Naruto Chapter 551 Breakdown: We’re talking thriller, with lame jokes. <_<

This crow is gonna work wonders for my image. I just know it.

Dear Diary. Today was just one of those days.

It started out pretty well. I was making my way through the treetops, glowing like a candlestick, minding my own business and having a good time with my best friend who raps about as well as a sheet of tinfoil. It was everything I could have hoped for, but then things went south pretty quickly.

Suddenly, out of the blue, these two guys pop out of the bushes and tried to mug us. One looked like a toothpick with a mop on his head, and the other looked like that five-times international staring contest winner I saw on the television the other day. Both of them meant business and before I knew it, my soul was being sucked right out of me by the former toothpick, who had suddenly become prettified through reversed liposuction.

My friend – the tinfoil wrapper – tried to give me a hand, but he quickly found himself handling more hands than he could handle. O_o

Now that's what you call... a Pein in the neck. <_<

And that’s when it hit me… after everything else that hit me I mean.

I wasn’t going to live long enough to see the fourth Transformers movie. My life was over. There was nothing I could do except look down at the other me that was being ripped out of my body, wondering why I had spent so many weeks working on my new, radiant complexion when it was all for naught.

Luckily, the staring contest champion decided to have a change of heart and before I knew it, my rapping friend and I were saved, and just in the nick of time too.

Pein killers. The ultimate cure for any headache. >_>

From there on out, things got a little bit hectic.

People generally tell you that if you fall from a very high height, chances are that you will die a very horrible death. What they don’t realize is that it isn’t the falling that kills you, it’s when you stop falling that the problem arrives.

For us, it was a little bit different, because we were falling up instead of down, so I’m not sure how the rules would have applied there. All I know is that I didn’t want to “stop”, so I decided to put a stop to it before the stopping part happened. o_O

Luckily for me, our new emo friend was pretty smart, and he knew that the best way to stop the unstoppable was to start thinking the unthinkable. Seeing as how thinking wasn’t my strong point, and all these contradictions were giving me a headache, I just decided it was best to just nod my head like I knew what was going on and do what he told me, which seemed to work out fine in the end.

This is what the end of your life looks like.

And so, finally my day came to an end. I made new friends, learned new things about gravity, and now I’ve been told I have to write the third part to some weird novel involving dancing statues and gutted ninja. (Or was it gutsy ninja?)

The end.

Last Week’s Bubbliton Contest Winner:

The Incredible Marksman: And this is why we constantly stress chewing your food thoroughly before swallowing…. Oh, and of course, never eating crows with sharingans and abnormally large snakes. <_<

Well done to Namskram for his great entry.

Now, I am sure you’re all wondering what was up with my strange breakdown, but I suppose I just didn’t really know what else to write. There aren’t many ways I can say “this chapter was epic” without sounding like I am just stating what is already the glaringly obvious, so instead I just decided on a little parody.

That, and I had writers block, so really what I am saying is that I pulled all of this out my backside.

I hope you all enjoyed my lame sense of humor. In any case, I decided to have a debate for this week, one that best suits the subject of our latest chapter.

The Master of the Six Paths vs The Genius Prodigy of the Uchiha Clan.

As for the parameters of the debate, Nagato is in his original, younger body and Itachi is alive in his prime, with no loss of eyesight and no illnesses. The question is, who do you think would win between the two?

There won’t be a poll for the debate, because the winning combatant will be chosen according to the quality of the debate itself and the comments therein.

Good luck, and I’ll see you all in the comments. ^ ^

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~ by Tenrai Senshi on August 23, 2011.

95 Responses to “Naruto Chapter 551 Breakdown: We’re talking thriller, with lame jokes. <_<”

  1. FIRST! XD

  2. *Eats all witnesses*

  3. *eats tenrai from the inside, coz I’m just that boss*

  4. @Darks.

    Lol. Just make sure your head fits out the door when you leave. You wouldn’t want to get stuck now, would you? 😛

  5. 3rd!? DAMMIT YOU GUYS!!! 😡

    I must say I really enjoyed the breakdown, awesome job! The chapter…definitely not. There was this one hilarious part though! Did anyone catch how Kishi admitted Part 2 of Naruto was crap but just wait for Part 3!

    http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6205/96287968.png

    I mean come on, I laughed my ass off at that part! XD And Naruto’s like, “Seriosuly, thumbs up I agree!” Oh, best part of the chapter definitely.

    But what’s up with Naruto being so dumb here?

    http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5708/7b1261228fe7013de7fc4b2.png

    I mean, yeah he can be pretty dumb but usually in battle he’s smarter than this. If he pulls off a dumb move at least it’s funny or it actually works out later on. Him using the Rasengan despite having realized how utterly useless it was just a few seconds ago was just…dumb. It wasn’t funny, it wasn’t useful, it was just…dumb.

    Hmm…the trio combined attack on Chibaku Tensei was a good part of the chapter, yeah I definitely liked that.

  6. gj Tenrai and agreed with super.
    also i’m raging against the fact that more often than not we get a less than average number of pages after a week’s break.

  7. seven

    -spill7

  8. ocho!

  9. i side with my gravatar for this debate

  10. An awesome chapter deserved this awesome breakdown. Bravo!

  11. Debate.

    I side with Itachi, for no other reason than because he has Susano’o with über-hax sword and shield. And that really sucks, because I don’t feel he deserves it. Nagato outclasses him in every other way, and if Susano’o was excluded from the debate, he would easily take the win.

  12. @ Debate – Though Susano’o is Super Hax I still think we over seen its effect in this chapter, In the end Susanoo is powerful but if we take into account the 6 Paths of Pain, where Nagato could use all the techniques he used in the chapter and though the sword is awesome it would suck up the soul of the members of the paths of pain and not Nagato himself,

    If Nagato is just who he is, then that creating a moon tech should be more efffective, I mean a Tailed Beast Bomb, Rasenshuriken and the Arrows will be able to beat it but arrows by itself!

    I think if Nagato fights one on one with his youth he may be unbeatable to most except Itachi, in the end though, Nagato is more Versatile he is a 6 trick pony not a 3 trick 😉 😛

  13. pein has already proven to be susceptible to genjutsu and itachi is the best genjutsu caster in the manga minus shisui..i think he’s smart enough to find a way to trap the main body, if not all of them, in one long enough to win. plus uber hax, speed, intelligence. a true prodigy in every sense of the word.

  14. I’m rooting for pain. Nagato can have the element of surprise. Almighty pull itachi, itachi grabbed by the chameleon Nagato hid, uses one of the paths to drain his chakra so itachi can’t use his jutsu, then soul removal path. If Nagato allowed Itachi to set up then Itachi’s trump is genjutsu. Other then that, his other attacks are negated. He can all-mighty push the Amerterasu away and then pull itachi into his own flames. WIth full chakra Nagato has shown the ability to create a chibaku tensai in a matter of seconds. The sword wouldn’t be able to show up because it’s being pulled up to the chibaku tensai. The only downfall for Nagato is genjutsu. I’m saying Nagato wins because he was taught to be cunning like Jirayia-sensei, and what better way then to catch your opponent off-guard at the beginning of the match before he can pull a genjutsu on you.

