his attack landed on 2 Objects in Battle there would be 6 Paths of Pain and well all the summons too…

    2nd Link – This entire part hinges on one specific point, A Lot of you are like

    “Wow Itachi so smart he even undid Edo Tensei for himself” *Sees the Sparkles Floating*
    *Dusts the sparkles that came from Itachi fan boys*

    but this whole thing happening was actually cause Itachi’s amazing plan FAILED, and PURE FLUKE NO PLOT NO JUTSU! Honestly I think he had a better chance of pulling a Hawk out his @$$. Even with the speed of Amutswra 😉 (black flames) Nagato still had the time to say, hey I see what you did there, in Battle that would be a Almighty Push knocking the crap out of Itachi…. So even with the element of Surprise this super awesome fast technique was actually slow! I mean we saw what happened with the Raikage, and Sasuke has shown better skill at Black Flames then even Itachi…

    @ Dish – I understand what you mean and although he may not use it in a battle in the sense of attack like Minato does, if you look at strategic retreat he can effectively mean that Konan can move from one position to another quickly meaning if Itachi is attacking her and Pein helps by summoning her in Itachi Blind spot, which means she will be better placed for counter this is true for just about any of Pains bodies 😛

  42. Ok, just some thoughts i wanted to share on the debate

    1 I think everyone is focusing to much on the finishing moves of the characters, which is pretty similar to going “fist turn win”

    2 As they are all akat, I’m thinking they all know about each others powers

    3 As I see it, the battle can take 2 ways, first we have 2 1v1 matches or we have a 2v2 match, so it needs to be clear which way they are fighting in orther to take into account teamwork and stuff

    4 In a battle inside the narutoverse it’s highly unlikely for one character moveset to completely win against another, we have seen countless of times were new startegies or jutsus come out in the middle of a battle to help the characters overcome a situation

    5 Jutsus like amateratsu or massive paper bombs are not likely to be used right away in a battle, even less so have the whole battle centered around how to plan for those moves to work, like the konan cameleon paper bomb combo, as the attacks alone are pretty much an all in win or loose thing

    Now, my own take on the debate centers around a few points

    If team itachi is able to take down the reviving path or whatever the hell is called i think they might be the winners of the battle

    If, however they dont, i think pein team wins as the battle would just draw out and outstall team itachi

    aside from this i think the battle is pretty much even, can team itachi win? yes they have 2 powerful ninjas with powerful moves and awesome skill

    but the same for team pein, both of them are very strong, have uber jutsu and highly skilled

    seriously i think plot no jutsu will be the thing to win this battle and that can go to pretty much either team

    I personally go for team itachi just cuz even if i said not to do this earlier i find itachi and kisame hax jutsus to powerful, the giant water ball would get all of pain paths in trouble, itachi following konan with amateratsu, or just tsukuhax would be good enough, susano and the totsuka sowrd and yata mirror, samehada, fish thing transfpormation and both aresenal of great justsu. but even if a side with them i think they win just by a tiny bit

  43. Hmmn.. Konan have a chance against Kisame even if Kisame is a Suiton user. Konan could just scatter all of the paper-with-explosives-no-jutsu near Kisame. I think it all comes down to who has the most chakra reserve wins. If Konan can land that billions of explosives paper it’s done. And whatever that jutsu with the rainbow is i think it’s a strong jutsu too but we never had a chance to see it. I wonder if Kabuto got a hold of her body and edo tensei her and then we may have a chance to see what is that jutsu, 😀

    Nagato sprawling all of his summons + the attack of that one pain with long range at the same time would buy Nagato a time to prepare for Chibaku tensei. and also he can repel attack and that one pain can absorb ninjutsu. Itachi only had a chance with his Susano’o + Sword of Totsuka. But going all out Nagato also summoning Gedo Mazo.. I think Nagato + Konan had the advantage but not much.. I wonder if Sword of Totsuka can be repel by Nagato’s Shinra Tensei.

  44. haha 🙂 but that’s not how his summoning works bud. minato could do that becase he placed seals on people or had kunais with seals in specific areas to transport to. pein can only summon konan n the other paths to where the animal summon path is.

  45. Since I am not really in the mood for a prolonged debate I’d say that If it’s a 1 on 1 double match . Then as already decided , Itachi and pein is a draw . As for Kisame and Konan . It is definitely Kisame’s that guy has chakra comparable to a friggin’ Jinchuriki ? How long can Konan draw out a battle? So that’s a win for Team Itachi .
    If its 2 on 2 . Kisame and Itachi have great understanding and team work 😛 I doubt Pein and Konan share that. Besides Naruto beat the 6 paths didn’t he ? Why is it suddenly so hard for Itachi now?

    @pein Agreed Sasugay has more skill with the black flames. But my point was . Itachi is far more clever than Nagato , hence the link which says “oh so that’s what you did!” and “Itachi you bastard I thought the extra FIELD OF VISION from the rinnengan summons [ I point which was raised by ten] would be enough but you found a blind spot ” ” You’re just too damned skilled” etc etc and Itachi is FASTER than Nagato . Both are Facts. But as Discussed before both are literally equal . Because Nagato than has the upper hand in the techniques he can use . But then Itachi’s Special Weapons come into consideration , It’s not just the Susano’o but his sword and mirror which are one hit K.O as you know. It’s an evenly poised battle I give Itachi the Headsup because he is better off in the planning , analysis and evaluation department [ I got a C in that paper 😛 ] But we all agreed to a tie did we not ? So the deciding factor is Konan v.s Kisame . A beast v.s Paper bombs? You decide!

    As for you Saying Itachi wasn’t that smart? I’ve seen others raise that point as well. Here am I saying it for the 100th time . No Body is God , Yes not even pein[The Charcter from Naruto 😛 ]. I mean no one knows what’s going to be the future . But For Itachi to figure out Quite alot of it before hand and make arrangements that COULD work after his death is really nothing short of Amazing . He made mistakes , heck everybody does . But he was one of the best , if not the best, In terms of Planning a battle , Analyzing a situation , Coming up with the best possible Plan. Just because some of his Plans failed , that is not a reason to Ridicule his reasoning .

  46. Ok for one thing it wouldn’t just be two battles side by side where Pein surrounds Itachi and Konan and Kisame duke it out. What’s the point in a tag team if it weren’t two on two? Now I do not doubt Itachi and Kisame would probably want it that way since Konan doesn’t do much on her own, and I will concede that (against these two), but what she does do is supplement Pein very well, particularly against these two.

    It is an entirely different battle this time that it was in the previous debate. I am with Darks that Pein ultimately looked more threatening with his six paths than with the powers in one body. And really? Just saying Itachi wins because he is a genius or better or whatever is not debating at all. It’s nothing in fact. Same goes for saying Itachi and Kisame work better together when it was never shown for them to work together further than agreeing who would watch and who would fight. Konan and Pein have shown co-operation, against Jiraiya and in the invasion, that at the very least bests the teamwork shown of their opponents.

  47. So are we supposed to do ALL of the debate again? All I said above was that Itachi tops pein in two departements i.e Brain and Speed. Whereas Pein significantly tops Itachi in power and techniques Departement . Which in turn puts them at equal footing. Either one could win. Plot No Jutsu would probably play a VITAL role here. But for all that matters Kisame could just pull off that Attack he did against gai and Itachi can get Pein’s real body with his sword. What else could happen eh ? By Adding Konan and Kisame , in my view things only got Worse for Pein .The battle was more Even if It was Simply Itachi v.s Pein

  48. Why would Peins real body be sat there? Doesn’t that negate the point of the paths? I would be happy to consider it a Team Itachi win should all the paths lose as well as Konan but I don’t think you could simply say they will go finish off Nagato and be done with it. Did Itachi and Kisame even know Pein’s secret? Well it doesn’t matter anyway.
    I’m not saying we do the debate again. That would be silly. But I think saying Itachi is equal because he is smart where Pein is strong doesn’t quite add up. Anyway, that’s something neither of us want to talk about in detail so I will move on.

    Konan isn’t useless!
    She makes clones for one thing. Clones that further piss of Itachi and his Tsukiyomi quest. Or eat up his chakra while he Amaterasu’s them. Or waste his time and leave him open and generally do all that good distracting stuff Naruto’s little squads always do except this time they would be running around and instead of a timely Rasengan we have soul sucking or body crushing or chakra draining or whatever death the closest Pein deals out.
    Oh yeah chakra drain. I wonder what would happen should Samehada come up against that path of Pein. (It would lose…)
    Sorry I got a little swept away there but I have calmed down again. She isn’t as useless as you make out. Especially when you consider how she can help Pein in this fight. Kisame on the other hand, is more useless than you make out. Especially when you consider how he can hinder Itachi in this fight. Should he make a giant moving swimming pool, Itachi is stuck in that too. Should he make giant waves to swim about on, well it just means water can get kicked up and stop Itachi’s fireballs. Not to mention the attacks are all chakra which can be absorbed by Pein and Konan can just butterfly herself away.
    Kisame’s fighting revolves around the robbing of chakra in close range and bombardment of water jutsu from far away. That will not work in this fight.

  49. @Ahsan

    You’re seriously underestimating Konan. It’s true that she prepared for Madara, but that doesn’t change the fact that she can split a lake with her paper. http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-16/naruto/chapter-509.html She had to prepare the explosive tags, but against Itachi and Kisame she could just use normal paper to smother them or immobilize them.

    Why wouldn’t she be able to turn the battlefield into paper and swallow Kisame and Itachi in it? It would probably drain her of all her chakra, but they would be dead or severely wounded, perfect for pein to finish off.

  50. @cyborg – remember, Itachi can use Water-style jutsus as well.

  51. @ Ten,

    The whole Tsukuyomi for the Win was a joke… Surely, nobody believes Itachi can Tsukuyomi his way out of a battle with the 6 paths of Pain. That would be madness.

    Debate in general,

    If you’d ask me for my opinion, or rather, the odds on the outcome of this battle I’d say the 6 paths of Pain has the best chance of winning.
    But Itachi is a clever fighter, even with the odds against him (never tell him the odds!) he could come out on top.

    First of all, as others have pointed out, Itachi can assess (no Pickles, not asses) a situation very quickly. With his high intellect he’s perfectly capable of finding others weaknesses. (no Pickles, again! not asses)
    Second, he’s perfectly capable to capitalize on those weaknesses. During his fight with Nagato he was able to attack Nagato and two summons from the Rinnegan’s blind spot. Effectively nullifying the Rinnegan’s CCTV-no-jutsu. Off course with the 6 Paths of Pain and summons that will be a lot harder but not impossible. If Kisame makes the 6PoP and the summons turn their attention to him Itachi can pull it off. And we all know Kisame can attract attention.
    With the CCTV-no-jutsu nullified Itachi can take out one or more Paths. If he takes out the Naraka Path, Pain will immediately be in trouble (well sort of). If he doesn’t than Naraka path bringing back the bodies he does take out will immediately divert Itachi’s (and Kisame’s) attention to destroying the Naraka path.
    As for Pain’s attacks, the summons are useless unless Pain wants to feed Samehade and Kisame chakra. Same goes for any ninjutsu.
    Animal Path could be a problem but he isn’t the fastest of the bunch and not particularly skilled in taijutsu (remember Jiraiya’s kick to Animal Paths face) and Kisame or Itachi probably won’t stand Idle by as Animal Path tries to pull the soul out of their comrade.
    Preta Path could be a threat but will his chakra sucking technique rival or even best Samehade? We don’t know.
    Asura Path can be destructive but Kisame and Itachi are perfectly capable to defend against it’s attacks.
    Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tennin are probably useless on both Itachi and Kisame. Itachi will use Susano’o to brace himself and Kisame can heal from any injury thanks to Samehade. As for Bansho Tennin on Kisame… Who in his right mind would want to pull someone with an appetite for life force closer to himself…. That’s like saying, EAT ME!! against Tenrai. ^__^
    One thing is for sure, your demise will be swift.

    Where’s Konan in all this? Well, although she can compliment Pain in battle against random ninja army’s I just don’t see her holding her own against Kisame or Itachi (let alone both). If she get’s close to either of them she’ll be in trouble. Tsukuyomi will leave her dribbling and Samehade will tare her apart like a malfunctioning paper shredder going to town on a stack of A4 sheets. The best way for her to take part in this fight is stand next to Nagato to tell him to take it easy because he’s got a bloody nose just like she did when Naruto fought Pain.

    Speaking of which, If I understand the rules of this debate correctly that means Nagato isn’t in this battle correct? It’s purely Pain+Konan vs Kisame+Itachi. Or can Nagato come trolling in saying “They see me rollin, they hatin”.

  52. “Why wouldn’t she be able to turn the battlefield into paper and swallow Kisame and Itachi in it? It would probably drain her of all her chakra, but they would be dead or severely wounded, perfect for pein to finish off.”

    I seriously doubt one can smother Susano’o with a bit of paper. And Kisame? Well first he’ll suck the chakra out of her attack and second, any injury she does manage to produce will just be healed immediately after the attack. Kisame survived his chest being ripped apart, I’m fairly certain he can survive papercuts. ^__^

  53. You guys really are one sided aren’t you. As a Impartial viewer to this debate I will say the following.

    Itachi can overcome Konan’s paper scatter jutsu via his sharingan, remember the sharingan slows everything down quite a lot, and for a expert user like Itachi I doubt he wouldn’t see Konan’s move coming.

    Also Itachi is the fastest fighter in this fight, I don’t care how many rockets asura path has up his ass, Itachi is the fastest and most skilled diversion master in the Narutoverse showing many times throughout the manga incredibly linked attacks down to the T.

    Konan has the advantage of great long range attcks, the thing that made Deidara the most annoying shinobi in the narutoverse in my book, but ultimately that’s what gives you a great edge in battle so Konan can attack from a distance without being prone to great damage.

    Now both Itachi and Kisame have great long range attacks like the shark missile, amaterasu, the move itachi did against’s Nagato’s chibaku tensei with Naruto and Bee, and many others.
    I doubt Konan isn’t prepared for the fight but the pure fact is we don’t know shit about Konan’s true potential, so speculation won’t do us any good.
    To witch I add both itachi and Kiasme have a better chance at winning against Konan, individually, then she dose.

    Now to Nagato. The dude is awesome beyond any shinobi in the narutoverse but his biggest downside is the lack of maturity or better said lack of strategy and planning. The dude only relies on his great skill to get the job done. But shinobi like the 3rd Raikage proved that one man can outlast 10000 if need be. So power isn’t everything, Itachi, like Ahsan already said, (the proof is in the manga, and that’s the one most trusted argument) found Nagato’s short comings in a really short time, he burned the summons and destroyed chibaku tensei and sealed Nagato in no more then 4 pages.

    Now I don’t care how diverse the 6 paths will be, Itachi has Kisame for the muscle, Kisame who can absorb chakra as well and can beat jinchuriki on his own, so the time Itachi needs to fight and figure Nagato’s six paths is at his disposal. Jirayia managed to figure out Nagto’s secret, what do you think a master sharingan user with a great mind will do with that time.

    Also, how stupid do you guys think Itachi and Kisame are, how can you even speculate Kisame will unleash the water dome without knowing Itachi took notice and fled beforehand.

    Remember deidara and tobi’s hidden underground bomb plan, how much time do you guys think they had to prepare for that being new to each other. Think about that before you go second guessing a partnership like itachi and Kisame’s, who have been great team mates in the akatsuki.

    C’mon guys if we’re to make a good debate let’s at least give this great shinobi the respect they deserve. They are, by the way, 4 of the strongest shinobi in the manga and the child mistakes can’t happen here with this guys like they used to pop out with Naruto, kiba, hinata, sakura and all the other rookies.

    This guys are experts and every move they make will be a very well though out one.

  54. Join the dark side of the force… good good

  55. Heh, the “dark” side. 😀

  56. @red – No Nagato this time. Just the 6 Paths and Konan vs Kisame and Itachi.

  57. @all: not sure what all the debate is about.. i think we all know this fight would ultimately be settled in a rousing session of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock!

  58. @Baron

    “I seriously doubt one can smother Susano’o with a bit of paper.”

    A bit of paper? We’re talking about enough paper to split a lake. Also, Danzo was able to restrict Susano’o’s movements with the Baku’s suction, so massive quantities of paper should have the same effect. It’s true Itachi’s Susano’o is better than Sasuke’s incomplete version, but its shield and sword would be useless against small sheets of non-elemental paper. It’s like trying to catch a swarm of flies with a big stick. You might catch a few, but the rest will get away.

    “And Kisame? Well first he’ll suck the chakra out of her attack and second, any injury she does manage to produce will just be healed immediately after the attack. Kisame survived his chest being ripped apart, I’m fairly certain he can survive papercuts. ^__^”

    Well, he can suck the chakra out of her paper but I seriously doubt he’ll be able to cut one million paper sheets without getting injured. And you can shrug off one papercut, but millions of them?
    Plus, he only survived his chest being ripped apart because Samehada had absorbed the Eight Tail’s massive chakra. Where would he get that much chakra in this fight?

  59. @Dragon: Not just one million sheets of paper but up to 600 billion….
    Oh also, she can fly and water (normal water at least) and fire jutsu don’t work on Konan like they should on paper. She’s actually quite awesome. But the only fights we saw properly were against oil spitting Jiraiya and hax Madara (who she weakened more than anyone else has so far…)

    @Baron: Would all six paths of Pein and Konan and summons all end up looking at Kisame because he was putting on a water show? Pein doesn’t even have to turn his heads if one of them is looking so there really would be no point in that.

    @Whoever talked about Itachi being out of the way before Kisame made a swimming pool: You know the water can be absorbed or shinrai tensei’d anyway right?

  60. “A bit of paper? We’re talking about enough paper to split a lake. Also, Danzo was able to restrict Susano’o’s movements with the Baku’s suction, so massive quantities of paper should have the same effect. It’s true Itachi’s Susano’o is better than Sasuke’s incomplete version, but its shield and sword would be useless against small sheets of non-elemental paper. It’s like trying to catch a swarm of flies with a big stick. You might catch a few, but the rest will get away.”

    Chakra infused paper. Her attacks aren’t done with the Force. Such massive amounts of paper will do nicely for Samehade’s (and Kisame’s) appetite. So while Konan tries her best to damage Susano’o, Kisame will scrape the paper off of Susano’o and grow stronger.

    “Not just one million sheets of paper but up to 600 billion….”

    Yes, that she prepared before Madara arrived.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/510/3
    No such luck in this battle.
    So there’s no proof that she could use an attack as massive as that in any other battle. And even if she could, the attack drains her of all her chakra.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/510/7
    She won’t be able to kill Kisame or Itachi with it so the attack will only slow them down at best.

    “Plus, he only survived his chest being ripped apart because Samehada had absorbed the Eight Tail’s massive chakra. Where would he get that much chakra in this fight?”

    Kisame already has a massive amount of chakra at his disposal. So to say he can only heal after absorbing another massive amount of chakra is again based on nothing but an assumption. Kisame didn’t only heal after he absorbed that chakra, he also used the Mega Water Burst Shock Wave and the Water Prison Shark Dance Jutsu.

    “Would all six paths of Pein and Konan and summons all end up looking at Kisame because he was putting on a water show? Pein doesn’t even have to turn his heads if one of them is looking so there really would be no point in that. ”

    What Konan sees doesn’t matter. She doesn’t have a Rinnegan, so she isn’t part of the CCTV-no-jutsu. And Pain and his summons will definitely be looking at Kisame if he charges at them. As I said, Itachi being able to utilize the weakness of Pains CCTV-no-jutsu is based on the fact that he did just that in his fight with Nagato. Within a matter of seconds he figured out the Rinnegan shares a field of vision and found the Rinnegans blind spot. That’s why Itachi is considered a genius prodigy of the Uchiha clan.

    “Whoever talked about Itachi being out of the way before Kisame made a swimming pool: You know the water can be absorbed or shinrai tensei’d anyway right?”

    First off, Kisame controls the water and turns it into a massive water prison. With that fact in mind couldn’t he be able to create a sphere of air for Itachi?
    And second, Water cannot be absorbed, the chakra inside it can. With that the massive water prison would turn back into the massive body of water.
    And Shinra Tensei, I doubt it can push something as big as Kisame’s massive water prison out of the way. Off course, he could use the super Shinra Tensei but since that only destroys scenery without actually killing anyone in it that would be like handing the victory to Kisame and Itachi on a silver platter since the other 5 Paths of Pain will immediately go ‘off line’ and Deva won’t be able to use his power’s afterwards for some time.

  61. “not sure what all the debate is about.. i think we all know this fight would ultimately be settled in a rousing session of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock!”

    You’re probably right. LOL.
    Scissors cut paper
    Paper covers rock
    Rock crushes lizard
    Lizard poisons Spock
    Spock smashes scissors
    Scissors decapitate lizard
    Lizard eats paper
    Paper disproves Spock
    Spock vaporizes rock
    Rock crushes scissors

    Although Itachi can’t be beaten in a game like this because of his Sharingan. >__>

  62. @Baron:

    *Deep breath*

    ‘Yes, that she prepared before Madara arrived.’
    I used a handy phrase ‘up to’. The point was to illustrate the limits of her control, not what she would be using. I did the maths in an earlier post to explain how many explosive tags she could create in a single second which the manga gives enough information to extrapolate accurately, but I wasn’t talking about that in this instance.

    ‘Water cannot be absorbed, the chakra inside it can.’
    That’s like saying the fire Jiraiya spat couldn’t be absorbed, only the chakra, which would still leave hot flames burning but those flames happened to dissapear.

    And finally the only reason the giant shinra tensei only destroyed scenery was because Tsunade was there, with her slugs, protecting everyone. Its quite possibly the definition of an indescriminate attack. And since we aren’t allowed to go for insta-kills (despite your obsession with Sussan’o (don’t you know how much it hurts Itachi?!)) I wasn’t really talking about it but yeah, leave the other Peins for ‘dead’ have Konan behind him, or not doesn’t really matter, she can fly and water doesn’t bother her paper, and just blast the pair of them. Now obviously scenery would be required for this to really hurt but come on, if it was a horizontal attack as it probably would be in this scenario, and they didn’t die, then they would be really far away while Deva path made a chibaku tensai or Konan used her origami skills to make thousands of paper bombs every second…

    ‘But Itachi’s Susano’o would…’ (I don’t mean any disrespect with this but I’m simply predicting the responses and the opponents seem to be jumping to)
    The thing kills him!!! He barely used it before it was revealed and do you know why? Because it hurts and it makes you go blind really really really (really!!!) fast. We all saw what sasuke was like after he spammed its incomplete form a couple of times and summoned it twice right? Even if Itachi pulls it out and even if he goes and messes up Konan who is supposedly as crap as Tenten in everyones eyes, and even if Kisame summons fountains and waterfalls and shark torpedoes and even if Amaterasu is swimming around in this grand specticle of a best and highly unlikely scenario for that team and a horrible one for team pein, you really think that Pein, with the strength that messed up the whole of Konoha both while taking it easily trying to get information and then when he didn’t care anymore and then went on to fight Naruto in his super saiyan sage mode while still being able to take it easy since he didn’t want him dead, will just keel over when he is a full power? It would be an outrageously long fight on his part, one that would no doubt last past Itachi’s eyes.

  63. @Franky

    “That’s like saying the fire Jiraiya spat couldn’t be absorbed, only the chakra, which would still leave hot flames burning but those flames happened to dissapear.”

    Actually that’s perfectly fine . Fire is a form of energy well technically not but practically yes . It’s heat energy . If there is no fire there would be no heat energy so if you zap out all the energy the fire goes out. As for water all the energy it has is it’s momentum . You can’t just make it vanish out of thin air by absorbing it’s energy

  64. I don’t really feel like getting my science on for the sake of manga again. It never works out and gets to complicated. To put it simply, Pa frog said ninjutsu did not work on that path of pein, so please accept that it does not.

  65. Lol That was what Pa frog and Jiraya “Figured out” . That’s not a fact that was conveyed .

  66. “That’s like saying the fire Jiraiya spat couldn’t be absorbed, only the chakra, which would still leave hot flames burning but those flames happened to dissapear.”

    What Ahsan said.

    As for the use of Susano’o. I’ve only used Susano’o for Itachi’s defence so far. Itachi doesn’t need to summon the full Susano’o to brace himself against shinra tensei or defend against Animal Paths summons, Asura Paths explosives or Konan’s exploding tags. Remember Itachi only had the skeleton around him when Sasuke attacked him with Kirin, one of the most powerful attacks in the Narutoverse.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/15

    “He barely used it before it was revealed and do you know why? Because it hurts and it makes you go blind really really really (really!!!) fast.”

    It hurts but it doesn’t make you go blind really really really (really!!!) fast. Remember Itachi was already as good as blind (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/3) when he went into that fight. Not to mention sick and dying. After he used Amaterasu one of his eyes already lost all of it’s light.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/13
    In this debate Itachi is younger and healthy and therefore perfectly capable of using Susano’o like Sasuke did against Danzo first and Kakashi later before he went almost blind.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/484/11.

    If you do want to throw Susano’o in completely then consider the Sword of Totsuka. A sword that seals anyone and anything it pierces (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/392/14) and slices through objects like a knife through butter.
    With that sword Animal Path instantly become useless.
    Preta Path can´t absorb it because it´s an ethereal blade, not a chakra blade.
    Asura Path and Konan can´t attack Susano´o because it´s shield repels all attacks physical attacks.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/393/6
    Human Path and Naraka Path are pretty useless whether Susano’o is used or not since they can only attack up close and personal which is ‘suicide’ against a sharingan user who can see any attack coming and a jinchuuriki-level ninja who absorbs green berets for breakfast.
    That only leaves Deva path being able to attack Kisame and Itachi and although he is the strongest and most dangerous path he can be beaten. Especially when Kisame keeps trying to get in close while Itachi backs him up with his kunai throwing skills.
    Also, let’s not forget Kisame can use doton to submerge himself and attack Pain from underneath effectively working around Shinra Tensei.

    A full Susano’o means Pain and Konan will have no choice but to switch to a long range formation trying their best to stay out of reach of Itachi’s and Kisame’s attacks/grasp. If Konan get’s too close Itachi’s genjutsu will do her in, and remember Itachi doesn’t need eye contact to place someone like Konan under genjutsu. If Konan does look into Itachi’s eyes she will be out of the fight immediately.

  67. Like I said before, unless Pain starts off with the heavy punches this can turn to Itachi’s and Kisame’s favor with Itachi’s intellect and Kisame’s endurance.
    Konan is definitely not Tenten but against powerhouses like Itachi and Kisame she just doesn’t cut it. She only looked as good as she did against Madara because she took the time to prepare. Not just in terms of weaponry but also in terms of strategy, possible scenario’s and consideration of all possible outcomes so that she had all her bases covered.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/510/10
    The biggest part of that preparation was her knowledge of Madara’s weaknesses. Take away all that and she’s perfectly capable of killing large numbers off random ninja’s but not capable enough to threaten someone like Kisame or Itachi.
    Her only role in this fight should be trying to guard Naraka Path from any damage.

    That leaves Pain who always starts with summons. Powerful summons but summons that Kisame can take care off. If Kisame does find the summons too much to handle Itachi can Amaterasu them into submission.
    After that Pain will attack with either Deva or Asura Path. If he attacks with Asura Path he’ll only make Kisame stronger and Itachi can defend with a partially formed Susano’o.
    If he attacks with Deva Path he’s got more of a winning chance but this will also spur Itachi into summoning Susano’o completely which negates Deva Paths effectiveness.
    Only Kisame will have trouble against Shinra Tensei but he can heal any injury and Itachi will quickly figure out the 5 second rule and capitalize on that and take out Deva Path.
    With Deva Path taken out Kisame can go to town and kill/destroy Konan, Animal, Human, Preta and Asura while being supported by Itachi’s clone and/or Kunai skill. Naraka Path will ressurrect Deva Path making Itachi and Kisame turn their attention to Naraka before Naraka resurrects more paths.
    Deva Path won’t be able to defend himself and Naraka at the same time so Naraka will be destroyed. This will force Deva to retreat and try to form Chibaku Tensei.
    Kisame can counter this by launching his massive water attack before Deva get’s away and fusing with Samehada. Inside the massive water prison Deva won’t be able to get away from Kisame, especially in his fused form. Kisame can make the kill. Fight over and Itachi and Kisame will be victorious.

    And that’s without Susano’o’s ‘more-powerful-than-a-mod-banning-you-for-life’ sword (or as some people call it ‘the sword of Totsuka’), Tsukuyomi or Yasaka Magatama.

  68. Its an aweful convenient scenario though. One that would no doubt work if it all went like that but its still quite convenient. (Just want to point out that I don’t really think badly of Kisame or Itachi at all but it kind of comes with the territory to make them seem as bad as possible right? Or it just happens when we talk about them losing…)
    Anyway, some questions then to change the pace of this.
    What if Kisame is attacked with Preta or Human path first? Wouldn’t he relish the thought of close combat?
    If Konan just sat back wouldn’t she be able to make loads and loads of paper which would negate Amaterasuby flying around everywhere?
    And what if, all of Konoha and also Naruto for his many attempts, Itachi could not simply ‘get rid’ of Deva path in the 5 second interval?

  69. sorry red, your post seemed to have gotten stuck in akismet’s spam filters, cleared it now with my apologies.

    just a heads up, akismet automatically flags posts with 5 links or more as spam. i’ll ask the other admins and se if we can increase said limit, but for now, just be mindful of it.

  70. Will consider it, thanks Darks.

    “Anyway, some questions then to change the pace of this.
    What if Kisame is attacked with Preta or Human path first? Wouldn’t he relish the thought of close combat?”

    Yes he would. The real answer here would be, can Preta absorb chakra faster than Kisame/Samehada? From what we’ve seen Samehada can absorb a massive amount of chakra in one swipe and Kisame is perfectly capable to drain chakra without Samehada. The only ‘weakness’ of Samehada and Kisame is the amount of chakra they can absorb not the speed at which they do so. Preta Path can absorb and absorb and absorb.
    But based on the manga I reckon Preta is slower at absorbing chakra. It took some time absorbing both Jiraiya’s attacks (oil frying jutsu and his Barak Obama Rasengan) and it also took a moment to absorb Naruto’s Rasenshuriken. Kisame might not be able to drain as much as Preta but being faster in draining he would win that tug-o-war between them.

    Human path on the other hand relies solely on grabbing his victim and puling out their souls. In terms of Taijutsu Human path is good but not great. We’ve seen how powerful Kisame is at close range and Taijutsu. Human path couldn’t grab Jiraiya who didn’t have a sword with an appetite for flesh and bones so I don’t see him grabbing Kisame. And even if he does Kisame will rob him of chakra before he can pull Kisame’s soul out.

    “If Konan just sat back wouldn’t she be able to make loads and loads of paper which would negate Amaterasuby flying around everywhere?”

    Sure, but that would leave her open to attack. Unless she can make exploding tags while dodging Itachi’s kunai, fire jutsu, his regular genjutsu and Kisame’s shark missiles or other water attacks.

    “And what if, all of Konoha and also Naruto for his many attempts, Itachi could not simply ‘get rid’ of Deva path in the 5 second interval?”

    Itachi has got several fast attacks at his disposal. His sharingan enhanced kunai skills are definitely hard to dodge, especially from the Rinnegans blind spot. Furthermore he can make exploding clones. If Deva tries to pull one of those in with Bansho Tennin he’s done for. And let’s not forget Amaterasu, the attack that ignites on target in stead of going towards the target like other ninjutsu. Deva can’t survive that, especially within the 5 second interval.

  71. You know. Even though Sasuke has the EMS, and he no longer has to worry about damage to his eyes, he still is limited to the amount of chakra he has. He can’t just spam his MS techniques, especially Susanoo. Otherwise, Naruto would never be able to hit him.

    There’s little doubt that he is now on a whole new level from when it was just his own eyes. But like Naruto, there’s a limit to how much he can use that power, despite the “eternal” aspect of it.

  72. Pain has Preta path that can absorb Chakra but how would Itachi and Kisame dodge Shinra Tensei dodge Shinra Tensei. Also Asura path is superfast. Also if Konan barrage Kisame long enough for Asura/Human to gone in for the kill bam he’s dead or have him engage Preta Path and Asura Path. Not to mention Pein’s Chakra Rods can disrupt chakra also has the Rinnegan hasn’t been proved to be immune to Visual genjutsu.

  73. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-393/page009.html

  74. Well, will you look at that. Completely invincible. Thanks うちは -Noom. ^__^

    What’s especially interesting in that is Zetsu saying ‘any attack’, not just ninjutsu. So there’s a good chance it can turn back attacks like Shinra Tensei as well.

    “how would Itachi and Kisame dodge Shinra Tensei”

    They wouldn’t. The only way to dodge it is with a space-time jutsu like Minato’s or Madara’s. But like I said, Itachi can brace himself or keep himself from getting hurt from Shinra Tensei by using Susano’o and Kisame can use doton to submerge himself to greatly lessen the effect or negate the effect completely or heal if he does get hit.
    “Also Asura path is superfast.”
    No it isn’t. It has chakra propulsion which allows it to travel at high speeds. It’s movements are like any other Pain. Great but not superfast. If it was superfast Naruto wouldn’t have been able to get him with a rasengan.
    A and Bee are superfast, Minato was superfast, Naruto with Kyuubi cloak is superfast. Asura Path just isn’t.

    “Also if Konan barrage Kisame long enough for Asura/Human to gone in for the kill bam he’s dead”

    Like I said earlier, Konan’s paper attacks are chakra based. Her paper would feed Kisame or Samehada with chakra. Same goes for Human path laying his hands on Kisame, Kisame would drain his chakra before Human can pull his soul out. That only leaves Asura’s Taijutsu skills, which we haven’t seen. We know Asura Path has lots of weaponry but most of those are explosions or chakra based attacks which are all useless against Kisame. That leaves the flexible saw weapon as the only threat to Kisame but seeing as Kisame is a very skilled sword fighter and Samehada is large enough to block any attack Kisame will have the upper hand.

    “Not to mention Pein’s Chakra Rods can disrupt chakra.”

    True, but for that to happen Pain needs to stab Kisame or Itachi first. Itachi with Susano’o can’t get stabbed and without Itachi has shown to be quite capable in avoiding damage by either dodging attacks or using clones. Kisame might get stabbed but seeing as Samehada drains chakra even if it’s not directly touching the source, Pain would only be feeding Samehada.

    “also has the Rinnegan hasn’t been proved to be immune to Visual genjutsu.”

    You’re right, it hasn’t been proved to be immune to visual genjutsu.

  75. @Baron: I am happy to yield now. I don’t know this manga well enough to keep countering you. I would be happy if someone else kept up the Pein camp but I am happy to say you have beaten me.
    (Konan isn’t useless!! >_<)

  76. lol franky, ofcourse konan isn’t useless. For her to be even this strong in a manga like naruto is nothing short of amazing. P.s The pein team is missing ten it seems! GO RED finish them before he makes a comeback

  77. oh and how bout a kisame v.s kakashi debate for next week

  78. “(Konan isn’t useless!! >_<)"

    Agreed. Her problem in this debate is that she would be fighting two of the most powerful Akatsuki members. No doubt Pain ranks highest but Itachi and Kisame are defenitely next in the order. Off course this doesn't include Madara. Itachi is just short of invincible with the Mangekyou Sharingan and Susano'o and Kisame has got such an endurance that it'll be hard to outlast him.
    Konan would definitely be able to hold her own or defeat Akatsuki members like Deidara, Sasori or Kakuzu.

    "how bout a kisame v.s kakashi debate for next week"

    Kakashi would win, didn't you see his rampage? Neither did I. That says it all doesn't it. ^__^

    All kidding aside here's something interesting, I don't know if someone else stumbled on this already so if they have, my apologies.
    Anyway, first is a part of mangastream translation;
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81418428/13
    Here Kabuto babbles something that just doesn't make sense.
    And then here's the mangareader translation;
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/553/12
    That makes a lot more sense.

    So I guess we'll see who is in that mystery coffin that has got Madara so spooked.

  79. @Baron

    “That only leaves Asura’s Taijutsu skills, which we haven’t seen.”

    We have. http://www.mangareader.net/93-384-15/naruto/chapter-379.html http://www.mangareader.net/93-384-17/naruto/chapter-379.html
    He ripped off Jiraiya’s arm. You have to admit, you need a lot of strength to do that. And he also crushed Jiraiya’s throat without the other paths’ help. http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-15/naruto/chapter-381.html
    You can see his helmet, so he did it alone.
    So, his Taijutsu skills actually are quite powerful.

    Also, are Asura’s rockets chakra-based or are they mechanical? Because Samehada can absorb chakra (and elements because they are transformed chakra), but it can’t absorb mechanical weapons. We’ve also seen that Asura’s body is robotic and not human, so his weapons might not be powered by chakra.

  80. “He ripped off Jiraiya’s arm. You have to admit, you need a lot of strength to do that.”