    I just realized, as a result of this post, the reason Nagato sucked at genjutsu! His teacher wasn’t good at it either. And as a result Naruto also sucked at genjutsu too being taught be Jirayia. 😛

  15. @dish, he’s fast but I wouldn’t put my money on uber fast and intelligent. He said it himself, he is calm in battle. Nagato is cunning (not on Naruto’s level). Naruto, Itachi and Bee didn’t notice how Nagato summoned a Chameleon (you know, the one that trapped Naruto) and Naruto almost payed the price for it. Itachis only “hax” is his genjutsu. And I hate him because of it 😛 That’s the only why I see him winning this battle, using genjutsu :DD

  16. @ Dish – Nagato is weak against Sound Genjutsu, this is completely different to to Eye one Itachi has, thing is Rinnegan also has a Genjutsu trigger and in a sense will not be as weak as it is to sound, also it was only the paths of pain that where susceptible, we don’t know if Pain did that on purpose to pull Jiraiya into a false sense of calm since his other paths where completely un affected by the genjutsu, Since Nagato will have much more chakra control in his own body then he will in the other paths… I think his Genjutsu Resistance will be on par with the best, and who’s to say Itachi will be able to resist Nagato’s

  17. @pein, +1

  18. Why everyone is forgetting the Gedo Mazo? Gedo Mazo also seals(something like that or eat soul, but we haven’t seen the full potential or what it can do in full power, like why it can hold 9 tailed-beast, knowing that is I think a lot of power in there.) I’m not saying i’m rooting for Nagato same goes to Itachi. I love them both.. 😀

    On the side note. I wonder “IF” Sasuke is gonna have the Sword of Totsuka from Susano’o.. And what Naruto going to counter IF Sasuke does get that sword? I’m thinking that’s where FTG would come in and some other ninjutsu Minato had.

  19. Oh man, I really don’t know, I think this is just one of those debates where you can’t choose a side. Damn you Tenrai 🙂
    In my opinion every fight between them would turn out differently, with victories for both of them. Maybe it just comes down to such trivial things as the battlefield, or the weather or the bad hair day. Wait what?
    Nevermind, I’m just gonna say Nagato takes this one, because he is an Uzumaki and has therefore more chakra aka more endurance.
    So Susanoo vs Chibaku Tensei and whoever runs out of chakra first is dead, one could say.
    And @pisbolman: Gedo Mazo is kinda slow as hell if I remember correctly. I don’t know if Itachi could get caught by it. The only time it was really effective was when Nagato owned the Danzo-Hanzo alliance but they weren’t expecting something like that.

  20. A mighty awesome breakdown Tenrai. I must say, it is in the top 5 manga breakdowns of all times. O__O I really enjoyed the first person perspective in the reading. And the jokes made it that much more epic lol.

    I thoroughly enjoyed this Naruto chapter as well. Itachi, Naruto, and Bee are the ultimate Hax team. X____x

    I am siding with Itachi in this debate, only because the odds are stacked against him.

  21. “Nagato outclasses him in every other way”

    Do tell…

    In my opinion Nagato is only as powerful as his eyes allow him to be. Itachi is powerful regardless of his sharingan powers. You don’t get to be an ANBU captain at the age of 12 because of the sharingan alone…
    Itachi’s only weakness is his normal chakra reserve. And that’s all it is, normal. In no single way is Itachi weak or lacking.
    Nagato on the other hand relies completely on his Rinnegan and has shown no skill whatsoever besides the Rinnegan.
    Itachi is fast, skilled with throwable weapons, smart, cunning and on top of that a master genjutsu user.

    Oh, and people who still think the Rinnegan is insusceptible to eye genjutsu need to wake up. Not even the Sharingan is insusceptible to eye genjutsu and the sharingan is an eye built especially for eye genjutsu.

    “Nagato is more Versatile he is a 6 trick pony not a 3 trick”

    Itachi’s jutsu’s;

    Amaterasu
    Bunshin Daibakuha
    Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu
    Magen: Kyō Tenchi-ten
    Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu
    Utakata
    Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu
    Katon: Hōsenka no Jutsu
    Katon: Hōsenka Tsumabeni
    Kage Bunshin no Jutsu
    Susanoo (with the Yasaka no Magatama, the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami)
    Tsukuyomi
    Suiton: Suigadan

    Looks like more than 3 to me. ^__^

    I know Nagato knows more tricks but in terms of High level (get caught with it and you’re dead) jutsu’s they’re quite even.

  22. @ Redbaron – Nagato learnt all basic elemental jutsu when he was young, he probably learnt more but lets just remain at basic. So all elemental attacks i.e fire balls,water jets etc can be easily countered with a water based jutsu or which ever element is strong against water… I wanna say lightning but that was pokemon 😉 … The others are pretty much his fortay in Genjutsu, Shadow Clone however we don’t know how many he can actually do since his chakra is not haxed like Sasuke, Naruto etc, So in a sense in effective high level jutsu I give him his 3 ocular abilities, and even so MS has a much harsher effect on Itachi since his Chakra is not on par with Uzumaki…

  23. Hey guys,first pics of spoiler came out:http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/72098-Naruto-552-Spoiler-Pics-and-Summaries

  24. @Redbaron

    The J-man said it himself. Nagato learned every single mainstream jutsu from all five chakra elements by the time he was 11 years old or so. Now, going from a kid with no prior ninja teachings at all, to learning and mastering all known mainstream jutsu in little over a year, is definitely not what I would call “lacking”, nor does it suggest that he only relies on the Rinnegan. To me, it also shows that as far as genius is concerned, Nagato is on par with, if not ahead of Itachi. Itachi may have been an anbu at a young age, but Nagato learned more in 1 year than Itachi did in many years, and with no prior experience as a ninja as well.

    But, to be honest, if you have a strength like the Rinnegan, why not use it? If you look back at all of Itachi’s battles, he almost always prioritises his use of the Sharingan over any other abilities. In fact, it is rare to ever see him using any other jutsu that aren’t part of his sharingan arsenal. Why? Because it’s a strength and he would be pretty stupid not to play to his own strengths. Trying to degrade Nagato for doing the same with the rinnegan is not a logical argument against him at all.

    Anyway, let’s get down to the nitty gritty. Firstly, there is the issue of Genjutsu, which is what every Itachi supporter scurries to for an “instant win no jutsu” argument.

    Here is what we know. During the battle between Sasuke and Itachi, Zetsu mentioned that Sasuke was able to overcome Tsukyomi thanks to the strength of his eyes and that having more powerful eyes allowed him to undo its effects without sustaining any psychological damage, despite him not having the MS himself. Zetsu also mentioned that a master with a stone can beat a novice with a shuriken, or something like that, and that the MS, like anything else, is just a ninja tool that is only as effective as its user.

    This suggests that the key to breaking Tsukyomi is not only limited to having the MS, as Itachi originally suggested, but rather to be able to overpower it with more powerful eyes than the caster. We know that as far as Doujutsu are concerned, the Rinnegan is said to be the strongest of the three great doujutsu, so there is a good chance Tsukyomi wouldn’t even work on Nagato at all if, especially if all he needs to do to break free from it is to have more powerful eyes than Itachi. The fact that Itachi didn’t even try to use genjutsu against Nagato in this latest battle also says a lot.