    That was an explosion. Notice the big blast afterwards.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-384-16/naruto/chapter-379.html

    And he also crushed Jiraiya’s throat without the other paths’ help. http://www.mangareader.net/93-386-15/naruto/chapter-381.html
    You can see his helmet, so he did it alone.

    Good eye there, I had to look several times but I think you’re right it is Asura who punches him in the throat.

    “So, his Taijutsu skills actually are quite powerful.”
    Indeed, but so is Kisame. And Kisame has the nasty habit of healing from any non-lethal attack.

    “Also, are Asura’s rockets chakra-based or are they mechanical? Because Samehada can absorb chakra (and elements because they are transformed chakra), but it can’t absorb mechanical weapons. We’ve also seen that Asura’s body is robotic and not human, so his weapons might not be powered by chakra.”

    He’s got a variety of weapons consisting of rockets mostly, a mechanical T-X arm (female terminator), his six arms, a flexible saw/sword- somethingamajimmy and rocket boots (actually chakra propulsion but rocket boots sound way cooler imo).
    The blast fire rockets produce is thermal energy, energy that Samehada can absorb because it’s basically the same as fire. The mechanical arm fires chakra blasts so those can be absorbed as well.
    That leaves the saw and the six arms.

    Furthermore, as they fight Samehada will be stealing chakra gradually growing stronger and stronger while Asura becomes weaker.
    Remember, all Paths run on chakra.

  81. hmmm….

    Non-lethal should be lethal… Off course. >__>

  82. this last chapter got me thinkin about another debate that could apply to the next break down..another tag team bout.

    A & Bee vs. Naruto & Gaara 😀

    dundunduhhhhhhh

  83. @ Noom – the water bubble jutsu would be ineffective against Pain’s Paths they don’t need to breath <_< they are dead bodies 😉

    We can assume that Nagato knows about Itachi's jutsu but I don't think it works both ways hey, since Itachi worked under Pain he could be under surveillance with Zetsu being the cam corder but the other way is unlikely.

    @ Ahsan – Itachi is Faster then Nagato, not his paths! That is pure speculation on your part because his Nagato Body was not as Fast doesn't mean Pain isn't plus I am sure Kakashi can attest to the paths not being Slow 😉

    Also this is a tag match we agreed, (Not me) that Itachi vs Nagato was a draw, not Itachi vs 7 plus how many Summons, so yeah that whole, these 2 draw so this one wins doesn't cut it for me.

    – My problem is, even if Itachi is smarter you saying Pain is an idiot? lets say Pain has 8/10 Intel and Itachi has 10/10 its only 2/10 difference. but we don't work on stats. Itachi in this battle looked good since he had the 2 most powerful fighters basically with some of the largest chakra reserves and still they struggled against a "slow" and only 3 Sets of Eyes, Pain would have almost 3 Times that, so yeah the no Blind Spot will still be on the table!

    – If the other paths minus Animal and Deva keep Itachi and Kisame busy then Chibiku Tensei their @$$ just as Itachi says Sa out of his Susanoo, he will be blown up like Konoha and even if Itachi still survives we have an Uzumaki hax Chakra vs someone who doesn't have the Chakra reserve of a Flea in comparison 😛 So ITachi will win

  84. Skip to 5:54. It’s definitely Asura Path.

  85. I think people are seriously underestimating the six paths of Pein here. I see a lot of arguments about how Itachi is smarter or how he’s a superior thinker, etc, but let’s put things into perspective, shall we?

    During the Pein invasion arc, Kakashi fought two of Peins bodies. Deva Path and Asura Path. Now, I think we can all agree that Kakashi is a tactician on Itachi’s level. In fact, he graduated from the academy at the age of FIVE and became a chunin by the age of six, which is half the age Itachi was when he became a chunin. He has also been compared to a Nara in terms of genius level thinking and tactics as well.

    I think that in itself proves that as far as genius goes, Kakashi is at the very least on Itachi’s level, possibly even smarter. We also know that Kakashi has doujutsu on a similar level to Itachi’s Amatarasu in the form of Kamui and he knows over 1000 other jutsu in addition to that as well. Yet, even he could not defeat only two of Pein’s bodies, and that was with help from Chouza and Chouji, who are actually the ones who took out Asura path.

    Imagine fighting all six at once. Even though Kakashi was able to figure out Pein’s jutsu and initiate a plan that takes advantage of the five second window Shinra Tensei allows for a counter attack, he still failed to kill even one of Pein’s bodies, much less anything else.

    This in itself shows that being smarter or even having a wider variety of jutsu is not always enough to overcome raw power.

    As for Kisame, let’s face the facts here, he doesn’t stand a chance against Pein. Shinra Tensei is a shock wave of physical force and therefore cannot be absorbed by the Samehada. Hell, all Pein needs is Deva Path to take out Kisame, he doesn’t even need to involve his other bodies. I can admit that Kisame was one of the strongest shinobi to ever live, but he just doesn’t have the right skills to fight Pein at all.

    I also think people are seriously underestimating Konan’s involvement in this fight as well. I’ve already given examples of how she can literally fight at range without having to rely on eyesight. She can use hundreds, if not thousands of explosive tags to cover the battlefield and she can split apart into thousands of pieces of paper if her enemies use long range counter attacks, making her a nearly impossible target to hit.

    As I mentioned before, Itachi would be stupid to waste a jutsu like Amatarasu to try and hit a target he can’t even identify, because all he will do is tire himself out and waste vital chakra. All Konan would need to do is use ranged attacks to force Itachi on the defensive, while Pein positions himself to use Chibaku Tensei or even Gedo Mazo. (Yes, let’s not forget that Deva path can still summon Gedo Mazo.)

    As for the idea that Konan is weak against water, she has fought in a torrent of rain, used her paper in the rain without any problems from her paper being soaked by water and hid her most powerful jutsu in an ocean, which didn’t seem to do anything to dampen its effects. *cough*pun*cough*.

    @Baron

    Yes, Susanoo does basically make Itachi invincible. However, the irony is that it also slowly kills him as well and drains his chakra faster than any of his other techniques. All Konan and Pein have to do is stay out of range of his sword and wait for Itachi to wear himself out, which won’t take long with Susanoo. Or, all Pein has to do is use Chibaku Tensei and trap Itachi in an inescapable prison of earth while he is crushed by the forces of gravity. Susanoo may not let any kind of jutsu through, but gravity isn’t a force that can be protected against by any kind of armor.

    Let’s also not forget that Itachi himself said that all jutsu have weaknesses, without exception. He knows his own jutsu better than anyone so if he says that, then it must be true for Susanoo as well.

  86. Hey, there he is! Sup ten 😄

  87. Lol. Hey Darks. Sorry I’m late. I just don’t debate on weekends. 😛

  88. mmm, itachis susano might no just be as easy to dodge as people think

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-392/page013.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-551/page019.html

    does to attacks look pretty fast to me

    As for konan being able to just stand back and explode the whole place like boom boom boom and be practically imposible to hit that will make her like invincible, i just dont think her techniques work like that, but speculation won’t do any good

    Also, we actually don’t know how fast will itachi be worn out from using susano, his is healthy and all good, remember how sasuke with no chakra virtually left still spammed the hell out of it!, why not a healthy itachi with mastery over the technique, also the time he used susano against sasuke he was as good as dead, and he still took out orochimaru, and after that he was like, “come at me bro” (nothing to do with the debate but pretty badass XD)

    Also, the mirror is able to reflect any attack, which from my point of view means it can reflect shinra tensei, bansho tenin may be different but i dont think any path wants susano getting close to their face, and as for chibaku tensei or whatever the planet thing is called, that would leave deva wide open for a big good slash of totsukas

  89. oh oh oh, sorry for the bp but i forgot kisame!

    what i meant with the waterball getting them on trouble was thast i dont think they will be in equal ground of fighting anymore, try hitting someone underwater, its hard, also, even if you keep your eyes open it messes with your visibility and speedand everything, while it boosts kisames abilities

    and, this may be a little speculation no jutsu, but, the way i see it, chibaku tensei attracts an x number of mass into the ball it makes, which may mean that if all that amount of water is absorbed it may actually create a giant floating waterball, not to say that both time he used that it was 1 guy alone, i think if he uses it with his other paths they dun goofed, so if any of them are able to dodge, asura will be in serious trouble, also, more speculating-no-jutsu, if the paths are controlled through chakrathat comes from nagato, wouldn’t that mean that kisame absorbing their chakra will render them useless? i mean, it makes a lot of sense, or maybe I’m horribly wrong but i still don’t see how, when you think about it, the paths are dead bodies that work thanks to nagatos chakra, that has to be some big amount of chakra as their are not like puppets in which you only use some chakratrings to move them, but they are filled with it making them able to move and use techniques, that amount of chakra will be kisames dinner, and will empty them, turning them into dead bodies again right?

  90. @Noom

    A giant sphere of water means nothing to Shinra Tensei. Pein will just blow it away before it can even be remotely useful to Kisame. Kisame also can’t absorb Pein’s chakra if he can’t even get close to begin with, which he won’t if Shinra Tensei has anything to say about it.

    As I said in my above comment, Kisame just doesn’t have the means to fight Pein at all, because Pein’s abilities are perfectly designed to defeat someone like Kisame. Matching them up is basically suicidal.

    As for your points on Susanoo, Sasuke was able to spam it thanks to Zetsu recovering his chakra, that’s all.

    We’ve seen Itachi retreat from battles because of using his MS, knowing the drain it has on him. Well, Susanoo not only drains chakra, but it also causes severe physical pain to the user. This means that he will be worn out quickly if he overuses it. All Pein has to do is stay out of reach, or use Chibaku Tensei to suck Itachi up to a place where he can’t cause problems. It’s already been proven that Susanoo doesn’t protect Itachi from the gravitational effects of Chibaku Tensei.

  91. well, kisame may not be able to get close to deva, but he can to the others, and deva covering the other paths with his techniques will leave him open between each use of them, enough time to be slashed by tosuka’s or be hit with a explosive clone or whatever, and the waterball i meant with chibaku tensei, such a big amount of mass may be the counter to the gravitational ball, also shinra tensei effect may be diminished by the huge amount of water, which kisame seems completely able to move and control with little effort,
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-472/page003.html
    so even if the waterball gets blown i dont think it will be much trouble arraging the water again, what i mean is that it is more trouble for pein to break the waterball that for kisame to make it again, i just don’t see deva wasting his time exploting the waterball over and over, as that will leave him open and vulnerable, but at the same time i see no other choice for him as that waterball will get all the paths in big trouble if it stays up

  92. You know, Chibaku Tensei confuses me. If a gravitational pull is already strong enough to dislodge massive blocks of compacted earth underfoot, something that is not secured to the ground (ie a ninja standing underneath the jutsu) should have been sucked up already. Physics fail by Kishi.

    Also, for the debate (and I leave this entirely up to you guys to discuss amongst yourselves), I insist on one of the following three limitations be placed on this debate:

    * either each combatant knows nothing about each others abilities,
    * each combatant has a basic understanding of each other’s abilities, or
    * each combatant knows EVERYTHING there is to know about each other.

    People seem to think that because Pein was the Acting Team Leader for the group, that he knows practically everything about Itachi and Kisame, and Itachi won’t know much about him at all. They forget that Itachi joined Akatsuki to keep an eye on the group (and Madara), and finding out the capabilities of every member would have been of the highest importance in his mind. I feel it is only fair to assume then that Itachi has the same level of knowledge of Pein’s abilities as Pein does of his.

    Whatever outcome you all decide upon, tailor your arguments to it.

  93. well dark, i’ll go with a mix between the 2nd and third, which means good understanding of each other’s techniques but maybe not every little thing about them, also, another reason to belive itachi knew about pein is cuz when they revive by edo tensei itachi knows him and all, he knows about cctv or something no jutsu, why not about everything else

  94. @Noom

    Who says Pein’s just going to keep trying to affect Kisame’s water ball? Remember, Shinra Tensei is a powerful force. It will affect Kisame as well. A strong enough Shinra Tensei could even kill Kisame.

    Remember what it did to the three giant toads? That was just a normal shinra Tensei and it incapacitated three giant toads with a single blow and sent then flying far from the battlefield. If that happened to Kisame, he would be out for the count.

    Remember that Shinra Tensei would also push Itachi away, even if he’s in Susanoo, so no, it won’t leave a window open for the sword of whatever it is, or any other counter attacks. We’ve seen Susanoo being moved by outside physical forces and even though it protects the user inside, it doesn’t stop them from being pushed, pulled, thrown, sucked up or otherwise displaced.

    We’ve seen examples of this with Nagato’s Chibaku Tensei pulling Itachi up into the air even with Susanoo active, and Danzou’s wind jutsu from his big elephant crossbreed summon pulling Sasuke towards it even though he was enveloped by Susanoo, and that was basically just wind suction.

  95. well ten, remember also that shinra tensei can be endured, naruto did it with a few shadow clones, why not have the water take the impact for him as well as hold his place, or have susano hold to the ground, and as i said previously, if a shinra tensei is able to affect itachi and kisame it will affect the other paths to

    Also rereading some chapters, kisame is able to feel chakra through his samehada, which means he could possibly spot nagato if he gets one of his paths in the waterball

    Oh, and something else, itachi doesn’t need big tsukuyomi like genjutsus to make an opening, a fake itachi or some crows may be enough to get him through pein lines, some clones also, and for those saying konan could go all paper like and escape amateratsu, remember amateratsu ignites the target, it doesn’t travel to it, so he could keep track of where konan is with his sharingan and follow her effectively burning through her paper, remember how he chased sasuke with amateratsu? also i totally see a couple of paths getting burned in between an explosive distraction or a little genjutsu

  96. @Tenrai

    I think Team Itachi/Kisame is forgetting that Susano’o can be at least distorted. Remember that summon Danzou had who sucked up wind and the Susano’o kind of stumbled but thanks to katon it saves the day for Sasuke. In contrast to Pein vs Itachi. Pein can use Shinra Tensei to Itachi’s Susano’o I believe it can at least buy time on Itachi’s Susano’o while preparing for Gedo mazo or other jutsu that might be perfect in teaming up with shinra tensei. Remember Itachi cannot use katon as it will gonna back fire on him because of shinra tensei.

  97. @ Darks – That is pure speculation on your part that Itachi had even seen Pain in person or anything, Madara and Pain worked together, and if you see Zetsu was their little cam corder, so he has a means to identify Pain, also the first battle we see Pain with Jiraiya, while the first proper battle we saw with Itachi happened about the same time, SO as Pain lived longer he would of had opportunity to learn of Itachi through Madara and Zetsu…

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-407/page015.html

    They do seem to be awefully chatty 😛 but give me a single opportunity Itachi would have to find anything on Pain, while Itachi showed the world his jutsu’s etc, Pain was an unknown for most of his life 😛

  98. well yes, sasuke’s susano got distorted but it was incomplete, also the only thing i can see moving itachis susano like that is shinra tensei, which i already mentioned can be endured, also, it will need to be a big ass shinra tensei which could potentially hit other pein paths to

  99. @pein
    as i mentioned, itachi apparently knew nagato’s body and he knew cctv no jutsu, why not about everything else?

  100. @pein – What noom said lol. Though to add to it, Itachi kept his trump card a secret. I don’t ever remember Susano’o being used by Itachi until the last fight he had before he died.

  101. the big debates like this make the time between chapters seem shorter haha 🙂

    i’m a lil behind in posting but i’ve definitely been monitoring this debate so i’m gonna throw in my 2 cents on some stuff i’ve noticed being said about itachi..that’s my boy can’t let people bad mouth him without defense 😉

    i’ve seen several comments about susanoo making itachi so tired and making him go blind n blah blah blah..yeah obviously it does. BUT, this isn’t the itachi using susanoo we saw from the manga. he’s completely healthy in this debate. which means he has perfect eye sight and a body fully capable of handling the effects of his sharingan abilities. if sasuke can use susanoo, without really understanding it’s abilities, for 7 chapters then an expert of the jutsu can surely use it better for longer. sasuke was already tired too, oh man i forgot he even busted it out against kakashi.

  102. @Dish

    We’ve seen a perfectly healthy Itachi admit that using the MS is detrimental to him. We’ve also seen a perfectly healthy Itachi retreat from battle because he missused his MS techniques and he has admitted such.

    If that’s the case, how can we assume that it isn’t a large burden on his chakra resevres as well as his eyes?

    I’m not saying he can’t use his MS techs. All I am saying is he can’t afford to waste them. He’s not going to be stupid and spam amatarasu every time he feels like attacking, especially if it’s against a target he might not hit.

    @Noom

    If Pein’s shinra Tensei can push Itachi away, then whether it does damage isn’t really as important. The point is to keep Itachi at a distance, out of reach of his sealing sword. Also, Pein has never affected his other bodies when he uses Shinra Tensei, mostly because he can choose what targets it effects. I don’t see why he would accidently hit his own paths with it.

    If all Pein needs to do is create some distance between himself and Itachi or Kisame to use Chibaku Tensei, or to summon Gedo Mazo then it wouldn’t be that difficult for him.

    And, let’s still not forget Konan. She’s flying about, spamming paper bombs and no-one seems to care. <___<

  103. I know I stepped out of this debate but I just wanna say @dish if he is completely healthy then he wouldn’t have had the chance to perfect Susanoo would he? He would be blinding…

  104. i can agree it uses a lot of chakra n what not, i’m just saying it would take longer for it to become a big issue than people are suggesting. he retreated from battle (i assume you’re referring to when he faced off with j-man) because he wasn’t trying to get in a fight. he knew that wasn’t the best time to get into an all out fight with someone of jiraiya’s caliber n used his MS to escape an otherwise inescapable situation, that’s all, so i dont think he miss used it per say.

    also we all agree how intelligent the man is so i agree that i dont think he’d spam those techniques every time he feels like attacking anyway

  105. how can you possibly say he didn’t perfect it? we saw susanoo final form in itachi’s fight with sasuke/oro, a technique doen’t get more perfected than “fianl form”

  106. that would mean he was going blind. you need to make your mind up dude because how could he perfect it if his eyes were all healthy and he had never used it?

  107. hahaaaa so you’re saying since we’re using a “younger” itachi that he can’t use the techniques he could use when he was older? so by that logic to make this fight even the 6 paths of pain shouldn’t even exist yet and we’d be back to when nagato 1st really started using his so6p skills against hanzou and hadn’t perfected the use of those skills.
    sorry bud i think you’re missing the point of making itachi younger and healthier

  108. Perhaps I am missing the point. I just see the experience needed to perfect Susanoo going hand in hand with turning blind…

  109. i’m just sayin, what’s the point of having a real debate if all the characters are not at full strength? otherwise it immediately gives one side the advantage

  110. Hmm, just a thought ten

    If shinra tensei is indeed a directed attack then the yata mirror could probably guard against it as it’s not an external push but rather a focused power pushing

    Also it seems chakra on your feet helps to resist shinra tensei

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-429/page001.html

    Which could mean itachi may be able to guard against it with the combined power of the mirror susano and chakra on his feet, and kisame may barricade himself with his water just as naruto did with his clones

    Also, if shinra tensei is indeed focused, i cannot see him throwing 2 shinra tenseis, one at itachi and one at kisame, that’s why i said it should be a big one to push both which i dont think he can control in order to not hit his paths

    Also, now that pein is on 6 paths, i don’t see him being able to protect all his paths from amaterasu with deva path that will take at least 30 seconds to put them all out

  111. lol the 6 path of pain and konan vs itachi and kisame? the 6 paths alone are enough against both of them,people seems to have forgotten that madara kept saying that nagato was the greatest in all akatsuki and jiraiya made itachi and kisame run away and remind me who killed jiraiya without even using all of the 6 paths? yea SO SHUT UP ITACHI FANBOYS! EVEN AGAINST NAGATO ALONE ITACHI WOULD NOT STAND A CHANCE…and what makes you believe the rinnegan doesn’t protect from ocular genjutsu? the genjutsu used by the frogs was using sounds…and pain had huge knowledge in genjutsu the fact is that he putted genjutsu barriers on the amegakure shinobi in case they are captured what makes you think nagato will be affected by the tsukuyomi like any other shinobi? stop behing in love with itachi just because he’s awesome i think minato can beat itachi and is the only normal shinobi(no bloodline limit or bijuu)that i think he could takes on all the path of pain by himself and have a better result than jiraiya or even win

  112. “As for Kisame, let’s face the facts here, he doesn’t stand a chance against Pein. Shinra Tensei is a shock wave of physical force and therefore cannot be absorbed by the Samehada. Hell, all Pein needs is Deva Path to take out Kisame, he doesn’t even need to involve his other bodies. I can admit that Kisame was one of the strongest shinobi to ever live, but he just doesn’t have the right skills to fight Pein at all.”

    Uhm, we’re talking about Kisame here. The same man who survived a direct hit from a level 2 Lariat. If Deva wants to take him out he’ll have to use the super shinra tensei. And if he does, Itachi will retaliate with Susano’o. Game over.

    “I’ve already given examples of how she can literally fight at range without having to rely on eyesight. She can use hundreds, if not thousands of explosive tags to cover the battlefield and she can split apart into thousands of pieces of paper if her enemies use long range counter attacks, making her a nearly impossible target to hit.”

    If she could do that, she would have done that in her fight with Jiraiya or when attacking Konoha. Furthermore, I’ve never seen anyone create exploding tags out of thin air. It’s always exploding tags they carry with them or that have been set up beforehand as a trap.
    People are referencing her fight with Madara to much for this debate. Truth is, that fight was pre meditated. This won’t be. At least Darks didn’t mention anything about Konan knowing Itachi and Kisame we’re going to come for her and Pain.

    “As I mentioned before, Itachi would be stupid to waste a jutsu like Amatarasu to try and hit a target he can’t even identify, because all he will do is tire himself out and waste vital chakra. All Konan would need to do is use ranged attacks to force Itachi on the defensive, while Pein positions himself to use Chibaku Tensei or even Gedo Mazo. (Yes, let’s not forget that Deva path can still summon Gedo Mazo.)”

    He won’t. He’s got numerous possibilities of fending off or fighting Konan. Even without the Mangekyou Itachi will be too much for Konan. He’s get the best kunai skills in the manga to date, has shown expert genjutsu skills being able to cast genjutsu with nothing more than a finger, is very fast at using clones, jutsu’s and moves pretty fast as well.

    “All Konan and Pein have to do is stay out of range of his sword and wait for Itachi to wear himself out, which won’t take long with Susanoo. Or, all Pein has to do is use Chibaku Tensei and trap Itachi in an inescapable prison of earth while he is crushed by the forces of gravity. Susanoo may not let any kind of jutsu through, but gravity isn’t a force that can be protected against by any kind of armor.”

    Which is basically jumping right to Chibaku Tensei because you don’t know any other way’s for Pain to fight Itachi.

    “Let’s also not forget that Itachi himself said that all jutsu have weaknesses, without exception. He knows his own jutsu better than anyone so if he says that, then it must be true for Susanoo as well.”

    That works bothways, you make Pain out to be invincible I just use a quote from the manga itself.

    “A giant sphere of water means nothing to Shinra Tensei. Pein will just blow it away before it can even be remotely useful to Kisame. Kisame also can’t absorb Pein’s chakra if he can’t even get close to begin with, which he won’t if Shinra Tensei has anything to say about it.”

    LOL? For a man that likes to reference science a lot in debates you kinda dropped the ball here. Pain will just blow it away? You better rethink this my friend. Surely, you know how much force there is behind a large body of water. Just ask the Japanese or Thai’s, I’m sure they know how devastatingly powerful a large mass of water is.

    “because Pein’s abilities are perfectly designed to defeat someone like Kisame. Matching them up is basically suicidal.”

    If we ignore the fact that Kisame can heal from any injury, yes you’d be right. In this fight though, Deva using Shinra Tensei on Kisame is a good oppertunity for Itachi to roast Deva with Amaterasu. How much damage do you think 5 seconds of Amaterasu does to the body? I think he’ll be medium done. ^__^

    “It’s already been proven that Susanoo doesn’t protect Itachi from the gravitational effects of Chibaku Tensei.”

    And it’s been proven that Chibaku Tensei can be broken with powerfull attacks. So who’s to say Itachi with that Yagatama somethingamajimmy and Kisame’s most powerful long range attack won’t suffice in breaking Chibaku.
    And if they break Chibaku, Pain will be in serious trouble seeing as Chibaku uses a lot of chakra.
    Better yet, considering the fact that Chibaku Tensei is a massive chakra attack, what if Itachi’s attack opens the rubble around it just enough for Kisame to lash Samehada at it. Chibaku will fail and Samehada will absorb enough power for Kisame to go ape-shit on Pains ass.

    “And, let’s still not forget Konan. She’s flying about, spamming paper bombs and no-one seems to care.”

    Who? Isn’t she a character from Pokémon?

  113. uhhhhhhh danny boy, apparently you missed the last debate where the itachi and nagato fight was determined as a draw soooo…i dont think you’re keepin up with this debate too well either as pretty much everything you said has been countered in one way or another.

  114. Dan, we debate respectfully here. Feel free to put forward your views, but please refrain from name calling and telling others to shut up.

  115. Hmm, even if this may be a little speculation, lets remember itachi also has suiton jutsus which will work perfectly with kisame

  116. @Baron

    “Uhm, we’re talking about Kisame here. The same man who survived a direct hit from a level 2 Lariat. If Deva wants to take him out he’ll have to use the super shinra tensei. And if he does, Itachi will retaliate with Susano’o. Game over.”

    Survive a hit from a lariat? No, not quite. He was mortally wounded after that hit and the only reason he survived was because the Samehada healed him with the chakra already stolen from Bee. Pein wouldn’t let him get close enough to steal chakra in the first place, so a normal Shinra Tensei will do in this case.

    “If she could do that, she would have done that in her fight with Jiraiya or when attacking Konoha. Furthermore, I’ve never seen anyone create exploding tags out of thin air. It’s always exploding tags they carry with them or that have been set up beforehand as a trap.”

    When Konan was attacking Konoha, she was only using paper clones. Her real body was outside of Konoha the whole time. You also forget that her intention was to gather intel. It’s hard to gather intel from someone you blow up, which is why she resorted to a restrictive attack to keep her opponents immobilized. Also, Konan isn’t just your regular shinobi. She can create paper out of nothing and thus exploding notes out of nothing. She did it during her battle with Madara (I’m not refering to her trap, but rather her initial attack where she tried to blow herself up the moment Madara used his space time jutsu on her).

    “He won’t. He’s got numerous possibilities of fending off or fighting Konan. Even without the Mangekyou Itachi will be too much for Konan. He’s get the best kunai skills in the manga to date, has shown expert genjutsu skills being able to cast genjutsu with nothing more than a finger, is very fast at using clones, jutsu’s and moves pretty fast as well.”

    Yes, kunai skills will help great against paper. Please, I think he has a better chance with amatarasu, to be honest. Lol. <_<

    Genjutsu is irrelevant if Konan isn't looking at him, which I've already given examples of how she can fight blind. Clones and all the other stuff is pointless if Konan is out of range. She can fly, remember. Itachi can't. You seem to keep avoiding that simple fact and, in a battle debate, I am more than capable of using that as an advantage and I will exploit that fact. @__@

    "Which is basically jumping right to Chibaku Tensei because you don’t know any other way’s for Pain to fight Itachi."

    Which is why you always jump to the MS right? I guess that means Itachi has no other way to fight Pein then.

    I use Chibaku Tensei as a possible counter for Susanoo. I also used Gedo Mazo as a possible candidate for that as well. Your response suggests that you have no counter of your own, so I will take it my point was correct. 😛

    "That works bothways, you make Pain out to be invincible I just use a quote from the manga itself."

    I never made Pein out to be invincible. The only person who's trying to do that is you with Itachi. But if you want quotes from the manga, I have plenty, like the one about the Rinnegan being the strongest eye technique, or Pein being a god. Btw, that point about all jutsu having weaknesses is also a quote from the manga, from Itachi no less. 😛

    "LOL? For a man that likes to reference science a lot in debates you kinda dropped the ball here. Pain will just blow it away? You better rethink this my friend. Surely, you know how much force there is behind a large body of water. Just ask the Japanese or Thai’s, I’m sure they know how devastatingly powerful a large mass of water is."

    And I'm sure you are not forgetting what Pein can do with Shinra Tensei. If he can put a crater in a mass of compacted earth big enough to fit a few hidden villages inside, then I don't see a problem with him blowing away a sphere of water. I think you and I both know it's easier to displace water than compacted earth.

    "If we ignore the fact that Kisame can heal from any injury, yes you’d be right. In this fight though, Deva using Shinra Tensei on Kisame is a good oppertunity for Itachi to roast Deva with Amaterasu. How much damage do you think 5 seconds of Amaterasu does to the body? I think he’ll be medium done. ^__^"

    He can heal from any injury IF he has stolen his opponents chakra to use. I already explained above how that wouldn't be much of a factor. Also, don't forget about Pein's other bodies. There are a thousand ways to block Amatarasu and Pein only has to choose one. Like summoning a shield, sacrificing a summon to take the blow for him or even just pulling a big rock in the way using banshou tenin.

    "And it’s been proven that Chibaku Tensei can be broken with powerfull attacks. So who’s to say Itachi with that Yagatama somethingamajimmy and Kisame’s most powerful long range attack won’t suffice in breaking Chibaku. And if they break Chibaku, Pain will be in serious trouble seeing as Chibaku uses a lot of chakra.
    Better yet, considering the fact that Chibaku Tensei is a massive chakra attack, what if Itachi’s attack opens the rubble around it just enough for Kisame to lash Samehada at it. Chibaku will fail and Samehada will absorb enough power for Kisame to go ape-shit on Pains ass."

    Yes, you are correct, it can be broken. However, it took three simultaneous high level jutsu from 3 S-class ninja to break one Chibaku Tensei. Even Itachi admitted that all three of them would have to attack at once to stop it. That part about Itachi loosening the rock enough for Kisame to use the Samehada is just grasping at straws. It’s like me saying what if Konan hid explosive tags in the ground and Kisame happened to walk over them.

    But, here's a what if scenario that is quite plausible. What if Deva Path summoned Gedo Mazo into the battle? We know it can take a bijuu-level beating with no noticeable consequences so far and it has an attack that can litterally suck the soul right out of you. How would Kisame or Itachi defend against that? Even if they somehow managed to survive, I don't see how they could beat the six paths with all those powers, plus the statue and Konan.

  117. @Noom

    Actually, Itachi hasn’t been shown to use any water jutsu from what I have seen. I thought he had when Darks showed me the one page from an earlier Kisame vs Itachi debate, but I when I had a re-look, it was actually Kakashi using the water jutsu to defend from an attack, not Itachi.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-8/naruto/chapter-142.html

    Unless there is another reference that shows him using water jutsu, I think it’s prudent to assume he can.

  118. @Noom –
    as i mentioned, itachi apparently knew nagato’s body and he knew cctv no jutsu, why not about everything else?”

    Would you know where this is in the manga, I mean does it state that Itachi knew it was Nagato’s body or did the RAREST Pair of Eyes in the Naruto Universe Give it away? I mean if you say Itachi is as smart as you think he is then well wouldn’t deductive reasoning play a role here?

    @ Darks – hmmm so how di Itachi Train to use Susanoo couldn’t of been born with the tech known, which is funny,We give Itachi his abilities with no regard to the loss of eye sight that he suffers, SO When Itachi was healthy he pulled 2 Tsukyomi’s and 1 Black Flames before he was forced to retreat against Jiraiya the same Jiraiya that got basically beaten by 3 paths if not for Sage Mode Hax. Thus in his Prime we have seen this only…

    Pain’s Showing of Battle Tactics –
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-424-5/naruto/chapter-419.html

    Also The Animal Path can Summon from where ever it is, thus moving Pain quickly, as long as Animal and the Revival Path are Safe no one can defeat Pain!

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-425-16/naruto/chapter-420.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-425-17/naruto/chapter-420.html

    Shared Vision Even with Just 2 Paths enough to take on a Rikiri….

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-427-10/naruto/chapter-422.html

    Animal Path was still within the Village at this point

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-434-5/naruto/chapter-429.html
    but was quickly out of range at this one
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-434-7/naruto/chapter-429.html

    What will Itachi do against this?

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-434-10/naruto/chapter-429.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-434-11/naruto/chapter-429.html

    Read through the Battle with Naruto and tell me how Itachi is gonna win with lets say Tsukyomi and Black Flames are equal in Chakra resistance… Then we have a Itachi that can use 3 and that is basically it, this is him at his prime when he invaded Konoha, and Pain has all those summons he needs to deal with, its just shear numbers that will destroy Itachi, Even Susanoo all Pain has to do is keep the Revival and Animal Path away from the battle with Konan and 4 other paths plus maybe Gedo Moza there is no way that Itachi can fight long range and close range, Esp with Deva protection and the absorbing one. So yeah Itachi is super strong but he is not dynamic enough to battle Pain who is like a 1 man Army 😛

  119. @ten

    it is itachis jutsu hitting kakashi waterwall, if you watch closely you can see drill like things hitting kakashis wall of water, that is the jutsu kakashi talks about that itachi was so fast doing he could not even keep up

  120. @pein

    hmm that still doesnt explain the cctv no jutsu knowledge

    And yes, animal path is fast, but i dont see him or any technique being body flicker fast to dodge an amaterasu least so revival path, and what if a path getting hit by totsuka seals the path for pein to use, or any summons he makes, even gedo mazou may be sealed this way, i dont think its convinient for anyone to get near itachi, least so with a mirror that repels any attack

    Kisame could take on the summons alone, they would just feed him chakra, i mean, he fights tailed beasts

    And as i said before, if they find a way to stan shinra tensei, pein gets in trouble, also if the paths get hit by amaterasu, he is in trouble, if the waterball gets them, hes in trouble

    ill get to this later cuz i got school for the next 12 + hours 😄

    omg its tuesday already, debating really makes the wait for the manga seem shorter

  121. @Noom

    That jutsu you speak of is Itachi throwing Shuriken. <_<

  122. sorry about being disrespectfull,i didn’t meant and i was a bit carried away…anyway about this debate i think konan is not as weak as people think,even if she dont prepare a lake of paper she is still quite dangerous see at the konoha invasion she overpowered quite a bunch of shinobis by herself without even looking tired afterwards and the fact fire somehow is not effective on her papers as normally,and water instead of making the papers moist and damp it just washed out the oil away but i agree that against itachi or kisame she might be overpowered but again the 6 path of pain are enough against both itachi and kisame and im sure that with konan they’ve got an impressive teamwork(they are teammates since childhood so im sure they are extremely co ordinated) and it don’t need to explain myself about the 6 paths smashing itachi and kisame the manga talk for itself susanoo drains way too much chakra to be effective against 6 powerfull bodies and kisame can drain chakras with samehada but i dont think samehada can absorb jutsu 100% while one of the pains absorb any jutsu like it was nothing,and nagato got way more stamina than itachi so the paths gonna last way longer than itachi’s chakra and about kisame it doesn’t matter how much chakra it gots…anyway against kisame i would go like that konan+hungry ghost path+asura path and against itachi:deva path,human path,naraka path stay behind as much as possible and animal path can attack both kisame and itachi with his summons.
    and about the nagato vs itachi debate i agreed with the outcome being a draw.

    now i’ve got an interesting question: naruto after defeating pain but before taking kyubii chakra(enter the battle in normal mode but can use sage mode) against kisame with samehada

    what do you think will happen to kisame’s samehada if it absorb senjutsu chakra? do you think it will turn to a stone frog too?

    and another question many times when naruto was in kyubii mode some chakra absorbing shinobi where trying to absorb his chakra but failed or at being injured because the kyubi chakra was too foul,do you think samehada will reject it too if it absorb a large quantity?

  123. I will reiterate Konan’s power because I like her, not because it will effect the debate that I ‘stepped out of’ >_>

    To make ‘just’ 1 billion tags, even if she made one a second, none stop, would take 31 years! yes 1 billion seconds is 31 years. But she didn’t make 1 billion she made 600 billion…
    How long is it safe to assume she had to prepare for madara? 1 year? Thats at least 18600 tags she can make a second. 1 Month? Thats at least 223200. 1 week? Thats just short of 1 million tags a second. And as Ten said, she can make them out of nothing. Also she can make clones with them in.

  124. Can’t one of Nagato’s paths’ also absorb chakra? Maybe that path can team up with Konan while they take down Kisame. She can have her paper jutsu restrict Kisame and have that path suck out all the chakra in the sword. I’d take a path of the rinnegan over a 7 swordsmen sword anytime. And to take Itahci out of the equation, Nagatos “Force Push/Pull” Itachi out of the area of Kisame vs Konan, The absorbing chakra path, and the soul sucking path. And regroup after that battle is over. Well, I have nothing for the Itach vs Nagato fight because that’s a draw >_> but since Konan would be able to join the fight soon, I’d take the paths and konan vs Itachi. Out manned but not Gunned!!!