    That leaves the rest of Itachi’s arsenal to fall back on and in terms of Ninjutsu, Nagato has a big advantage. All he needs to do is use jutsu with an elemental advantage against any Itachi uses. Amatarasu can be pushed away by Shinra Tensei, as has been shown, and just about any other jutsu can quite easily be absorbed by preta path’s powers. Using taijutsu is also risky for Itachi as well because he could have all the chakra absorbed out of his own body in seconds if he comes near Nagato.

    This pretty much leaves Susanoo as the single greatest threat to Nagato and one of the few jutsu Itachi has that we know for certain will work on him – and I can admit, it is a great threat indeed. However, one could also say that Nagato’s Chibaku Tensei is an effective counter to Susanoo, so even that isn’t a sure winner.

    Ultimately, it comes down to how well Itachi plays his cards and how well he reserves his chakra during the battle to use his MS techs without exhausting himself. I’m not saying Itachi can’t beat Nagato, because I wouldn’t have put them in a debate together if I didn’t think it was a good match, but I also don’t think the typical “Susanoo/Tsukyomi” arguments will work this time without a lot of back-up to help their cause.

  25. raw scans: http://mangahead.com/Manga-Raw-Scan/Naruto/Naruto-552-Raw-Scan

  26. manga head: http://mangahead.com/index.php/Manga-English-Scan/Naruto/Naruto-552-English-Scan/01.jpg?action=big&size=original&fromthumbnail=true

  27. it’s out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552

  28. First to announce at last!!! LOL 😀

  29. Oh my…I never would have said this before but…THANK GOD FOR ITACHI!!!

    “Leave everything to me!”

    “Leave everything to Naruto!”

    “Naruto is our saviour! The Destined Child of Love, Happiness, and all that is GOOD! Leave everything to him!!!”

    Itachi: ‘STFU and stop being arrogant!’

    ………………………………………………….

    Me: “YES! You don’t want to turn into Sasuke do you soooo STFU and go save the world plz and thank you.” ^_^

    Lol, and then he said he failed when trying to help Sasuke! Oh you think!? Your lesson of hate, vengence, and power wasn’t good for the lad!? Whou woulda thought Mr. Genius? D:

  30. I’m glad it was Itachi who knocked Naruto of his high horse. I think it took someone as strong as Itachi to humble Naruto. I hope Itachi becomes one of Naruto’s advisors after the war is over (the other being Skimararu and Lee 😀 )

  31. I really enjoyed that chapter. It had a lot of feeling in it and I was glad that Itachi used speach no jutsu.

    It was a very deep moment to see Naruto see what path he was walking down without realising it. I understand Naruto’s point of view because everyone has basically dropped everything on his shoulders and he feels it is all his responsibility, but he needed someone to show him what Itachi just did, so that he could understand the need to have faith in his friends as well.

    And Itachi’s words hold more weight because he lived through what he was describing. He tried to do things alone and it only caused him and others heartache. The same could be said for Madara, because he also did the same, acquiring power even turning his eyes from his own brother until everything fell apart for the Uchiha. By trying to help his clan, he ultimately destroyed it.

    I guess it all comes back to that first lesson from Kakashi in part one, about teamwork and caring for your friends. Kishi pulled it off this chapter really well.

    I also think Bee is awesome. He’s such a friendly and supportive guy and he’s willing to go so far for who he sees as a friend as well. I think he makes a great mentor for Naruto and I am enjoying their growing friendship. Bee is definitely one of my favorite characters now. He has earned plenty of awesome points. @___@

    Last, but not least, we may finally see what was in that last coffin!!!

  32. Did anyone notice BEE DIDN”T RAPPPPP. I Repeat BEE DIDN’t RAP. It must mean the END is near.

    Other than that it was a great chapter, I too feel a lot better now that Itachi gave Naruto a final lesson in growing up like a true hero and I’m a bit confused about the bird.

    At least give the eye to Kakashi if anything, not destroy it for good, thus allowing Itachi a Permanent Ems in his left eye. Well it is what it is.

  33. Oh yeah, we also got a great piece of info in this chapter regarding Nagato’s lack of speed and mobility, a drawback we may use from now on in debates regarding his original body.

    I still think he’s greater this way then the six paths, but even greater would have been a young Nagato, just as he was before being sealed by Itachi just now, only with six strong paths like Madara’s. Thus resulting in a compensation for his weak points.

  34. “The J-man said it himself. Nagato learned every single mainstream jutsu from all five chakra elements by the time he was 11 years old or so. Now, going from a kid with no prior ninja teachings at all, to learning and mastering all known mainstream jutsu in little over a year, is definitely not what I would call “lacking”, nor does it suggest that he only relies on the Rinnegan.”

    And the only reason he was able to do so was because of the Rinnegan just as Jiraiya said. The only thing you can grant Nagato is the fact that he learned to fully use the Rinnegans potential. Although it’s likely that it’s Madara’s who is responsible for that.

    As for Itachi only using his sharingan. Please explain him using shurikens against Nagato’s summons. Or did he throw those with his eyes…
    Nagato only uses the Rinnegan. Itachi has shown numerous times he can fight regardless of his sharingan. The sharingan just adds to his fighting power. So to say Itachi only uses the sharingan is just dumb.

    Now for the genjutsu. What we also know is that Itachi in no way wanted to defeat Sasuke when they fought. You assume Sasuke has more powerful eyes because Zetsu said so. Well, Zetsu also said with Susano’o Itachi was practically invincible. So which one is it, can Itachi be beaten or is he invincible…
    I assume Itachi’s eyes are more powerful than Sasuke’s and he was more skilled at using them. Why? Because first of all Madara said Sasuke would have died if Itachi was serious and second of all because Itachi was able to keep his sharingan activated at all times using very little chakra whereas Sasuke couldn’t.

    So, as for any other debate, Tsukuyomi is win.

    As for the new chapter. I was surprised to see Itachi is allowed to ‘live’. It will be interesting to see how Kabuto tries to defend against him now.

  35. sorry for the triple post, but just as Naruto arrives at the kage fight I hope we get to see more of the 3rd raikage and the 2 mizukage. It’s only now that we get to see Naruto and Bee truly perform with knowledge and might at the same time.

    I hope we get to see a great battle, even if it’s short, I hope it will be really entertaining and worth the wait. After all it’s a fight between 5 kages and the strongest jinchuriki also a army backing then up.

    i’ll see Bee tacking the lead with the Miazukage and Raikage, while Naruto takes on Muu. It’s sure gonna be dramatic moment between Bee and the Raikage next time.

  36. @ Red, I mostly agree with what you say, but keep in mind Nagato has the asura path for the robotic like arms and legs witch can also be used as long range weapons as we’ve seen a more then one instance.

    So it’s not that Nagato doesn’t use weapons, he already has everything he needs thanks to the rinnegan. Itachi was brought up relaying on every tool and skill he could master even with the sharingan at his disposal.

    The the most important aspect about all this is the fact that Itachi was aware of his fading eyesight and took precautions to bee prepared in any situation, sharingan or not, Nagato has unlimited use of his eyes with are always activated and see a great deal of things, things not even aforded to the sharingan.

    I would say the only difference between the two lies in the experience and battle strategy the developed across the years.

    Of both shinobi would be in a immortal fight (edo tensei) Itachi would have the edge, because he has no restrictions on his jutsus, jutsus normally limited by his body and eyesight.

    On the other hand, if both shinobi were alive and prone to there usual drawbacks Nagato would surely have the advantage.

  37. @Redbaron

    Lol. I knew you would provide some resistance. @__@

    “And the only reason he was able to do so was because of the Rinnegan just as Jiraiya said. The only thing you can grant Nagato is the fact that he learned to fully use the Rinnegans potential. Although it’s likely that it’s Madara’s who is responsible for that.”

    Yes, it was the Rinnegan that allowed Nagato to use all five elements, but the Rinnegan didn’t teach him HOW to use them or the jutsu associated with them. If you want to presume that much, then I could just as easily presume that Itachi only learned all the jutsu he knows thanks to copying them with the Sharingan (AKA, shortcut no jutsu) and then where would that leave your argument, hm?

    “As for Itachi only using his sharingan. Please explain him using shurikens against Nagato’s summons. Or did he throw those with his eyes…”

    I said, and I quote, “he (Itachi) almost always prioritises his use of the Sharingan over any other abilities”. I never said he never used other abilities, so I am not sure where you got that whole paragraph from. Please read my comments more carefully.

    “Nagato only uses the Rinnegan.”

    So, to turn the tables on you, please explain him using chakra rods, or the Fuuton jutsu he used against Jiraiya. 😛

    “Now for the genjutsu. What we also know is that Itachi in no way wanted to defeat Sasuke when they fought. You assume Sasuke has more powerful eyes because Zetsu said so.”

    I am not assuming anything, just stating that even if Itachi let Sasuke break from his genjutsu, that doesn’t change the rules of how he broke free, nor the theory behind being able to break through Tsukyomi using more powerful eyes. Zetsu wouldn’t have suggested it if it wasn’t practical, and he has been shown to have a keen analytically mind.

    “Well, Zetsu also said with Susano’o Itachi was practically invincible. So which one is it, can Itachi be beaten or is he invincible…””

    “Practically” does not = “absolutely”. There is a difference in that the former suggests possible weaknesses. Weaknesses, that Itachi has confirmed exist with his own words when he said “Every jutsu has a weakness, there are no exceptions.” Need I also remind you that Itachi only managed to escape from Nagato’s Chibaku Tensei thanks to the help from Naruto and Bee? I didn’t see Susanoo getting him out of that situation alone, which already shows that it can be beaten.

    “I assume Itachi’s eyes are more powerful than Sasuke’s and he was more skilled at using them. Why? Because first of all Madara said Sasuke would have died if Itachi was serious and second of all because Itachi was able to keep his sharingan activated at all times using very little chakra whereas Sasuke couldnt.”

    You left out one part of the equation though. The cursed seal. Sasuke only broke through Tsukyomi after buffing his power with the cursed seal level 2, which momentarily made his eyes more powerful than Itachi’s. We already know that the cursed seal increases the users power by many times, so it stands to reason it would have given Sasuke an edge in breaking genjutsu.

    Whether Itachi intended for that to happen or not is questionable, but it happened nonetheless. I would, however, agree that at the time, under normal circumstances, Itachi’s eyes would have been more powerful, but that still doesn’t change the fact that Sasuke did break through Itachi’s Tsukyomi and that you can only, at best, assume that Itachi “let” it happen without being able to confirm it for certain.

  38. WOW. I cannot believe I missed out on 3 totally awesome chapters and now THIS (552). Really! Reading all 4 chapters collectively is just too much to handle.

    @Breakdown: LOL. Great Breakdown Tenrai, for something you “pulled out of your backside”. lol 😀

    Regarding the latest chapter, I have never liked Itachi more than I normally do than in this chapter and if there was any possible way of doing so, I’d write him a letter, heart stickers and all, and would go someway along these lines:

    Dear Itachi,
    No amount of words could fully describe what you did in this chapter. Seriously, Thank you. If you could step out of the manga and out onto the real world for even 5 minutes, I would be at the front lines along with thousands of other fans to shower you with praises and thanks for giving Naruto the gift of Talk-no-Jutsu, shutting him up, dragging his ass back down to earth and and forcing him to realize things other people (i.e. Iruka) have already told him. I would personally give you my entire inheritance but then again you have no need for worldly possessions, since you’re dead and are about to die before our eyes a second time in just a few chapters down the road.
    So what to give? I cannot in good conscience give you absolute fangirlism since I did not, still don’t and will never approve nor admire you for messing up your brother’s head so much so that no amount of therapy could put him to rights. So how about 70% fangirlism? Again, thank you for saying everything that needed to be said since our favorite knuckle-headed ninja, who seems to be missing the big picture as of late, only listens to Men of Proven Strength, something he must’ve gotten from your equally knuckle-headed brother.
    Your 70% fan,
    Orange

  39. I admit, I made some comments about how I thought Naruto wasn’t being egotistical. And Itachi has changed my mind about it. They’ve clearly taught Naruto a lesson here. Itachi is awesomeness.

  40. @orange

    Giving Itachi a little bit too much praise, aren’t we?

    The only reason he was able to say what he did to Naruto was because he himself made the same mistakes he is trying to help Naruto avoid. Yet, everyone is making him out to be this perfectly awesome character who can’t be faulted, when he really isn’t.

    He is just as flawed as any other character, to be honest. He talks big, but ultimately, he did exactly what he was warning Naruto not to do, and that fact cannot be changed.

    I honestly don’t see why everyone tries to condemn one character for making a mistake (Naruto) and then praise another character even though they already made that same mistake and died without being able to take responsibility for its consequences (Itachi). It seems like a contradiction to me.

    P.S. I am glad you enjoyed the breakdown. @___@

  41. AWESOM CHAP

  42. *sigh*

    @Tenrai:

    I never said that Itachi can’t be faulted, thus the 70% thing. The -30% stems from the fact that I hate him for what he did to his brother in spite of all the explanations, all the assurance from the manga itself that what he did, he did out of love. I still believe to this day that it would’ve been better if he just killed Sasuke instead of subjecting him to severe psychological trauma (What idiot would praise him for that ?) that no kid should have had to endure. I repeat, I DID NOT, STILL DON’T and WILL NEVER approve nor admire him for it.

    I was just absolutely grateful that someone knocked some sense into Naruto. Ever since the whole prophecy thing, he’s gotten so side-tracked that I don’t think he fully understands that this war isn’t simply a war to protect him, that people aren’t dying merely for his sake.

    As to condemning Naruto, I’m not one of those people. I just wanted him to wake up really, really badly from assuming that he has to do everything alone. What I find ironic though is that now that there are more people who acknowledge him, respect him, love him and would take a bullet for him in a heartbeat, he seems to be more alone than ever. It may be fanciful but I wanted him to think of this whole ordeal as something akin to a relay race. He’d be standing at the last leg of the race and would ultimately be the one to cross the finish line but that he wouldn’t have gotten there without the other players. That makes it all the more frustrating that he keeps harping on about ending the war by himself.