  125. @ Noom –

    “hmm that still doesnt explain the cctv no jutsu knowledge”

    We not debating Itachi’s knowledge what I am saying is Pain was Very Secretive in his time as “god” but its obvious if Itachi see’s the Rinnegan he will recognize it as Pain… So my point being a lot of this “Battle” where apparently Itachi knew everything? It was basically Naruto telling everyone what happened before and describing the power not Itachi…

    “And yes, animal path is fast, ….”

    Speed before was a problem for Ahsan, I think he stated it a few times actually, I was pointing out its pointless to continue attacking since all Pain will do is resummon all his bodies to where the revival path is, like his fight with Jiraiya…

    Now that sword you speak of, places the person struck by in into an eternal Genjutsu of Sake, which is powerful but with its limited range it would be ineffective Pain would be able to keep a distance in the battle and still have enough force to push aside Itachi, then Itachi will have activated a very powerful Susanoo meaning his mobility is less and he would be weaker to distance attacks and his chakra would be low, so while it would be effective for lets say 1 Summon or even just 1 Path there is still 5 more to deal with and if you look at Pain’s formation the revival Path would likely not be close by and neither will Deva so in effect your sword will give you one fewer path… Kisame dealing with the summons, the Dog and the Bird would be difficult to capture this way, though he can absorb their chakra, the bird has distance on Kisame and I think Bombs Pain will be more then enough to keep the battle interesting plus Konan’s Millions of Tags Scattered, if Kisame goes big ball no jutsu the other paths will be able to fight him. Since they dead they don’t breath >_>

    “Kisame could take on the summons alone, they would just feed him chakra, i mean, he fights tailed beasts”

    He does and he has a large supply of chakra but he actually fights Jinchuriki not beasts and if you see in the Manga Itachi states he was lucky to beat the 4 tails I think cause of type advantage, so which ever is strong against Water one of Pains bodies will attack.

    “And as i said before, if they find a way to stan shinra tensei, pein gets in trouble, also if the paths get hit by amaterasu, he is in trouble, if the waterball gets them, hes in trouble”

    Well Amaterasu is powerful and all but not the end of the world since as long as Revival Path is alive he will rebuild them, and if Itachi waste 3 Amaterasu on 3 Paths of Pain he will be low already on Chakra, and he will be in more trouble, Water Ball wont really affect the Paths, why would it, they dead bodies, Kisame could feel the chakra in the ball but only as far as his outer limit of the wall, plus like I said before the Waterball hurts the Team more then helps same could be said for Amaterasu….

    IF they can withstand a Technique that destroyed all of Konoha then yes he may be in trouble but this is a big if, also Pain was able to withstand a short battle with Sage Mode Naruto who had all the Cheat Codes to win, i.e a lot of information given to him on the paths and their abilities, plus he had started a war with an entire Village where only 1 path was damaged and that was by one of the strongest fighters in Konoha and yet it still didn’t help them, so yeah, that IF is not as bad as it would seems 😛

  126. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Water_Release:_Water_Fang_Bullet

  127. noom is definitely right about itachi being able to use water style jutsu. it’s in the manga, and the anime. you do have to look pretty closely to notice it in the manga but kakashi does actually mention itachi using the shuriken as a distraction to use the water attack. here’s a different translation.

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-142/10/

  128. hmm pein

    what if the path hit by amaterasu is revival? that will be a Lot of trouble for pein

    also, the waterball will hinder their mobility and vision, even bee said he couldn’t see in that water

    And, by recalling the recent fight between itachi and pein, pein doesn’t seem to know about totsuka at all, also, both time it has been used it was really fast, i already posted the links somewhere above, and, because of susano size and the sword’s length it seems to have quite some range, it’s also summoned very quickly, as itachi did it just as kirin stroke, that with the mirror is probably the strongest combo in the series

    also, i really dont think kishi made the math on that gazillion tags, or she would be nearly invincible, why didnt she use that many paper tags or bombs before?

    And, can someone tell me where it says people can’t move with susano? i mean, itachi walked with it towards sasuke, he moved in the batlle against pein, so why not now? as long as he get’s close enough he could seal some paths and take the upper hand

    Kismae fought the 4 tails which i dont think went down without going into full beast mode, and also fought bee fairly even, he even won, so i dont see how someone this powerfull could loose to some summons, especially when every one of them will give him more chakra

    Now, when i said stand shinra tensei i meant the normal form, not the konoha destructing force, i still belive itachi could survive with susano, kisame may have more trouble but he could make it going underground o healing himself, and if they survive that big one, nagato would have wasted so much chakra his paths will be weak and deva will be out for a while, so i dont see pein going all mega shinra tensei on them

  129. @ Noom – “what if the path hit by amaterasu is revival? that will be a Lot of trouble for pein”

    If is not how we win debates 😛 plus if you look at any battle line up with Pain… He keeps the Revival Path away from conflict, usually as we saw against Jiraiya Pain wont send out all his paths at once he first tests them with the less important ones.

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-431/

    Bottom of the page, even though Deva was useless in this battle, he was still gaurding Revival Path.

    “also, the waterball will hinder their mobility and vision, even bee said he couldn’t see in that water”

    Hmmm and what is this Gaint Bubble made of… that is Right Chakra, thus once stuck in the bubble Pain just gotta absorb plus we seen that force can displace the bubble, u also don’t show me how exactly Itachi will battle here, the only reason why 8 Tails didn’t work was because Bee wanted to keep it low key, but if Animal Summons and Deva Almighty Pushes the water plus the water becoming normal water from the absorbtion of Chakra its in effect the most ineffective jutsu the 2 have…

    “And, by recalling the recent fight between itachi and pein, pein doesn’t seem to know about totsuka at all, also, both time it has been used it was really fast, i already posted the links somewhere above, and, because of susano size and the sword’s length it seems to have quite some range, it’s also summoned very quickly, as itachi did it just as kirin stroke, that with the mirror is probably the strongest combo in the series”

    Yeah but like I said, the sword would eliminate one Path or one Summon but from there Pain will know to keep distance… So yeah its good but without Nagato near enough there is no One Hit Ko with it, its like Sasori loosing his Kazekage Puppet doesn’t mean he is beaten though…

    “also, i really dont think kishi made the math on that gazillion tags, or she would be nearly invincible, why didnt she use that many paper tags or bombs before?”

    Lol that is not a valid argument thats like saying, “Females can’t be powerful in this manga, Kishi must not know maths 😛 ” I think Susanoo is actually too over powered so I think Kishi should make it weaker? She never needed to, in the invasion she was to investigate, not destroy… Same with Jiraiya she just gave Nagato time to prepare. She is the longest last original member of Akatsuki, trained with Yahiko and Nagato to form the Organization and be the 2nd in charge not sure why she can’t be Over Power like the others 😛

    “And, can someone tell me where it says people can’t move with susano? i mean, itachi walked with it towards sasuke, he moved in the batlle against pein, so why not now? as long as he get’s close enough he could seal some paths and take the upper hand”

    You can move but it does take a huge physical strain, What I mean was if Itachi wanted to do more then just gingerly walk to a stunned kid with no chakra left then of course it would be more difficult with Susanoo activated…

    “Kismae fought the 4 tails which i dont think went down without going into full beast mode, and also fought bee fairly even, he even won, so i dont see how someone this powerfull could loose to some summons, especially when every one of them will give him more chakra”

    Speculation here, unfortunately Kisame battle with the 4 Tails is an unknown but Itachi did state if not for the type advantage Kisame would of had trouble, also the only person able to go full beast mode with control is Bee the others just become a rampaging made beast… With evenly fighting bee, well that is speculative since Bee wouldn’t go full beast mode which would of won him the match, the size of the 8 Tails would of been Kisame’s downfall in the battle this is what I am saying plus summons like the bird and even Konan’s Flight would mean his bubble will be out of range 😛

    “Now, when i said stand shinra tensei i meant the normal form, not the konoha destructing force, i still belive itachi could survive with susano, kisame may have more trouble but he could make it going underground o healing himself, and if they survive that big one, nagato would have wasted so much chakra his paths will be weak and deva will be out for a while, so i dont see pein going all mega shinra tensei on them”

    Well we saw in the battle of Konoha, the paths took out a lot of shinobi, did the mega thingy and battled a Sage Mode Naruto and still had enough energy to use the moon making jutsu, so Shinra Tensei will be effective, “hiding underground to a technique that made Konoha a crater is just not an option and I don’t recall Kisame being able to do that though I am not 100% sure so will take it as he can… Sasuke Susanoo was hurt by the suction thing creating a vacuum, wonder what will happen if Pain lets loose a giant vacuum within/around Itachi’s Susanoo ?

  130. http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-444/07/

    Also if Kisame somehow dies and Itachi gets close to Nagato, this will never actually happen but if he gets this far, would take one hit to be controled by Nagato 😉 Also Nagato keeps Corpses to replace his paths bt unfortunately this is just speculation on where they battle as to how quickly he could replace one that way…

    plus we got this

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-447/08/

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-447/10/

    This is like that precious sword but super extendable and can suck up a lot of souls at once too 😛
    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-447/11/

  131. Konan

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-447/11/

    That is quite a lot of paper 😛

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-509/14/

    This seems like a point to point out how difficult it is to dodge her papers

    http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-509/14/

    She is also an amazing strategist able to determine Tobi’s Weakness too…

  132. @Dan

    No problem, we all get carried away sometimes. @__@

    @Noom

    “And, by recalling the recent fight between itachi and pein, pein doesn’t seem to know about totsuka at all, also, both time it has been used it was really fast, i already posted the links somewhere above, and, because of susano size and the sword’s length it seems to have quite some range, it’s also summoned very quickly, as itachi did it just as kirin stroke, that with the mirror is probably the strongest combo in the series”

    If we’re going by what each combatant knows about one another, then really, evidence shows that in their latest battle, Itachi didn’t know much about Nagato either. It’s quite possible he figured out about the shared vision of Nagato’s thanks to Bee’s failed attempt at attacking Nagato from behind. It was a pretty blatant clue, after all. But Itachi still didn’t know about Chibaku Tensei, so it stands to reason he didn’t know much about Pein at all before then. There’s no evidence to suggest that he did.

    Also, so far as I have seen, the sword of Totsuka does not materialize instantly when Itachi uses Susanoo. In fact, we have seen that Susanoo goes through different stages as it reaches its final armored form and Itachi has never used its final form straight from the offset. So no, it isn’t that instant and definitely not more instant than a shinra tensei, for example.

    “also, i really dont think kishi made the math on that gazillion tags, or she would be nearly invincible, why didnt she use that many paper tags or bombs before?”

    This is a manga where people can summon flames from hell, manipulate space and time, and where they can create small moons or destroy entire villages in the blink of an eye. And you’re questioning Konan’s ability to make paper? O_o

    If we start disputing the facts of this manga, then I might as well say Itachi can’t move as fast as people claim because the human body can’t possibly move at those speeds, therefor Kishi didn’t do his biology on that one. <_<

    Sorry Noom, but that just doesn't cut it as far as I am concerned. The fact is that Konan did summon 100 billion explosive tags (numerically 100 000 000 000). That's a lot of zeroes. If you calculate it, and say that she summoned those tags over the course of a month (which is being very generous) then that means she can create 38 000 explosive tags per second (100 billion divided by 2 629 743.83, which is the average amount of seconds in a month).

    Wow, that's a lot. <_<

    So, that means in a battle, she can summon many thousands of pieces of paper or explosive tags in a matter of seconds. I think that means she is quite capable of turning the battlefield into the next apocalypse. Whether you like it or not, it's pretty much proven as true. Kisame's bubble of H2O is not going to save him from an onslaught like that. Hell, the only reason Madara survived is because of Hax Izanagi, and that in itself says a lot.

    "Kismae fought the 4 tails which i dont think went down without going into full beast mode, and also fought bee fairly even, he even won, so i dont see how someone this powerfull could loose to some summons, especially when every one of them will give him more chakra"

    I don't think Kisame would lose to summons, so I agree there, but I do think the summons would be a good distraction. On the other hand, I most certainly do think he would lose to Pein or even Konan, given her ability with paperwork that would make an insurance company feel ashamed.

    "Now, when i said stand shinra tensei i meant the normal form, not the konoha destructing force, i still belive itachi could survive with susano, kisame may have more trouble but he could make it going underground o healing himself, and if they survive that big one, nagato would have wasted so much chakra his paths will be weak and deva will be out for a while, so i dont see pein going all mega shinra tensei on them"

    A normal Shinra Tensei is still a force to be reckoned with and we've all seen the damage it can do. Besides, it's not the only weapon at Pein's disposal. Yes, the sword of Totsuka can seal a person's soul away, but so can Gedo Mazo and Human Path. The former can do so at an even greater range as well so as far as I am concerned, there's a match for Susanoo right there.

    Yes Kisame can absorb chakra, but so can Preta Path. Pein has an equal to every one of Itachi's and Kisame's best and if we count Konan in the mix with her 38 000 tags a second, I think Itachi and Kisame will have a hard time even moving on the battlefield, much less anything else.

  133. P.S. I would just like to say that Konan was one of my favorite characters n the manga and I am really sad that she died. She was so awesome and cool and awesome.

    DAMN YOU KISHI!!! WHY DID YOU HAVE TO KILL HER?!?!?! T__T

  134. @Tenrai

    I agree. She was one of my favorite characters too. I remember that when the chapter in which she supposedly died came out, I wrote a very long post explaining why she couldn’t be dead… but then she had a flashback and there was that “I’m home” page that cemented her fate. http://www.mangareader.net/93-57640-15/naruto/chapter-511.html T_T

    I really hope Kabuto revives her and shows us the true extent of her power. She was the only badass female in the manga, not counting the Mizukage.

  135. “Survive a hit from a lariat? No, not quite. He was mortally wounded after that hit and the only reason he survived was because the Samehada healed him with the chakra already stolen from Bee.”

    Where does it say he can only heal after stealing chakra…. He only said the stronger his opponent is the stronger he’ll get. There’s absolutely no proof Kisame can’t heal on his own. Just another one of your assumptions.

    “When Konan was attacking Konoha, she was only using paper clones. Her real body was outside of Konoha the whole time. You also forget that her intention was to gather intel. It’s hard to gather intel from someone you blow up, which is why she resorted to a restrictive attack to keep her opponents immobilized. Also, Konan isn’t just your regular shinobi. She can create paper out of nothing and thus exploding notes out of nothing. She did it during her battle with Madara (I’m not refering to her trap, but rather her initial attack where she tried to blow herself up the moment Madara used his space time jutsu on her).”

    That’s her forte, she excels in stealth. As for the exploding tags out of nothing, give me proof that she creates them with her paper jutsu. You can’t. The only time we saw her use exploding tags was against madara where she herself admitted she prepared the exploding tags beforehand. No asspull no jutsu’s plz.

    “Genjutsu is irrelevant if Konan isn’t looking at him, which I’ve already given examples of how she can fight blind. Clones and all the other stuff is pointless if Konan is out of range. She can fly, remember. Itachi can’t. You seem to keep avoiding that simple fact and, in a battle debate, I am more than capable of using that as an advantage and I will exploit that fact.”

    Yes she can fly and stay out of Itachi’s range. Good for her. And for Itachi seeing as that will enable him to direct all of his attention to Pain. I still haven’t read one decent attack from Konan that would put either Itachi or Kisame in danger. Let her spam her paper from a distance. She’ll drop to her death eventually after exhausting herself.

    “Which is why you always jump to the MS right? I guess that means Itachi has no other way to fight Pein then. ”

    Did I? If you didn’t skip all my previous comments you might have read how I used Itachi’s other skills in fighting Pain. And what I was refering to is the old “well then Pain will just use Chibaku Tensei or Gedo Mazo and be done with it” comment. If you had paid attention you’d have noticed I didn’t even had to use Susano’o’s sword or shield yet in my comments. But you immediately jump to Pains trump card. Now correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t this debate supposed to be about debating skills? Not who can jump to trump cards fastest?

    “I use Chibaku Tensei as a possible counter for Susanoo. I also used Gedo Mazo as a possible candidate for that as well. Your response suggests that you have no counter of your own, so I will take it my point was correct.”

    I’ve given my answer to Chibaku Tensei. Your response on that is just another assumption. As for Gedo Mazo. We’ve never seen Deva summon Gedo Mazo, only the statue. So, again, another assumption on your part. But like I said, also straight to trump card.

    “He can heal from any injury IF he has stolen his opponents chakra to use.”

    Because Kisame has absolutely no chakra of his own. And is in no way comparable to a jinchuuriki in terms of power. We’ve seen Sasuke being healed from the same injury by whatshisface who, in terms of power doesn’t even come close to Kisame but Kisame can’t heal without first stealing chakra. >__>

    “Yes, you are correct, it can be broken. However, it took three simultaneous high level jutsu from 3 S-class ninja to break one Chibaku Tensei. Even Itachi admitted that all three of them would have to attack at once to stop it. That part about Itachi loosening the rock enough for Kisame to use the Samehada is just grasping at straws. It’s like me saying what if Konan hid explosive tags in the ground and Kisame happened to walk over them.”

    Where did Itachi say one absolutely needs 3 very powerful jutsu’s to break Chibaku Tensei. How would Itachi have any idea that their 3 jutsu’s would be enough? He didn’t. They just had to do it. It could have been major overkill or it could have been completely futile. So again, just another assumption on your part as to what is needed to counter Chewbacca Tensei.

    “But, here’s a what if scenario that is quite plausible. What if Deva Path summoned Gedo Mazo into the battle? We know it can take a bijuu-level beating with no noticeable consequences so far and it has an attack that can litterally suck the soul right out of you. How would Kisame or Itachi defend against that? Even if they somehow managed to survive, I don’t see how they could beat the six paths with all those powers, plus the statue and Konan.”

    And finally I have to bring forth the Tortuga sword. The sword that can seal anyone AND anything it pierces. We’ve also seen Susano’o can strike pretty fast with it so who’s to say Susano’o can’t seal Gedo Mazo before it fires it’s soul snatching dragon tongue.

  136. Yep, konan was a pretty awesome character, a female akat paper logia type powers, can any woman in this manga go that awesome?