    Itachi was the best possible person to have gotten Naruto to truly listen and understand. Had it been any other person, would it have carried as much weight? No, I don’t think so. His first-hand experience on the matter, deplorable as they stand, proved invaluable in getting the message across to Naruto. Do I think that my gratitude towards Itachi was fully justified? Absolutely. I believe that that moment right there was a pivotal one for Naruto and that it would make all the difference in the world when the time comes to face “Madara”.

    I am not/was not absolving him from what he did to his brother, his family and his clan but I can see why my mock letter would’ve been misunderstood. I did say that I read all 4 chapters in one go so I guess I really couldn’t suppress the fangirl mode that much (70% of it, that is). Mea maxima culpa. And honestly, after seeing such a glorious fight, it really got on my nerves that Naruto was once again prattling on about him ending things. Way to kill the mood man!!

  43. An interesting revelation: What if Itachi is going to fight Kabuto’s trump card?

  44. @Orange.

    Okay. Lol. Fangirl mode away! O____O

  45. I bet Kabuto’s trump card is crashing the Kazekage’s party right now, and I bet his trump card is Minato =P

  46. @iamnot: Minato is sealed away in the the death god’s belly, but wouldn’t it be interesting if Kabuto found a way around that…

  47. @IANRH

    That was definitely Naruto’s hand in Kyuubi chakra mode. Or at least, that is definitely what it looked like. So I don’t expect to see Minato making it into this war.

    I do, however, believe that whatever the trump card is, Itachi may be the first to battle it. @___@

  48. @Tenrai Senshi- I dunno they could have just been woosh marks rather than Kyuubi chakra mode swishes, but only time will tell =P

  49. so itachi’s gonna take care of edo tensei, and he has a plan. guessing he’ll try to make kabuto undo it with the sharingan? i feel like that’s how kabuto told madara he could be stopped

  50. @IANRH

    The thing is, Kabuto told Madara that Minato couldn’t be resurected, because of the reaper death seal. And he told Madara that after he showed him who was in the mystery coffin.

    I think that confirms that, at the very least, Minato is not the person who was in the mystery coffin. Now, whether the mystery coffin is the trump card Kabuto was referring to or not is another story, but I have a feeling it might be.

  51. I know who’s in the mystery casket… The Death God!!

  52. “Yes, it was the Rinnegan that allowed Nagato to use all five elements”

    That’s where it leaves my argument. I just want to correct you on one thing. The Rinnegan enables a user to manipulate all 6! elements.

    “I said, and I quote, “he (Itachi) almost always prioritises his use of the Sharingan over any other abilities”. I never said he never used other abilities, so I am not sure where you got that whole paragraph from. Please read my comments more carefully.”

    But you made it look like Itachi relies on the Sharingan just like Nagato when I said Nagato only uses the Rinnegan.

    So, to turn the tables on you, please explain him using chakra rods, or the Fuuton jutsu he used against Jiraiya. 😛

    And turn back to you, chakra rods are a product of the Gedo Mazo summon.
    Now I wonder… What does one need to link to the Gedo Mazo again?… Oh yeah! The Rinnegan.
    Same rules apply for his Fuuton jutsu. Others spent years mastering one nature element manipulation (only Naruto with his 1000 clones can do it faster) but Nagato masters all 6 elements in one year. Yeah, that’s obviously the result of hard work, intense training and the immense talent Nagato had and is in no way related to the Rinnegan whatsoever.

    No sarcasm intended… Honest!… OK maybe a little,… OK it was all sarcasm. >__>

    “You left out one part of the equation though. The cursed seal. Sasuke only broke through Tsukyomi after buffing his power with the cursed seal level 2, which momentarily made his eyes more powerful than Itachi’s.”

    With that logic Sasuke would have broken free immediately after activating the cursed seal. Once a shinobi breaks the genjutsu with added chakra the genjutsu stops. What we saw however was Itachi taking his eye, Sasuke activating the cursed seal and Itachi reaching for his second eye. Then the genjutsu stopped.
    Not right after Sasuke activated the cursed seal and increased his chakra and power.

    “Whether Itachi intended for that to happen or not is questionable, but it happened nonetheless. I would, however, agree that at the time, under normal circumstances, Itachi’s eyes would have been more powerful, but that still doesn’t change the fact that Sasuke did break through Itachi’s Tsukyomi and that you can only, at best, assume that Itachi “let” it happen without being able to confirm it for certain.”

    That works both ways. If one can’t be certain whether Itachi ended the technique then one can’t be certain Sasuke broke free from it and therefor there is no proof Sasuke was able to overcome the Tsukuyomi. That seriously hurts the already slim chance of a Rinnegan, a non genjutsu eye, to see through or break the Tsukuyomi.

    Furthermore, I would like to add the Amaterasu to this discussion. It’s being cast aside with the “Shinra Tensei or Deva Path will just deal with that.”
    But will that suffice? During their bout in chapter 550 Nagato didn’t just Shinra Tensei or Deva Path Amaterasu out of the way. In fact if he wasn’t an Edo Tensei summon that would have been the end for him. So can the Deva Path handle the Amaterasu that ignites ON the body in stead of in front or around? I don’t think so. Every time we see the Deva path be used it’s some force field if you will around the user that sucks up surrounding chakra. That wouldn’t do much good against Amaterasu.

    As for Shinra Tensei, I don’t think I’ll have to elaborate on that. When Nagato gets hit with the flames no amount of shinra tensei-ing will save his scorned ass.

    So the way I see it, Itachi can use either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. It all depends on the mood he’s in I guess. Nagato’s Chibaku Tensei won’t be fast enough those techniques.

    OK…. Now I need to lie down… Post… Too long….

  53. @Tenrai Senshi- and we all know Kabuto is the pinnacle of boy scouts and would never lie to someone he considers a threat to his plans. Also it could be Jiraya as well even though Kabuto also said he couldn’t retrieve his body, Though see above statement.

    No I don’t think his trump card is the 6th coffin, though that is a trump card of a sort. I think it almost has to be something that Madara doesn’t know about. Something that he can’t plan for in any way shape or form.

    Also if that rasengan was in fact Naruto’s then why did he only show the hand and the jutsu? Instead of actually just showing us Naruto diving into battle? Kabuto has also implied that his Trump card is a jutsu, this happened shortly after he showed Madara Edo Tensei and how it is done. Can’t remember exactly where that is in the manga though. This is what makes me think that he has improved on the Edo Tensei, and has the ability to resurrect people like Minato.

    This is however only a theory and as such it could easily be wrong. The hand and Rasengan could also be a part of a genjutsu too, just to throw that out there.

  54. @ianrt: the hand is obviously that of Konohamaru…

  55. @arpotu- I considered that possibility, but determined that the rasengan was too big compared to the hand to be konohamaru, besides I don’t think he would be much help in that particular situation.

  56. @ianrt: well, he *did* take out one of the Pein’s solo with a rasengan; And I totally expect Kishi (or publisher) to release a sequel where he’s a main protagonist. Wonder if he has more tricks up his sleeve…?