    Oh and yes, the thing about deva summoning gedo is also speculation, remember the time nagato summoned it he got all old like im dying lol thing with some rods on his back, i don’t see him taking the same hit again

    unless he is the healthy nagato fighting with 6 paths 0.0… dun dun dun

  137. *noom reading through the posts again before class*
    *chewbaca tensei*
    *lol*
    ahhahahahahahahahah i cant stop laughing my stomach hurts because im laughing so hard

    good one Baron

    As for the debate, I’m out as i’ll have tons of hw today so i dont think i’m posting, at least with some time to debate, before the next chapter comes out, and then we will be all over does 20-+ pages

    As i said in the beginning both sides are incredible forces, and i still believe plot no jutsu will be the thing to decide this battle, i just had to fight for my guy itachi back there cuz he was being left alone

  138. True about Muu … while the fact that he dodged an attack he couldn’t see and got hit by it moments later while it was in front of him is pretty confusing, it’s not impossible to try to explain.

    Maybe – he was able to dodge the first attack Naruto threw at him from behind because, since he’s a sensor-type, he could see it coming. The second one, the one he could see, hit him because while he could see it coming, he didn’t expect it to gain speed all of a sudden by the boost from the chakra arms, and it was too fast for him to react (the fact that he was forming his own technique probably contributed to the fact that he couldn’t dodge it).

    You also said it didn’t make sense if he missed but he’s supposed to be as fast as MInato. Well, maybe that ‘yellow flash’ speed he displayed against the Raikage a couple chapters back isn’t a constant thing. Maybe he has to really focus and concentrate to achieve that speed. I mean, think about it, wouldn’t it be kinda dumb if Naruto was constantly moving at that crazy speed the whole time he was in Chakra Mode ?

  139. nagashi i think you’re totally right in there, naruto simply didn’t hit him at full speed and got dodged, i mean, muu may be pretty fast also, he was a kage right?

    and the second rasengan, the one that hit him i dont think it was because he didn’t wanted to dodge but because he thought he could release his own technique first

  140. @Baron

    “Where does it say he can only heal after stealing chakra…. He only said the stronger his opponent is the stronger he’ll get. There’s absolutely no proof Kisame can’t heal on his own. Just another one of your assumptions.”

    What is this assumption you speak of?

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-39730-14/naruto/chapter-471.html

    Note “You steal your opponent’s chakra and convert them to your own stamina.”

    On the previous page, you also see he only starts healing when the Samehada touches him. Now please Baron, stop accusing me of making assumptions when I back up all of my points with manga references or logic as far as I can. It’s quite uncalled for.

    “That’s her forte, she excels in stealth. As for the exploding tags out of nothing, give me proof that she creates them with her paper jutsu. You can’t. The only time we saw her use exploding tags was against madara where she herself admitted she prepared the exploding tags beforehand. No asspull no jutsu’s plz.”

    Konan Excels in stealth? That’s her forte? I suppose you have a manga reference where it specifically points this out? If you can’t, then that is as much of an assumption as anything you’ve tried to accuse me of.

    And who needs asspull when Konan can thousands of explosive tags a second, after calculating the rate of creation over a month to reach 200 billion tags. Hell, even if I made it over a year, it would still be a few thousand tags a second. Whether we saw it once or a hundred times, Konan still used explosive tags, that is a fact that you cannot change. Do yourself a favor and try to factor that into the debate and debate against it properly, rather than trying to pretend it isn’t a factor at all. Don’t just try to find the easy way out by trying to disprove a combatants abilities when they are quite blatantly clear.

    “Yes she can fly and stay out of Itachi’s range. Good for her. And for Itachi seeing as that will enable him to direct all of his attention to Pain. I still haven’t read one decent attack from Konan that would put either Itachi or Kisame in danger. Let her spam her paper from a distance. She’ll drop to her death eventually after exhausting herself.”

    As I mentioned before, she could create thousands of exploding tags per second. That’s without factoring breaks into the equation. If we factor breaks in, then the rate would be even higher. I think that gives her a perfectly good basis for attack, don’t you think?

    “I’ve given my answer to Chibaku Tensei. Your response on that is just another assumption. As for Gedo Mazo. We’ve never seen Deva summon Gedo Mazo, only the statue. So, again, another assumption on your part. But like I said, also straight to trump card.”

    Gedo Mazo IS the statue. The words “Gedo Mazo” translate to “Demonic statue of the other path” or “Heretical demon statue”, or whatever translation you choose to follow. So, once again, your accusations of me making assumptions are baseless. And please, don’t start the “Straight to Trump Card” nonsense for someone who started a debate out like this:

    “Tsukuyomi by Itachi and BOOM, Team Itachi wins again!!…”

    In any case, I’m sorry if my trump card is too much for you to counter with a decent retort as opposed to simplistic accusations with no grounds.

    “Because Kisame has absolutely no chakra of his own. And is in no way comparable to a jinchuuriki in terms of power. We’ve seen Sasuke being healed from the same injury by whatshisface who, in terms of power doesn’t even come close to Kisame but Kisame can’t heal without first stealing chakra. >__>”

    I didn’t see him heal himself from the injuries Gai inflicted. Perhaps you would like to explain how someone who is invincible got taken out with one blow and failed to heal himself afterwards.

    “I’ve given my answer to Chibaku Tensei. Your response on that is just another assumption. As for Gedo Mazo. We’ve never seen Deva summon Gedo Mazo, only the statue. So, again, another assumption on your part. But like I said, also straight to trump card.”

    So your assumption that Itachi and Kisame would be enough to stop Chibaku Tensei on their own based on nothing more than your opinion, is fine. But when I give evidence to support my reasons why I believe it isn’t enough, my comments are still counted as assumptions? That doesn’t make sense to me. It just sounds like you’re just getting frustrated Baron. I’ve actually used quite a few of Pein’s abilities in my comments as well, and Konan’s. Perhaps you forgot those all.

    “Where did Itachi say one absolutely needs 3 very powerful jutsu’s to break Chibaku Tensei. How would Itachi have any idea that their 3 jutsu’s would be enough? He didn’t. They just had to do it. It could have been major overkill or it could have been completely futile. So again, just another assumption on your part as to what is needed to counter Chewbacca Tensei.”

    It’s just as much of an assumption on your part that Kisame and Itachi would be enough on their own, if you want to play that card. Once again, you’re accusing me of something that you yourself take part in. It really is quite senseless.

    “And finally I have to bring forth the Tortuga sword. The sword that can seal anyone AND anything it pierces. We’ve also seen Susano’o can strike pretty fast with it so who’s to say Susano’o can’t seal Gedo Mazo before it fires it’s soul snatching dragon tongue.”

    Who’s to say it can? Are you making assumptions now? <_<

    Lol. Baron I really think you are a good debater, but it annoys me when you start to make baseless accusations just to get an edge in a debate.

    When Darks and I debated on the side of Orochimaru against Pein, we were pretty much alone against everyone else on the blog. Hell, I don't think either of us expected to have any hope of winning that debate and there were quite a few nasty comments from some some of our opposition who believed we were stupid for supporting the "clear loser". But we did it for the challenge, even knowing what we were up against. We did it despite the harsh comments and the slim chance of success.

    That's what debating is about at the end of the day. The fun of the challenge, not just winning. I know I also get serious sometimes, but I always try my best to remember not to undermine others.

    In any case, I think that's it for me in this debate. It's pointless continuing a debate that has just become frustrating for me. We can all see who won when the winner is announced in the next breakdown and then people can gloat as they please.

  141. @Nagashikage

    I made a comment much earlier about why Naruto wouldn’t have been at his full speed.

    Something about falling and terminal velocity. Remember, while Naruto is falling, he can’t really control his speed, so he is limited to the speed at which a human being would naturally fall through the air.

    Also, he probably didn’t expect Muu to be a sensor, so he may not have felt a need to attack fast, as opposed to just using a sneak attack to hit his enemy before they were aware of his presense. Once Naruto realised the mistake, he used a different strategy for his follow-up attack to compensate.

  142. “Note “You steal your opponent’s chakra and convert them to your own stamina.”

    On the previous page, you also see he only starts healing when the Samehada touches him. Now please Baron, stop accusing me of making assumptions when I back up all of my points with manga references or logic as far as I can. It’s quite uncalled for.”

    Right. He can heal with Samehada, that was my point. I know it’s also an assumption on my part but it’s one that isn’t as far stretched as the assumption that Kisame can’t heal without stealing chakra first seeing as Kisame and Samehada share and have a massive amount of chakra.

    “And who needs asspull when Konan can thousands of explosive tags a second, after calculating the rate of creation over a month to reach 200 billion tags. Hell, even if I made it over a year, it would still be a few thousand tags a second. Whether we saw it once or a hundred times, Konan still used explosive tags, that is a fact that you cannot change. Do yourself a favor and try to factor that into the debate and debate against it properly, rather than trying to pretend it isn’t a factor at all. Don’t just try to find the easy way out by trying to disprove a combatants abilities when they are quite blatantly clear.”

    Again, where in the manga does it mention Konan can create exploding tags with her jutsu. The only exploding tags she used are tags she prepared beforehand.

    “As I mentioned before, she could create thousands of exploding tags per second. ”

    No she can’t. Besides, you know as well as I do there’s no possible way she prepared 600 billion tags in time for her fight with Madara. That’s as ridiculous as a 10 mile long sword. >__>

    “Gedo Mazo IS the statue. The words “Gedo Mazo” translate to “Demonic statue of the other path” or “Heretical demon statue”, or whatever translation you choose to follow. So, once again, your accusations of me making assumptions are baseless. And please, don’t start the “Straight to Trump Card” nonsense for someone who started a debate out like this:

    “Tsukuyomi by Itachi and BOOM, Team Itachi wins again!!…””

    Don’t get condescending. You know what I meant. There’s a difference in the way they use the statue. The only time we’ve seen Nagato use Gedo Mazo as the ninja slaying monster, he shortened his life and became an invalid. Pain has never used Gedo Mazo in that sense.

    And the Tsukuyomi = Itachi wins was a joke. You seriously didn’t get that?! As I said in a later comment I know full well Itachi can’t simply Tsukuyomi his way out of a fight with the 6 Paths of Pain.

    “So your assumption that Itachi and Kisame would be enough to stop Chibaku Tensei on their own based on nothing more than your opinion, is fine. But when I give evidence to support my reasons why I believe it isn’t enough, my comments are still counted as assumptions? That doesn’t make sense to me. It just sounds like you’re just getting frustrated Baron. I’ve actually used quite a few of Pein’s abilities in my comments as well, and Konan’s. Perhaps you forgot those all.”

    Where did I say Itachi and Kisame alone will break Chibaku Tensei. I just said it’s plausible because Itachi wouldn’t know whether his, Naruto’s and Bee’s attack would be overkill or insufficient.
    And btw, from reading your apparent hostility I say it is you who’s getting frustrated.

    “Who’s to say it can? Are you making assumptions now?”

    Am I? Read it again; “We’ve also seen Susano’o can strike pretty fast with it so !!!who’s to say!!! Susano’o can’t seal Gedo Mazo before it fires it’s soul snatching dragon tongue.

    Where did I say it can. I’m just debating the fact that we don’t know.
    Who’s to say any of what we discussed will work. We can’t be sure until we actually see them go head to head in the manga, which won’t happen.

    “That’s what debating is about at the end of the day. The fun of the challenge, not just winning. I know I also get serious sometimes, but I always try my best to remember not to undermine others.”

    LOL. You debate to win. It’s Pein-fully obvious. Even during the Oro vs Pain debate you kept on coming back with new stuff trying to find new angles to approach the debate. At the end it was basically Oro with 600 Billion exploding ta… uhh,… Edo Tensei summons vs Pain.
    And the only reason you ‘won’ was because one person wavered and said he was sure Pain would win at first but at the end of the debate he wasn’t so sure anymore. Now let’s be real, the chance of that happening was a million times greater than someone thinking Oro was gonna win until the end of the debate, seeing as everybody knew Pain would win.
    But I’m not here to dig up old graves.

    The fact is, in this debate Itachi’s and Kisame’s odds are slim at best but here we are with a lot more votes for Itachi and Kisame and a lot of people debating on Itachi’s behalf after only a few we’re on team Itachi in the beginning. Now I know there are probably a lot of fanvotes in their for Itachi (and Kisame) but take those away and the outcome would probably be about even (another assumption, I know).
    So it’s like the previous debate which ended in a draw and for me that’s as good as a victory.

    So, as far as I’m concerned all is well. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. If there’s ever a Tenten vs debate I’ll side with you on defending Tenten…

    No, sorry. I can’t make a promise like that. I’ll only stoop as low as Sakura or Ino. I won’t go lower than that. ^__^

    *Glares at Darks*

    Don’t you dare create a Itachi/Kakashi vs Sakura/Ino debate.

    *Shakes fist*

  143. @all: How about a Tonton vs Tenten fight? Sounds like it would be a fair battle.

  144. Red, not only would I do a debate like that for the epic lulz, I’ll even dedicate it to you. 😄

  145. LMAO arpotu!! 😄 😄

  146. Tonton would smash her with bacon ass of doom no jutsu. Game over Tenten… 😀

  147. dont know the validate of spoilers. Would you guys get mad if I post some?

  148. @red that debate would be easy. Itachi takes off shirt (they die of nosebleed) it’s super effective or sakura and Ino accidentally stab each other somehow despite being side-by-side. Possibly Ino trips and kills herself while tripping Sakura killing her as well.
    @dragon I’d have to disagree because Chiyo was pretty badass, Kushina not only surviving the Kyuubi extraction but pulling back Kyuubi’s claw with weakened body with pure willpower. Also you gotta give credit to Hinata for standing up to Peon.

  149. @Baron

    I’m afraid you would have to use a bit of logic when it comes to Konan and her explosive tags.

    Now, the only way she would be able to create 200 000 000 000 in such a short space of time that she did, is if her jutsu was able to create it. There is no way in hell she could have possibly sat there and manually hand crafted around 38000 tags a second, that is just impossible. I also highly doubt any hidden village or even country would have a large enough store of exploding tags to fill an entire ocean, for her to just order for delivery.

    You really need to know when to concede a point. O_o

    P.S. Everyone debates to win. But we also debate for fun. I just didn’t like the way you kept accusing me of making assumptions when you were doing just that as well, because it makes the debate frustrating.

    Anyway, sorry if I came across as hostile.

  150. Spoilers are starting to come out.

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/72293-Naruto-554-Spoiler-Pics-Summaries

  151. @ Baron – To this point we have seen Kisame in 2 Major Battles so even if he could heal himself which wasn’t shown, he would have to use up a lot of Chakra doing so, this would in effect be an advantage to Pain and Konan since they both be playing a war to draw out the result, and making Itachi and Kisame tired!

    “Don’t get condescending. You know what I meant. There’s a difference in the way they use the statue. The only time we’ve seen Nagato use Gedo Mazo as the ninja slaying monster, he shortened his life and became an invalid. Pain has never used Gedo Mazo in that sense.”

    This is false, Nagato was crippled by the explosive tags, the summoning did weaken him but not kill him, Also Nagato was never present for the sealing of the Tailed Beasts.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-266-12/naruto/chapter-261.html

    This shows where Deva had it summoned just a reflection of himself was enough to he should be able to summon it to the battle field then too, also Tobi has shown u can summon Gedo Moza without the chakra rods in back effect 😉

    As to your claim to Victory… Having many people debate for you but you all screaming the same strategy and when we counter it, it is met with the same. “that can’t be its just too strong” so yeah in the end the merit of this debate should be in the context not the numbers

  152. Ok, I have to break my no-debating-in-my-own-debate rule. Can’t keep my mouth closed any longer lol.

    @ten – The problem is that we don’t actually know what the prerequisites are for the “create 600,000,000,000 exploding tags no jutsu” or what the actual process involves, whether external material is required, etc etc. We know there must be a jutsu behind it, but we don’t what what it is or what’s required and thus we can’t assume that she can use the jutsu to create exploding tags in the middle of a fight. I personally find it incredibly hard to believe that she can produce 600,000,000,000 individual pieces of paper out of thin air even if you gave her a month to do it.

    @pein – Kisame NEVER gets tired lol. Even if you discount Kisame’s massive chakra base, he can also use whatever chakra he steals to heal himself too. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that Samehada’s healing technique consumes a massive amount of chakra. I personally don’t think it’d tire him at all, considering it’s not using Kisame’s own chakra to do heal rather than that of Samehada.

  153. @Darks

    Konan used explosive tags against Madara both in the form of her ultimate jutsu, and in her initial attack against him where she tried to blow herself up. Note, that was her own body transforming into paper, and yet she was still able to produce exploding tags. In the anime, she also uses it in her attack against Konoha, where her paper clones explode.

    Now, you can assume that she needs to create it beforehand if you like, but I believe that is very unlikely. She wouldn’t be an S-class shinobi in Akatsuki if she was weak.

    How would you suggest that she created 200 000 000 000 exploding tags in such a short time if not with a jutsu? You yourself said you find it incredibly hard to believe that she created that many in the first place, but it did happen regardless. That’s why I can only see it being possible with a jutsu, because there is no way in hell she could have crafted those tags using external resources. That would have taken years.

    Yes, I agree that we don’t know all the prerequisets for her jutsu, but that could be said for a lot of jutsu. That doesn’t mean we can just start disregarding a combatant’s strength, because that makes the debate unbalanced.

  154. @Ten

    “Note, that was her own body transforming into paper, and yet she was still able to produce exploding tags.”

    That’s not entirely accurate. I went back to the fight scene, and found this:

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-7/naruto/chapter-509.html

    Note Madara’s response: “She mixed her papers with explosive tags…”

    This suggests that these exploding tags were pre-existing ones that she mixed in with the plain pieces of paper she creates. Also, if she could create explosive tags, why wouldn’t Konan have turned ALL her paper sheets into explosive tags?

    And you misunderstand me. Just because I don’t believe she can create thousands upon thousands of explosive tags from thin air, doesn’t mean I think she’s weak AT ALL. In actuality, I consider her to be one of the most powerful kunoichi in the manga, and I don’t believe she needs to be able to swamp the battlefield with explosive tags to be an effective part of the Pein/Konan war machine.

    Besides, she’s damn fine. 😄

    “How would you suggest that she created 200 000 000 000 exploding tags in such a short time if not with a jutsu?”

    Like I said, I agree there must be a jutsu she used to create the tags. That doesn’t mean that this jutsu didn’t need preparation of it’s own. Or extra materials to be used in the technique. Or any number of unknown factors. Dude, I’m not trying to take things away from you, I’m just saying that this is a jutsu we’ve never seen performed in the manga and it would be illogical to assume that it could be used in the middle of a fight based on pure speculation.

  155. @Darks

    I understand what you are trying to say, but speculations are a big part of debates.

    People will say Itachi is faster or smarter than Pein when there is actually no solid proof. People will speculate that Kisame can heal without stealing chakra from his opponents first, when we actually don’t know for certain whether the Samehada would have enough chakra on its own to heal him without stealing some first.

    We’ll speculate that Tsukyomi works on a rinnegan user, when we also can’t be sure that this is the case. At the end of the day, it’s going to happen on both sides of the field. It’s all about trying to justify one’s points with either logic, or evidence. In this case, I’m trying to use the evidence shown in the manga (Konan producing 200 billion tags) as well as logic around how Konan could have possibly created so many over a short time.

    In any case, it’s just the way I see it, that’s all. I agree with you on all your other points about Konan. @___@

    Lol. I was actually going to take a break from this debate, but you people keep sucking me back in. <___<

  156. @Ten

    “I understand what you are trying to say, but speculations are a big part of debates.”

    True, but where fact cannot be established, a point needs solid evidence behind it before it can be used. Now, being the judge on this debate, I’ll settle a few of the points you brought up then:

    “People will say Itachi is faster or smarter than Pein when there is actually no solid proof.”

    I don’t see the relevance of being smarter than the other, because they are BOTH intelligent shinobi. Itachi has had the more opportunities to demonstrate his intellect, true, and Nagato can somehow control six different bodies at the same time, which would place his multi-tasking abilities above any woman I can think of lol. I believe someone summed it up nicely earlier when they said that any move any combatant in this debate makes will be a well calculated one. There will be no wasted movement.

    As for speed, there are plenty of examples of Itachi’s hand-movement speed. In that regard, he is the faster jutsu-user and master of the quickdraw lol. As for actual movement speed, Deva Path has been shown to run at similar speed as six-tailed Naruto, being able to keep himself ahead of the fox until they were quite a way into the forest. With this in mind, and with little evidence of Itachi being an extremely fast runner, I would say Pein’s Deva Path is the fastest combatant on the field. Of course, if anyone has any evidence suggesting Itachi is faster, please bring it forward.

    “We’ll speculate that Tsukyomi works on a rinnegan user, when we also can’t be sure that this is the case.”

    There is considerable doubt on whether Tsukuyomi will work on a Rinnegan user. Therefore, the onus is on the pro-Itachi side to provide solid evidence to show that it would work on any of the Paths as they are the ones putting the argument forward that it will.

    “People will speculate that Kisame can heal without stealing chakra from his opponents first, when we actually don’t know for certain whether the Samehada would have enough chakra on its own to heal him without stealing some first.”

    There has never been any evidence that the healing jutsu requires a particularly large amount of chakra before it can be used. Samehada happens to be constantly feeding off one of the richest and deepest chakra pools in the entire manga when he’s paired with Kisame. I’m sure it would manage lol.

    As for your point about Konan creating tags from thin air and referencing her initial attack on Madara as an example, I believe I addressed that already. The evidence does not lie in your favour there.

  157. If you are guys interested in the
    spoiler:http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/72293-Naruto-554-Spoiler-Pics-Summaries

  158. @Darks.

    “True, but where fact cannot be established, a point needs solid evidence behind it before it can be used.”

    Lol. You did read my whole point about backing up speculations with logic and evidence right? I was never trying to dispute that and I always do my best to support my arguments.

    “There has never been any evidence that the healing jutsu requires a particularly large amount of chakra before it can be used.”

    And there has never been any particular evidence that Konan can’t make exploding tags whenever she pleases. My argument is no less valid than you believe yours to be, ultimately. And that’s the bottom line I am trying to get to here.

    I can also show you evidence that suggests that the Samehada does need to absorb chakra before it can restore Kisame and a good example is his battle against Gai. As soon as Kisame took hold of the Samehada, he had it bite on Bee to absorb his chakra while Kisame restored himself. Then there’s the dialogue where in their first battle, Bee’s companion said that Kisame steals his opponent’s chakra to restore his own stamina. It’s as good as you saying that Konan mixed exploding tags with her paper therefore she may need to prepare that jutsu before she enters a battle.

    Seeing as how you can’t prove for certain that Kisame can heal without stealing chakra first, your argument is still just speculation, as much as you say mine is. Especially when you consider the fact that Kisame has never healed himself through the Samehada before it has stolen someone else’s chakra first.

  159. heated debate is heated

  160. @ten –

    “And there has never been any particular evidence that Konan can’t make exploding tags whenever she pleases. My argument is no less valid than you believe yours to be, ultimately. And that’s the bottom line I am trying to get to here.”

    The problem with that reasoning is that we haven’t actually seen any examples of her creating exploding tags from thin air, and in as large a scale as you say she can. Once you provide evidence of her doing it in real time and in as large a scale as you claim, I will concede the point to you. Until you do though, that particular argument isn’t valid.

    And to be honest, you don’t really need it. You have all the destructive power you need in Pein.

    “I can also show you evidence that suggests that the Samehada does need to absorb chakra before it can restore Kisame and a good example is his battle against Gai. As soon as Kisame took hold of the Sanmehada, he had it bite on Bee to absorb his chakra while Kisame restored himself.”

    To me, it appears that Kisame is just replenishing his chakra as his is running dangerously low. He doesn’t actually appear to be injured, thus he’s not using Samehada to heal himself per se. Would he need the extra chakra if he was running full to the brim and Samehada had been feeding off him for a while (his normal battle-ready state)? Arguably not. Remember, this dude has a chakra pool comparable to a jinchuuriki already. Why would he need more?

    “Bee’s companion said that Kisame steals his opponent’s chakra to restore his own stamina.”

    Stamina is not physical health. The two aren’t comparable.

    “Seeing as how you can’t prove for certain that Kisame can heal without steeling chakra first…”

    I don’t need to. Samehada’s healing ability can be used in this debate because Kisame has demonstrated the ability to use it in combat, and no chakra limitations have been outlined in the manga whatsoever. The fact that he had first absorbed chakra from Bee first is irrelevant, unless you can provide satisfactory evidence to say that it is a requirement for the jutsu. You are trying to put the limitation on me, therefore the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support your claim. And none of the evidence you’ve provided thus far is enough to back your argument.

    In regards to Konan, she HASN’T actually demonstrated the ability to do create these tags in huge numbers from thin air to us AT ALL, and certainly not in the heat of battle. If it was an established jutsu and she had demonstrated the ability to use it in front of us whether in or outside of battle, it would be my job to show why she couldn’t use it in the debate. But because she hasn’t, and it’s an unknown, it is your job to provide evidence that it can.

  161. Now keep in mind that I am not barracking for either team. I am just here to clarify a few points on both sides. It’s up to the rest of you to debate till there’s a winner.

  162. @ Darks – that link you show is actually pretty pointless, as a shinobi is Explosive Tags not a Ninja Tool, kinda like a shuriken? So in the end we know that Konan can create paper rapidly and all you need then is an explosive seal, if you claim that she can’t make it quickly then propose to me how she made the 600 Billion? if you can give me a relative answer which in the space of Narutverse makes sense then that is different… We have seen that Kisame could heal himself but never without the Chakra of well another Bijuu level chakra person…. This was shown in Tenrai’s link earlier.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-14/naruto/chapter-509.html

    Even Madara praises her for her abilities too…

    But this has become a debate of Nigly point to try prove Kisame and Konan are strong fighters but where are the counters to Gedo Moza? or The Konoha Destroying Gravity Field, or even the Moon making Jutsu?

    Black Flames – Counter by obstructing Itachi’s view constantly with many paper shurikens… Also remember his limit!!! He doesn’t have a lot of Chakra unlike Nagato who is basicall haxed
    Susanoo – Keep distance as much as you can if the sword seals on of the Pains then well Nagato will learn that ability and move away.
    Giant Water Bubble – Fight From the Air, i.e Summons for Pain and Konan’s wings. If trapped in the bubble have the absorbing deva and animal path, absorb the water, deva push the water aside and animal displace the water with his bigger summons.
    In general keep distance from Kisame and keep him busy with powerful summons and the path that fires rockets, plus many explosive tags, Konan would have some as ninja tools anyways…

  163. @Pein

    You haven’t read my posts properly. I don’t deny that Konan can make 600 billion tags fast. The problem is, we don’t really know how and if it was a jutsu, we don’t know anything about it and what it requires to work. Whether you think the link is pointless or not, it counters the claim that Konan can produce a huge amount of explosive tags in a short time without preparing beforehand.

    Of course Madara praises her abilities. She’s friggin awesome! lol I’ll never deny that. That in itself isn’t proof of anything though.

    As for all your arguments about specific techniques, don’t debate them with me lol. I’m the judge and so I don’t have a team I’m debating on behalf of. Debate the others!! 😄

  164. Lol!! No one seems to care about the spoiler they’re all busy on debate.. Lol!!

    Raw Scans of Chapter 554! Enjoy! 😀

    http://animeprodestiny.forumcommunity.net/?t=6273063&p=331915528

  165. I’ll be the first to say: IT’S OUT!!!
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/30146172/1

  166. @ Darks and other General Debaters 😉 – So what she sat on her butt and in 1 month poof 600 Million tags appeared <_<

    What we taking as proof of the Jutsu is the Scale over the Time of the Jutsu, this is a valid principle in maths etc. If you earn 10 000 a month, how much do you earn per day, a month is on average 20 working days so you earn 500 a day, this is basic maths. I understand your point though, maybe it would take her a long time to complete such a jutsu and maybe not, in the end maybe Kisame needs others Chakra to heal maybe not.

    Both have almost exactly the same problem we never seen them use it more then once and both time the facts have been given to us by a third party.

    So whether we look at it from a view point of this only makes sense this way or by the point that only if its a FACT then we can use it. If it is only a FACT then we have a problem with a lot of the jutsu's given… Some say that this or that wont affect Susanoo but their is no Fact that says that it will repel against Deva's Paths Moon Jutsu or even the Almighty Push (I really hate names of Naruto things… Cant spell half of it for S@$t) since both those attacks change gravity, and are not in essence elemental jutsu or physical, its more a physics thing.

    Well in the end we have Konan's Paper which she can produce a lot of and quickly, this is my counter to Black Flames of Itachi,

    "Debate the others" – But that is the point, I am saying we getting stuck on –
    Kisame cant revive without others chakra
    Konan cannot use explosive tags.

    The end the Tags are more a Tool then a Technique, but the same way she will have many prepared, maybe not 600 Million BUT the same way Itachi seems to have millions of Shuriken around to fight, we can assume that other ninja are also prepared.. Anyways like I say its a nigly topic and while I want to debate the greater picture with the people on Team Kisame and Itachi, seem to get stuck on these small points which would over whelm Itachi and them but even without the tags, Konan still can remain out of reach for Itachi and Kisame jutsu, Flames wont hurt her paper and just by scattering/obstructing Itachi's view she can keep Tsukyomi and Black Flames at bay, attack in a more Gorilla war fare manner, while neither Itachi or Kisame can fly, We still have Pain who can keep them at bay with distance attacks.

    ———————————————————————————————

  167. @pein –

    “What we taking as proof of the Jutsu is the Scale over the Time of the Jutsu, this is a valid principle in maths etc. If you earn 10 000 a month, how much do you earn per day, a month is on average 20 working days so you earn 500 a day, this is basic maths.”

    That’s not my point. I agree with what you’re saying. She definitely did somehow produce 600,000,000,000 tags a short time-frame. The problem is that WE DON’T KNOW HOW. Now, we can ASSUME that she used a jutsu to create these tags, but if she did, we don’t know the specifics of this jutsu, whether it needs preparation, whether she needs extra material, and all that stuff, and you cannot make the assumption that she can just create these tags from thin air during the middle of a fight.

    “So whether we look at it from a view point of this only makes sense this way or by the point that only if its a FACT then we can use it.”

    No. As I explained in my above post to Tenrai, when something cannot be established as fact, a point needs to have solid evidence to support it before it can be used. If it can be referenced, it can be used. I can reference the page in which Kisame uses Samehada to heal himself. Can you do the same for Konan making a huge number of exploding tags from thin air with no preparation or extra materials except her chakra whatsoever? No.

    That said, if you wish to impose a limitation on a jutsu that can be referenced in the manga and where the manga has not specifically stated that a limitation exists, the onus is on YOU to provide evidence that a limitation exists, and since in this case you are trying to argue that Kisame cannot heal himself with Samehada without having absorbed a truckload of chakra from his opponent first, you are the one who needs to find evidence to support your claim. If you cannot, and since the manga doesn’t definitively state that this is a requirement for Samehada’s healing ability, we have to go by the assumption that he can.

    “Anyways like I say its a nigly topic and while I want to debate the greater picture with the people on Team Kisame and Itachi, seem to get stuck on these small points”

    Exactly why I stepped in in the first place lol. Clear up the little things so that we can focus on the big picture.

  168. So the 3rd’s strongest attack is raikiri 😛

  169. the picture on page 20 of mangastream is freakin sick

  170. Dude the 3rd I incredible, speed and power all in one. You might even consider not even those 10000 shinobi couldn’t wear the old man down at rate he’s handling this fight. Not a scratch from the FRS, that’s got to be the biggest jaw dropper in the history of this manga. That and Tenten actually doing something.

    I also liked Naruto’s observation skills and the way he planned the first FRS attack. He made a great 3 part combo that, maybe, only the 3rd Raikage could have survived and Itachi & Sasuke with the aid of Susano’o.

    The fact that the chapter only focused on this particular fight was a bit of a let down, but all in all I’m glad we had a good enough chapter after so many awesome past ones.

    And I really hope Naruto will bring some extra ZING to the BIjuu Dama next week, also I wonder how he’s gonna throw it.

    Maybe he’ll add the wind to the jutsu and make a Flying Rassen BIjuu Dama.

  171. So, the Bijuu bomb is stronger then the rasenshuriken. Sweet. I’m glad the other guy is helping Naruto. I hope Temari finds some panel time and help catch the Raikage off guard. So, what came first Kakashi’s Lighting blade or Raikage’s. I think it was Kakashi and the Raikage learned about it by seeing it. I think that’s how the 4th Raikage learnt about Kakashi having it, in his fight with Sauske.

  172. @ Darks – but I am still confused on this topic… Let me see if this is right

    Konan cannot just create explosive tags because of 1.) Madara’s statement in their battle and 2.) There is no difinitive proof saying she can?

    Though in Kisame’s case we see him heal himself after absorbing the chakra plus the other person stating what we are saying, we have seen Kisame in other battles against Gai for example no using this ability, and we must still bring proof proving that this is not the case when Konan cannot be brought forward because we cannot as a fact say this is how she did it? This is where I am lost, maybe I am missing a key point… We know Kisame uses Salamada (which absorbs chakra) to heal himself, and we know Konan uses Paper to create her explosive tag, we know that in the manga that bushy eye brows guy (not Gai) said this was Kisame stealing his opponents chakra to heal himself and we have seen Kisame’s lack of ability to do so with Gai who doesn’t really fight with Chakra?

    <_<

  173. @Darks

    You’re still missing my ultimate point, I think. At the end of the day, you still can’t prove that Kisame can heal without stealing chakra first. You can speculate and give reasons why you think he can, just like I can tell you why I think Konan can produce explosive tags, but you cannot prove it with cold, hard facts.

    “I don’t need to. Samehada’s healing ability can be used in this debate because Kisame has demonstrated the ability to use it in combat, and no chakra limitations have been outlined in the manga whatsoever.”

    So, you don’t need to prove your points, but I have to prove mine? The Samehada’s healing has only been demonstrated AFTER Kisame has absorbed his opponent’s chakra. You saying that I can’t provide evidence that chakra absorption is needed first is still the same as me saying that you can’t provide evidence that Konan can’t create exploding tags while fighting. There is ultimately no difference. Neither ability has had it’s parameters outlined and both are still somewhat of a mystery. So therefore, your points are as presumptuous as you say mine are.

    Let’s face it. Kisame actually HASN’T demonstrated the ability to heal himself with the Samehada without stealing his opponent’s chakra first. So, this is a point that we just ultimately won’t agree on.

    In any case, let’s leave it at that before we start going around in circles again. I think we can just about write it off as a moot point by now. It doesn’t really matter if you don’t agree with me or whatever.

    @Wiseman

    The third Raikage was apparently in power thirty years prior to the fourth (and current) shinobi war. So, basically, he was already raikage by the time Kakashi was born. He was also already fairly old by the time Kakashi became a jounin and created Raikiri, so I think it stands to reason the Raikage most likely created his jutsu long before Kakashi did.

    However, that isn’t to say either one copied the other. It was probably a coincidence that Kakashi’s Raikiri was similar to The Raikage’s technique.

    @Eugen

    Naruto’s Bijuu Dama is – I am assuming – going to be similar in effect to what Bee’s is like; a blast of pure chakra in a kamehameha wave like fashion. So, I don’t think he will be throwing it, so much as “shooting” it.

  174. haha I’m picturing Raikage doing his lightning blade from hell and Naruto with his Bijuu Dama going head on and then get caught in the same thing he and sauske were caught in.

  175. “Though in Kisame’s case we see him heal himself after absorbing the chakra plus the other person stating what we are saying, we have seen Kisame in other battles against Gai for example no using this ability, and we must still bring proof proving that this is not the case when Konan cannot be brought forward because we cannot as a fact say this is how she did it? This is where I am lost, maybe I am missing a key point… We know Kisame uses Salamada (which absorbs chakra) to heal himself, and we know Konan uses Paper to create her explosive tag, we know that in the manga that bushy eye brows guy (not Gai) said this was Kisame stealing his opponents chakra to heal himself and we have seen Kisame’s lack of ability to do so with Gai who doesn’t really fight with Chakra?”

    No, What we saw was Kisame healing himself with Samehada. The Enka man than said Kisame steals opponents chakra and gives it to the wielder in the form of stamina, not chakra. He never said Kisame needs other’s chakra to gain enough stamina for Kisame to heal.
    As for Kisame´s fight with Gai, he didn´t have Samehada then. So that´s proof Kisame needs Samehada to heal. It doesn´t mean Kisame can´t heal without stealing chakra first.

    “and we know Konan uses Paper to create her explosive tag”

    Correction, we know Konan creates paper. That’s the difference between her usual attacks (which would still be helpfull in this debate if used wisely) and her exploding tags attack against Madara. She herself said she prepared the exploding tags. Why would she prepare tags if she can create them with her jutsu? Also, why didn’t she use a few thousand exploding tags when she attacked Jiraiya. She knew how strong Jiraiya was and Pain told her to kill Jiraiya if she got the chance and not to wait for Pain. So why didn’t she use exploding tags then?