    Now, I’m just joking, cause I can see no way for him to have So6P mode – at least not yet…

  57. I hope to whatever god any of you pray to that Kabuto’s trump card is the person in the coffin. I think it’s Bruce Lee!!!

  58. @thelaughingwiseman- Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris

    Fact: Ichigo didn’t defeat Aizen, all he did was create a curtain of darkness which allowed Chuck Norris to swoop in to deliver the final blow then leave unseen… (yes I realize I am referencing Bleach here but I thought it was humorous in any case)

  59. The mystery casket is….. BARNEY!!!!!!!

  60. @RedBaron

    “But you made it look like Itachi relies on the Sharingan just like Nagato when I said Nagato only uses the Rinnegan.”

    People see what they want to see, but my words can’t be changed. In any case, Itachi does rely on the Sharingan. He uses it constantly in battle and he always has it active. It augments his taijutsu, ninjutsu and even genjutsu, by allowing him to track enemy movements, read them or by allowing him to cast his own jutsu on them.

    Even if throwing a kunai doesn’t require the sharingan to perform, using the sharingan while throwing a kunai does make it more effective. So, the fact remains that the Sharingan is at the forefront of Itachi’s arsenal and is an ability that harmonizes with every other ability he uses. Thus, you could say that the sharingan is related to every other jutsu he uses.

    And please note, I am not saying this is a weakness, it is actually a strength. What I don’t understand is why you are trying to disprove Nagato’s strength by saying he relies on the rinnegan, when in fact, that is what makes him stronger, just like Itachi relying on the Sharingan makes him stronger. Both of them would be idiots not to use that strength.

    “And turn back to you, chakra rods are a product of the Gedo Mazo summon. Now I wonder… What does one need to link to the Gedo Mazo again?… Oh yeah! The Rinnegan. Same rules apply for his Fuuton jutsu. Others spent years mastering one nature element manipulation (only Naruto with his 1000 clones can do it faster) but Nagato masters all 6 elements in one year. Yeah, that’s obviously the result of hard work, intense training and the immense talent Nagato had and is in no way related to the Rinnegan whatsoever.”

    If you want to put off all of Nagato’s jutsu to his Rinnegan, even the elemental jutsu he uses, that is fine. However, I would like to remind you that your original purpose of that argument on your part was to try disprove Nagato’s lack of diversity. Now you are just confirming that he is, in fact, very diverse, even correcting me that he can manipulate 6 elements and not just five, which means you lost track of the original purpose of your argument. At the end of the day, whether Nagato’s multitude of jutsu at his disposal are a result of the Rinnegan or not, that still doesn’t change the fact that as far as ninjutsu is concerned, he is far more diverse than Itachi is. That’s the bottom line.

    And if you want to say that it’s only thanks to the Rinnegan, then I can just say that Itachi’s strength is largely thanks to his Sharingan and I can easily prove it with manga references. Either way, it wouldn’t actually matter, because this is a battle debate, not a “who trained harder” debate, and a battle is based on the power the combatants have, not how they acquired it.

    “With that logic Sasuke would have broken free immediately after activating the cursed seal. Once a shinobi breaks the genjutsu with added chakra the genjutsu stops. What we saw however was Itachi taking his eye, Sasuke activating the cursed seal and Itachi reaching for his second eye. Then the genjutsu stopped.”

    Actually, he did break free immediately after activating his cursed seal level two (Note, I was specifically referring to the second level of the cursed seal in my previous comment as well), which proves my logic to be correct. Here’s a link for you.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/08/

    Note, on this page you see the cursed seal marks begin to envelope Sasuke’s body completely. Please take notice of how the last panel specifically focuses on it moving towards his eye. On the next page, he is in his complete Cursed Seal level 2 transformation and immediately, Tsukyomi is broken.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/09/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/10/

    There is my proof, and it is irrefutable. Now, as for the logic I apply to why Nagato can break Tsukyomi as well…

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/15/

    Note, Zetsu says that all he needs is more skill and more power. Basically, the power of one’s eyes and the skill with which they use them can determine whether or not one can break free from Itachi’s genjutsu. Seeing as how Nagato has the Rinnegan, and has shown great power in using it, and considering it is said to be the strongest of the three great doujutsu, I think that goes a long way in proving the logic behind my argument is definitely plausible.

    “That works both ways. If one can’t be certain whether Itachi ended the technique then one can’t be certain Sasuke broke free from it and therefor there is no proof Sasuke was able to overcome the Tsukuyomi. That seriously hurts the already slim chance of a Rinnegan, a non genjutsu eye, to see through or break the Tsukuyomi.”

    As I said, I was basing my argument on Zetsu’s analysis of the situation. His words indicate that it is the power of ones eyes, not just the eye type. Originally, it was also believed that the normal sharingan couldn’t even overcome Tsukyomi, and that was just disproved. It also suggests that it is merely the power of ones eyes, and not just the eye type, that determines the outcome. I’ve shown that with the above links, so my argument is valid. There are also other examples that prove this, such as Deidara’s ability to see through Sasuke’s genjutsu simply by training his left eye to do so. Deidara doesn’t even have a doujutsu and yet he was able to train a normal eye to be able to see through genjutsu from the Sharingan.

    “Furthermore, I would like to add the Amaterasu to this discussion. It’s being cast aside with the “Shinra Tensei or Deva Path will just deal with that.” But will that suffice? During their bout in chapter 550 Nagato didn’t just Shinra Tensei or Deva Path Amaterasu out of the way. In fact if he wasn’t an Edo Tensei summon that would have been the end for him. So can the Deva Path handle the Amaterasu that ignites ON the body in stead of in front or around? I don’t think so.”

    You need to remember that Nagato was being controlled. We have seen in most of these past battles that Edo Tensei summons are not really concerned with any damage they sustain from enemy attacks. Hell, they don’t even try to avoid them. Edo Tensei Nagato being burned by Amatarasu does not prove he can’t avoid or repel it. In fact, the fact that he just sat on top of a burning overgrown pigeon waiting for the flames to consume him, when he had time to react, shows that there was no interest in avoiding it.

    Secondly, you are also discounting Nagato’s mobility, of which he had none in this latest battle. He was pretty much a sitting duck during the entire battle thanks to his legs, but if we are having a battle with a healthy Nagato, that wouldn’t be the case. Amatarasu can be avoided, or repelled, or even blocked. If Gaara’s sand can block it, then the shield that animal path can summon (which was used against Jiraiya) can just as easily block it as well.

    I have proven how both Tsukyomi and Amatarasu can be countered now, and I already stated before that Chibaku Tensei is a good enough counter for Susanoo. If you really want, we can throw in Gedo Mazo as a good counter for Susanoo as well, because I doubt it will save Itachi from a spiritual attack that would suck his soul right out of him.