    Furthermore, If she really could produce such an amount of exploding tags with a jutsu than she would be, by far, the most powerful character in the Narutoverse. Just think for a second what 600 billion exploding tags really mean. Can we compare one tag to a stick of TNT? From the explosions we’ve seen created by exploding tags I think we probably can. One stick of TNT weighs about 0.62 pounds. That’s roughly 0.28 kg. So 600 billion exploding tags is the equivalent of a !!168 Megaton bomb!! That’s more than 3!!! times as powerful as the most powerful bomb ever created by mankind (Tsar Bomba, 50 Megatons or the equivalent of 50 billion kg’s of TNT).
    Even if a tag is only 1/10 as powerful as a stick of TNT, 600 billion of them would still be enough to reduce a country to ashes. Remember, the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki we’re bombs with a kiloton yield. Imagine those bombs a few hundred times more powerful…

    With those numbers, why would Pain try to capture all Tailed Beasts. He could just put that many exploding tags in a shell and blast the entire world to hell. ^__^

    I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that it’s impossible to put logic and the Narutoverse together. Could Konan have prepared that many exploding tags? Off course not. The best way to explain the amount is Kishi trying to make the shit-storm that was about to slap Madara in the face look absolutely unsurvivable (is that a word?).

    Anyway, the debate was fun. I’m looking forward to whatever match up will be thought up next. Perhaps an open match debate of sorts? In example one fixed contender like Minato and people bringing forth one contender they think can win against Minato and why they think their contender is the best option. (The people vs. Minato)
    Just an example off course, I thought Minato would be a good one seeing as even Madara couldn’t best him in the manga. But there are others too.
    We see how powerful the third Raikage is now, Madara has always been haxed and Kakashi goes on epic rampages in his roflcopter.

    Just a few examples of contenders one would normally need an army AND Chuck Norris for to defeat them.

  176. BTW, I forgot to point out a few things from the manga.
    Why we’re the ninja’s ordered to put up a earth release wall?! We’ve seen hundreds of times earth release doesn’t cut it against lightning. Hell, even wood release can’t defend against it.
    “http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/308/4”
    So what made them think they could stop a Super Saiyan level 2 ninja from braking through that wall… >__>

    Also, lightning is weak against wind. That Rasenshuriken should have blown away that Raiton armour and shown at least some effect. Illogical Kishi is being illogical.
    And lastly, where is Bee all of a sudden… Or did Kishi “forget” him to make this fight last a little longer than it would if Bee was there.

  177. The exploding tags have gotten a pointless now to be honest. I was supporting it at first but I don’t really get why it has been argued for and against downt he whole length of this debate and only as a backdrop to Peins power anyway. Just seems kinda silly to me.
    Konan’s paper even without explosions is more than enough to beat Kisame. The fact that she can attack from all his sides, its as strong as iron, impervious to water and fire jutsu, shown firstly when Jiraiya failed to damage her with his toad spitting thingy jutsu and then when Pein used a water jutsu to clean the oil off, and it is capable of immobilising opponents. Its perfectly reasonable to think she could seperate Samehada from Kisame by attacking in a fashion similar to the Aburame’s where she surrounds him with a bit of a distance and attacks all at once. Sure samehada could and would suck the chakra from some (ok a lot) of them but she can immobilise his arms and make shuriken that can change coarse in the air. Then she also has her paper clones which she can place tags in (the regular, just being carried kind, not the jutsu made kind) and they can be suicide bombers and whatnot. Also she can fly, and all the winners fly. Superman, Green Lantern, Son Goku….Everyone…

    Kakashi’s Chidori was made when he was 13 in the gaiden right? He said it was his new jutsu then. That was 17 years prior to the current timeframe. The third Raikage was well in his power by then and its safe to assume had his ultimate technique sorted out, so the kage made it first. Anyway his is better than Kakashi’s since he doesn’t need a sharingan to counter a tunnel vision effect and he can refine it even tighter.

  178. @ten – the reason you have to prove your point is that Konan HAS NOT DEMONSTRATED the ability to CREATE explosive tags from thin air in ANY capacity WHATSOEVER. Kisame, however ,has actually demonstrated the ability to heal with Samehada. We know it’s possible. It can be referenced. The reason that I do not have to prove that Kisame doesn’t need to steal chakra to heal himself first is because there is no restrictions outlined in the manga. Because I have provided evidence that he can heal, YOU have to provide evidence that he can’t heal without stealing chakra first. Evidence cannot be countered with speculation. With Konan, because you cannot reference her ability to create explosive tags on the fly, it is speculation, and speculation can be countered with reasonable doubt.

    You realize that it would be a different story if you could provide evidence of Konan using this unknown jutsu in the manga, right?

  179. @ CyborgFranky,

    Kisame can absorb chakra as well. 😉
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/506/5

    Ninjutsu are pointless against Kisame so although Konan has one of the rarest ninjutsu in the manga it’s still ninjutsu. She creates and controls her paper with chakra.
    Also, Konan isn’t impervious to fire jutsu. In fact, she submerged herself in water to ensure she wouldn’t get burned. If fire doesn’t hurt her she wouldn’t need to do submerge herself in water.

  180. Well, I’m with the pein side based on the debate, but if they’re in their prime, shouldn’t Itachi be able to modify Shisui’s eye into doing what ever the F*** he wanted? We know that three paths were incapacitated with genjutsu before, so couldn’t he theoretically incapacitate the path of his choosing? Maybe I’m out of line about giving Itachi one more thing. But that is something Nagato would have zero knowledge of. (btw, I still laugh about pein not knowing the rocks were Naruto)

  181. ok so since all the pains have shared vision wouldnt they all see tsukyomi?

  182. @Miller
    Also a good argument. In fact, from a logical stand point, that would probably end it alone. You can’t argue what’s been stated as fact in the manga. Of coarse there’s still Konan, and I imagine she would have prepared something by the time Itachi used tsukyomi. That is of coarse saying the original rule of “No super jutsu starts allowed” is in effect. That is also assuming Konan has a reasonable means of using her explosive jutsus.

    I also agree that stipulations on logic would have to apply. If they knew nothing, I could definitely see Kisami being a huge factor for them. If they knew a little, (They likely wouldn’t know about Kisami’s fuse) then yeah, likely still a very tough Itachi win. However, if they knew everything, Pein and Konan win. There’s just no way Nagato would be foolish enough to be surprised by a move he should have known was coming.

    Throwing a lot of ifs out there, and don’t really even want to debate, but a solid factor is if the Rinnegan can see through genjutsus targeting sight. I know sound works, but would it fall prey to the sharingan induced genjutsus? We have yet to confirm anything like that.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I must go save the Gorons from the evil dragon Volvagia. Hammer time yo!

  183. @ Darks –

    Kisame displayed being able to heal himself here…

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-39730-14/naruto/chapter-471.html

    Here it shows that he needs Salamanda to heal himself? Not his own chakra but Salamanda’s! This is the point I was also making earlier it would take a lot of strength since its not Kisame’s chakra either it would have to be Salamanda, Salamanda gains strength from the chakra it absorbs… (No Proof) Its Size changes as it gain’s more and more chakra. So this is why Kisame would need to have absorbed the chakra first since Salamanda though it may have some chakra it is not on the level of Kisame and Kisame has never shown the ability to heal himself using his own chakra either, plus we have a quote of “YOU STEAL YOUR OPPONENTS CHAKRA AND CONVERT IT TO YOUR OWN STAMINA” its there clear as day, so in 3 senses there its been denied, give me a reason why he can do it,

    Konan used millions of bombs after preparation
    Kisame healed himself after absorbing a lot of chakra

    Tobi stated that she place bombs between her paper shuriken
    that random dude stated that Kisame steal chakra to heal.

    Both showed these abilities after the fact (meaning once the requirements where forfilled) so stating that either was demonstrated is simple, Kisame also stated he is “AS” strong as the opponent he faces so this suggests besides his own chakra he needs his opponents too… O_o

    ———————————————————————————————-

  184. Hey guys. I just wanted to let you all know about the writing competition, for those who may not know about it yet. Here’s the link.

    http://weareawesomeness.net/2011/09/07/naruto-writing-competition-the-first-round-starts-now/

    Even if you don’t want to enter, please show your support by reading some of the posts and giving feedback for the entries we receive. A lot of effort goes into writing, so it would be nice if we could all reward that effort with some good feedback for the authors.

    Thank you! ^ ^

  185. Pein, Samehada chakra signature is identical to Kisame’s. We also know that Samehada is constantly feeding off Kisame, a shinobi with jinchuuriki-level chakra. Samehada chakra IS Kisame’s. It is not unreasonable to assume that Kisame can heal himself with Samehada. If you believe that it is unreasonable, provide evidence.

    Also, stamina is not synonymous with physical health. Restoring your stamina is not the same as healing yourself.

    Lastly, you haven’t shown that stealing chakra is a requirement of healing, and that is the point you keep tripping on. The fact that he absorbed Bee’s chakra before healing himself is purely coincidental. And i can say it’s coincidental because the manga doesn’t specifically state that it’s a necessity. If you disagree, again, provide solid evidence.

    Now this is how it works, Pein. The argument that Kisame can heal with Samehada can be backed by an actual manga reference. Therefore, to counter it, or place a restriction on it of any kind (like saying it cannot be used till Kisame has stolen enough chakra from his opponent), YOU need to provide evidence supporting your claim, not me. Evidence and proof counters evidence,not speculation. Merely pointing out that he stole chakra before using Samehada to heal himself is speculation, because it doesn’t actually say in the manga that it is a necessity. In the same breath, assuming Konan can create explosive tags on the fly with no prep work whatsoever is also speculation, as you cannot provide evidence in the form of a manga reference where we can see her doing this. My argument is backed by evidence, your argument is speculation. You cannot compare the two in the way that you have.

  186. Lol. Darks, you seem to be getting quite involved in this debate. 😛

  187. Rawr. >=3

  188. “It is not unreasonable to assume that Kisame can heal himself with Samehada. If you believe that it is unreasonable, provide evidence.”

    So we assuming an assumption needs to proven against <_<

    Sigh, I am bored now of this factor thing, as stated by strange eye's dude the chakra is stolen to replenish stamina the word translated can mean vitallity and health but contrary to belief that is stated in the manga, @_@ whether its enough to prove for or against it, is purely debatable and this circle will continue forever… So yeah such is life…

    The debate will have to return to the point of Pain/Konan vs Kisame.Itachi and still I haven't seen any counter to most of Pain's abilities or even strategies 😛 but in the end must now be decided by the next breakdown writer 🙂

  189. “as stated by strange eye’s dude the chakra is stolen to replenish stamina the word translated can mean vitallity and health”

    The manga makes a clear distinction between chakra and stamina. Chakra is molded into a jutsu, stamina is what allows someone to use jutsu after jutsu without getting tired. That’s why Kisame said he would never tire. That’s why Naruto can create so many shadow clones. Remember Kakashi explained that, because Naruto has such a tremendous amount of chakra and stamina, Naruto is capable of doing the same as Sasuke could when they we’re training. Sasuke makes up for his lack of a vast amount of chakra and stamina by his chakra control, using less chakra to create jutsu’s. Those 3 are the key components of the jutsu skill of a ninja but if you say one of those key’s is extremely low that doesn’t mean the ninja can’t do a jutsu anymore. And what Kisame did is a jutsu. So massive amount of stolen chakra or not, Kisame can heal because we know Kisame has a massive amount of chakra and stamina of his own (The 30% clone was comparable to Naruto). It only takes less of a strain after he steals other peoples chakra because he won’t be wasting his own stamina.

  190. Now how can chakra not literally be stamina when it is made up of physical energy? I grant that there is the spiritual energy half of it but clearly if it has physical energy as a component that is exactly the same as any regular form of stamina. If you go back to Sakura’s lecture in the Zabuza arc she says you mix the two different types to make jutsu. Since we don’t know the ratios (or care) we can’t say how much physical energy goes into any one jutsu but its very safe to assume chakra=energy=stamina.
    Also the word Pein was reffering to was genki which has a lot of transtations and that your comment was quite unrealted to Baron.

  191. You’re talking about this.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/018/6

    Stamina is considered something entirely different.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/018/7

    See.

  192. how about this Kakashi vs The Third Raikage!

  193. @kantonkage….as awesome as Kakashi is, he’d be dead in seconds. The Raikage would behead him before he could form a single seal

  194. @ New Debate: How about the Third Raikage vs The Fourth Hokage, That aught to be a good fight don’t ya think?

    If not that then Orochimaru vs the Second Mizukage then perhaps?

  195. I started working for about 3 weeks now and haven’t really been that active anymore but you guys left a hell of a lot to read, I’m guessing it’s more or less about the tag team debate and if it is, well done Darks for the inspiration.

    But I really amazed none of you except Baron comment on the new chapter, You know the one with the Shrek dude and Naruto, the one where Naruto made the best strategy so far in order to hit the Raikage and after that…………… nothing happened except Naruto managing to destroy the raiton armor. At least the FRS works against lightning armor :)).

    But why the hell would the Raikage need the armor when he’s a strong as Kempaichi, I guess It’s only for the added speed.

    I give you the fact that it was a bit of boring chapter but two thing gave it real meaning:

    1st: Naruto can be badass even if he’s a kage bunshin (in case no one knew that the Naruto in this manga was a clone).
    2nd: The dude in almost 99% gonna stick a Bijuu Dama up Raikage’s back side next week and guess what,…… He’s a clone, so all the other clones and the original will learn how to do the jutsu after he releases the bunshin.

    All in all it was a good chapter, BUT I really pissed guys like DODAI the eyepatch dude have kekgenkai, like Mizukage and the old man Jinchuriki’s Yoton=Lava release.
    What the hell is wrong with Kishi making all this kekegenkai so commercial, they will loose all there awesomness because of this and will feel really cheap.

    Anyway great job guys, i’ll try and catch up next week too.

  196. How about Naruto vs Kakashi? That would be one for the fanboys.

    Kukukuku…

  197. @Tenrai – Kakashi wins in seconds using “friendship”… and a bowl of ramen!

  198. Ramen FTEW!

  199. @ Eugen,

    Kekkei Genkai are so 2010. Today it’s all about Kekkei Töta, Space Time jutsu’s and a few more jutsu’s the current generation obviously stole from Tobirama. ^__^

  200. hi ! i didnt read the whole debate but…

    i do favor team pein in this one. mainly because obviously pein is a perfect match to kick itachi`s butt .
    1. pein in 6 paths form cant be hit with tsukoyomi since he will always be able to neutralize the genjutsu (there is 6 of em!) while itachi can only hit 1 at a time with it
    2. shinra tensei works on everything, even itachis susanoo (there is no hint in the manga that would indicate otherwise)
    3. amaterasu can be absorbed and the pains can be revived
    4. team pein has incredible space control with flying paperplanes, mass summons, demonpath with his stupid rockets and ofc the jedi push and pull.

  201. New chapter is out on mangastream

  202. Hey guys! its been almost a year since Ive logged on and you guys are going at it just as fierce as ever! Pein Darks and Tenrai, you guys always make my day whenever I read your breakdowns/debates, or just good ol fashioned trolling….
    anywhooo, all ass kissing aside, I really like where this debate is going, but someone pointed this out and I dont think anyone considered it as valid. About using Tsukiyomi on the paths too affect all of them, that makes since since what one sees the rest do as well, Jiraiya’s genjutsu was sound based true, but didnt it end up affecting what he saw in the end? and doesnt the fact that all 6 of them share the same vision, which is also channeled to nagato himself mean that falling victim to Tsukiyomi would affect the mind of nagato? also, wouldnt Shisui’s eye be even more dangerous since its not possible to notice it taking effect? and while Im at it I want to verify my claim, that using genjutsu on the paths gets back to the source, can anyone confirm that as a fact?(off topic)How about The mind transfer jutsu? if some ninja uses genjutsu on Ino’s body while shes not there, will her current body suffer anything? At any rate, regardless of the answer, Im with team pein on this one because just one of his many skills includes kisames own trump: the ability to syphon chakra. as well the ability to heal any injuries so that would cancel out kisame’s major advantage.The Preta, Ashura, and Animal paths would be strong enough to take down kisame, which leaves Deva and Human paths plus Konan for Itachi. Nakara just has to worry about staying in the game, and would make for excellent bait/decoy. He could even setup a surprise ambush or two…

  203. @Dragon

    Lol. Well, Gaara does have the advantage that they are fighting in what is essentially a desert. So, he could overcome water just with sheer quantities of sand. Unless, of course, the Mizukage is like Kizame where he has enough chakra to produce all the water he needs from thin air.

    Even still, it should be an interesting battle.

    And happy birthday.

    @Westerndjango

    Welcome back.

    Anyway, as much as you could say all the paths of Pein share their vision, you can also just as well say they all share one mind as well, which would be true. We also know that genjutsu affects the brain by changing its victim’s chakra flow, causing them to halucinate, etc.

    And yet, even though all the paths share the same mind, only three were affected by Jiraiya’s genjutsu, while the others were still able to move and act seperately on their own. I believe that is because even though they all share their senses and their minds, they are still individual bodies that can act on their own accord and are seperate from one another in a way. Thus, what affects one of them, will not necessarily be shared with all of them.

    This would suggest that even if Itachi uses Tsukyomi on the one, that the others will remain unneffected. Seeing as how Tsukyomi is also a jutsu that causes psychological damage through torture, as opposed to paralysis as Jiraiya’s genjutsu did, we can’t even be sure if it would affect Pein’s bodies at all, because they are unfeeling and thus torture could very well be useless against them.

    This is also suggested in one of the anime episodes, where Ibiki tries to use a torture genjutsu on Animal path and fails to cause any problems.

  204. @ten
    just reread the fight and by god your right, team pein wins! :p
    @ naruto vs raikage
    something seemed very wrong with that fight. at the end of the fight he used an ordinary rasengan to hit just below his right shoulder, and that completely incapacitated him despite the effects of Edo Tensi..now, They heavily stressed the fact that that spot was his “weak spot” and thats fine, i guess….
    but what really got me was the fact that the FRS that came just before obliterated the weak point, and much more :-\..does anyone know why the FRS was insufficient?im sorta confused…

  205. In real life, Raikage stabbed himself with his “ultimate” spear, resulting in his death. The same thing happened in his Edo Tensei form. It wasn’t Naruto’s attack itself; he just used the rasengan to “bump” the Raikage’s arm into his chest, and the event repeated. I think it was the psychological effect of the same “embarrassing death” that made him pause and allowed him to be sealed.

  206. @arpotu: The Third Raikage didn’t kill himself. He died fighting 10000 Iwagakure shinobi. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81418428/13
    The only time he stabbed himself was when he collapsed in the fight with the Eight-Tails and that only left a scar. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/31829130/17

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