    In any case, that’s me for now. Sorry if the post was a bit long. ^ ^

  61. Wow, that was a long post. <_<

  62. Fatality!

  63. Quick question: I may be wrong and I also don’t believe the6th coffin to be Minato, but why couldn’t he be summoned? It’s not like Orochimaru kinda summoned him against sarutobi, huh?
    @chapter: I really loved Itachi’s speech and the focus on Naruto’s friends( did anyone notice Gai and Lee’s faces? *grin*)…
    BUT SERIOUSLY? Isn’t anyone here even slightly pissed that Itachi ans Sasuke won’t meet!!!
    Come on we all know Itachi is going to die in the next few chapters, he fullfilled his purpose but wby the hell should Sasuke now listen to Naruto more than the last time they met?
    There are few things left Sasuke really cares about and one of those things is his most precious person: his brother!
    Oh and the worst thing is the half-assed reason Itachi gives: Because he screwed up doing things alone he won’t see his brother and and let Naruto do things alone? WTHEeeellll!!!

    ……..Ahem, anyway…. rant mode is off so you can come out now
    Oh and if the two should meet… That was my sister right now I thought I should warn you she does those kind of things … A lot.

    And @ debate: I just want to throw out there that Nagato would have been killed by Amaterasu but he wasn’t due to the fact that he was, well immortal and all. I don’t think Nagato moves all that well because he just never had to. In just this short fight with Itachi he was hit several times by Itachi with Amaterasu and Susanoo.

  64. “Itachi does rely on the Sharingan. He uses it constantly in battle and he always has it active. It augments his taijutsu, ninjutsu and even genjutsu, by allowing him to track enemy movements, read them or by allowing him to cast his own jutsu on them.”

    Did I ever say he didn’t?

    “If you want to put off all of Nagato’s jutsu to his Rinnegan, even the elemental jutsu he uses, that is fine. However, I would like to remind you that your original purpose of that argument on your part was to try disprove Nagato’s lack of diversity.”

    Was it? I think it was to prove Nagato was only as powerful as he was because of the Rinnegan. Which you obviously can’t deny.

    “And if you want to say that it’s only thanks to the Rinnegan, then I can just say that Itachi’s strength is largely thanks to his Sharingan and I can easily prove it with manga references.”

    There’s a difference between only and largely, don’t you agree?

    “There is my proof, and it is irrefutable. ”

    So is my proof, or do you think Madara was lying when he said Sasuke would have died if Itachi was serious?
    And let’s not forget Zetsu admitting Itachi wasn’t even close to his usual self in terms of power and reflexes.

    “Note, Zetsu says that all he needs is more skill and more power. Basically, the power of one’s eyes and the skill with which they use them can determine whether or not one can break free from Itachi’s genjutsu. Seeing as how Nagato has the Rinnegan, and has shown great power in using it, and considering it is said to be the strongest of the three great doujutsu, I think that goes a long way in proving the logic behind my argument is definitely plausible.”

    Zetsu specifically mentions the Sharingan, not eyes in general. Yes the Rinnegan is the most powerful doujutsu in the manga but in terms of genjutsu we all know the sharingan is the best. The Rinnegan gives the user abilities of the Sage of the Six Paths, that’s why it’s the most powerful doujutsu.

    “Originally, it was also believed that the normal sharingan couldn’t even overcome Tsukyomi, and that was just disproved.”

    No, originally Itachi said only a true Uchiha could defend against his Mangekyou. In fact, Itachi never said only the Mangekyou would be able to counter him. He only told Sasuke that without the Mangekyou Sasuke didn’t stand a chance. And that’s true.

    “There are also other examples that prove this, such as Deidara’s ability to see through Sasuke’s genjutsu simply by training his left eye to do so. Deidara doesn’t even have a doujutsu and yet he was able to train a normal eye to be able to see through genjutsu from the Sharingan.”

    That was against a regular sharingan genjutsu, not against the Tsukuyomi or as Zetsu called it, the most powerful Genjutsu.

    “Secondly, you are also discounting Nagato’s mobility, of which he had none in this latest battle. He was pretty much a sitting duck during the entire battle thanks to his legs, but if we are having a battle with a healthy Nagato, that wouldn’t be the case.”

    Nagato was never a fast Ninja. Itachi, however, is.

    “Amatarasu can be avoided, or repelled, or even blocked. If Gaara’s sand can block it, then the shield that animal path can summon (which was used against Jiraiya) can just as easily block it as well.”

    Sur, but there is only one problem. If Nagato uses the animal paths summons to block Amaterasu the summons are done for. And it’s not like Itachi can only use Amaterasu once. Without a shield Nagato can’t defend against Amaterasu. The flames ignite on target so Shinra Tensei is useless and Deva Path only absorbs surrounding chakra.

    “I have proven how both Tsukyomi and Amatarasu can be countered now”

    No you haven’t. You’ve given your assumptions. You’ve got no proof Nagato can defend against ‘the ultimate genjutsu’ or the ‘ultimate ninjutsu’.

    “and I already stated before that Chibaku Tensei is a good enough counter for Susanoo.”

    Were it not for the fact that Chibaku Tensei takes some time to create. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi do not.

    “If you really want, we can throw in Gedo Mazo as a good counter for Susanoo as well, because I doubt it will save Itachi from a spiritual attack that would suck his soul right out of him.”

    Oh yes please do, that will do wonders to Nagato’s already impressive speed. ^__^

    How easy do you want to make it for Susano’o to drive the Totsuka sword through Nagato. And what does that sword do? Hey, let’s ask Orochimaru about that. >__>

    @ thelaughingwiseman,

    Fatality? That word doesn’t exist in my vocabulary.

  65. BTW, anyone else who keeps reading Tortuga when the Totsuka sword is mentioned?…. Anyone?… No?

    Well, what can I say. It’s a pirates life for me.

    @ dmaxx3d,

    Minato sealed himself in the God of Death when he used the Shiki Fuin. There’s no coming back from that… sadly enough. *Sniff, sniff*

    Kabutorochimaru specifically mentioned souls that have been sealed can not be ressurected.

  66. I wouldn’t write off an Itachi/Sasuke meeting just yet. After all, Madara might bring Sasuke out in front of Itachi, in order to protect his Kabuto wild card.

  67. @redbaron: In regards to Chibaku Tensai vs Susano and Amerterasu vs Shenri Tensi and the Genjutsu’s effectiveness;

    In Amerturasu vs Shenri Tensi (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/15).
    Fact, Nagato can repel the Eternal Black Flames.
    Fact, Nagato had control of his own body when he was hit by Itachi (It was not Itachi’s speed that caught Nagato in Amerterasu). Nagato recognized Itachi was not under control anymore. Like any other revived being during the war, with a conscience, he allowed himself to be beaten. (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/8) . There is no proof what-so ever that shows Itachi can touch Nagato if Nagato were to use Shenri Tensi before Itachi’s attack. No proof. Nagato (conscious) allowed himself to get hit.
    If your looking for another reason I think Nagato would beat Itachis Eternal Black flames is because that other path power of absorbing Ninjutsu (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c377/9.html). That jutsu Jirayia made was of fire and oil. So yeah I think it can handle any ninjutsu. There is no proof that the Eternal Black Flames can overcome that jutsu but there is proof that this path can absorb ninjutsu (even a rasen-shuriken).

    Chibaku Tensi vs Susano’o
    Nagato in full power (or almost close to it, who knows) was able to conjure the ball pretty quickly. I am going to show you the page where he starts creating the ball and you decide how slow it is to create (remember Nagato is in full power or close, we don’t know.) http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/24027713/10 . On the next page Nagato would have thrown the ball in the air. I don’t know about you, but that is pretty quick. In the heat of a battle and with the “fast” Itachi to see what Nagato is up to at hand. So, now that is were another fact comes about. Chibaku Tensi can not be stopped alone by Susano’o. Itachi Acknowledged that fact (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/24027713/13). They all (Itachi, Killer Bee in 8-tails form and Naruto in KM chakra) had to use their strongest long range attacks to destroy it (Not Susano’o alone). So that means the sword of Totuska is not long range (or else Itachi would have just pierced Nagato from where he was without worrying about that black ball that’s pulling at him).
    Back in the fight against Naruto, there were a lot of externalities. Nagato had exhausted his chakra (fighting the 6 tailed Kyubii) and he was using another body and he was trying to get closer to reach a better signal to create it. Fact, he was not at full power or near it when he tried to create the chibaku tensi. But he was (or close to it) against these three people.

    Nagato’s speed:
    You also have to realize Nagato might not have been that mobile because he was not that mobile to begin with in this fight (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/73913037/3). Yeah, he regained his youthful appearance but that in no way means he aged backwards or gained any mobility he had before being connected to the Gedo Mezo. That is still a mystery if he had gotten all his mobility back at all. That is why you have to take what Kabuto said into your own context and use it as proof of your cause. And that is how I am using Kabuto’s statement to explain why he isn’t as “fast” as Itachi. And by “he” I meant Kabuto. Kabuto wasn’t well versed enough to control Nagato and his rinnegan efficiently. We don’t know how fast Nagato would have reacted because he was being fully controlled by Kabuto or (when conscious) wanted to lose. Maybe there is proof somewhere else that shows Nagato fully using the rinneggan eyes as means to view all angles (maybe the Jirayia fight).

    Now the Tsukiyomi vs the Rinneggan:

    Where is the proof that this genjutsu can be used on Nagato? there is No proof at all, what-so ever. Yeah Nagato was caught in a genjutsu (but he was caught be surprise). http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c378/7.html . Jirayia knew Nagato would be caught off guard because of Jirayias lack of genjutsu expertise. So who’s to say Nagato, aware of Itachis genjutsu expertise, would be affected? No proof. We do not even know all the powers of the Rinnegann either. And to degrade the rinnegann as just a ocular jutsu that can just control certain powers and all elements is not a good enough argument. He was also able to master all the basic elemental jutsu. Hmm, it sounds strongly similar to the sharingans ability to copy techniques also. So who’s to say that the rinnegann wasn’t also able to create genjutsu. This is a statement from Konan. Funny how she knows the power of the sage that can create reality out of any illusion (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v54/c510/10.html). Madara also acknowledges it. Here’s some more to satisfy your taste http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v54/c510/11.html. Heck read the rest of the chapter, its ubber cool (not the Konan dying part but her hope). So yeah, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Nagato might have been able to over come that genjutsu. In fact, if Nagato was able to do what the sage did, Tsukiyomi might have just been childs play.

    Nagato wins this battle…

  68. All that I wrote was based on what the manga gave me.

  69. “In Amerturasu vs Shenri Tensi (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/15).
    Fact, Nagato can repel the Eternal Black Flames.”

    Yes, after being burned to a crisp. That’s when Shinra Tensei is most helpful. 😛

    “Fact, Nagato had control of his own body when he was hit by Itachi (It was not Itachi’s speed that caught Nagato in Amerterasu). Nagato recognized Itachi was not under control anymore. Like any other revived being during the war, with a conscience, he allowed himself to be beaten. (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/8) . There is no proof what-so ever that shows Itachi can touch Nagato if Nagato were to use Shenri Tensi before Itachi’s attack. No proof.”

    LOL. In your mind perhaps. Shinra Tensei repels incoming attacks. How does one repel an attack that ignites on sight. If Nagato uses Shinra Tensei before Itachi uses Amaterasu Itachi will have a 5 second window to set Nagato ablaze. If Nagato uses Shinra Tensei after Itachi uses Amaterasu he will be burned like what we saw in the manga. The only thing Nagato can try is use Shinra Tensei at exactly the same time as Amaterasu igniting on his body.
    Regardless of what he does, he will get burned. The only good defence against Amaterasu Nagato has got is his summons.

    “If your looking for another reason I think Nagato would beat Itachis Eternal Black flames is because that other path power of absorbing Ninjutsu (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c377/9.html). That jutsu Jirayia made was of fire and oil. So yeah I think it can handle any ninjutsu. There is no proof that the Eternal Black Flames can overcome that jutsu but there is proof that this path can absorb ninjutsu (even a rasen-shuriken).”

    Like I said before. Deva Path absorbs ninjutsu through a force field around the body. What good will that do with an attack that doesn’t start meters in front of you but on you?

    “Chibaku Tensi vs Susano’o
    Nagato in full power (or almost close to it, who knows) was able to conjure the ball pretty quickly.”

    That was a Nagato who was first of all undead and therefor had no limits to his chakra reserve and second of all, he absorbed Bee’s 2nd level Bijuu cloak completely. If we look back at what Kisame was able to do with that I think we can say that’s why Nagato was able to form the ball so quickly. If he was alive and didn’t get the massive chakra surge of a Bijuu he wouldn’t be able to do all he did so quickly.

    “Nagato’s speed:
    You also have to realize Nagato might not have been that mobile because he was not that mobile to begin with in this fight (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/73913037/3). Yeah, he regained his youthful appearance but that in no way means he aged backwards or gained any mobility he had before being connected to the Gedo Mezo. That is still a mystery if he had gotten all his mobility back at all. That is why you have to take what Kabuto said into your own context and use it as proof of your cause. And that is how I am using Kabuto’s statement to explain why he isn’t as “fast” as Itachi. And by “he” I meant Kabuto. Kabuto wasn’t well versed enough to control Nagato and his rinnegan efficiently. We don’t know how fast Nagato would have reacted because he was being fully controlled by Kabuto or (when conscious) wanted to lose. Maybe there is proof somewhere else that shows Nagato fully using the rinneggan eyes as means to view all angles (maybe the Jirayia fight).”

    Regardless of how fast Nagato actually was last chapters he was faster than when he was in a wheelchair so I think it’s a safe assumption to say that when he absorbed the Hachibi’s chakra he regained youth and speed. Chakra enhances all aspects of the body after all.
    Anyway, my argument of Nagato being slower than Itachi was based on his fight with Danzou and Hanzo. Itachi has shown to be considerably faster than that.

    “Now the Tsukiyomi vs the Rinneggan:

    Where is the proof that this genjutsu can be used on Nagato? there is No proof at all, what-so ever. Yeah Nagato was caught in a genjutsu (but he was caught be surprise). http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c378/7.html . Jirayia knew Nagato would be caught off guard because of Jirayias lack of genjutsu expertise. So who’s to say Nagato, aware of Itachis genjutsu expertise, would be affected? No proof. We do not even know all the powers of the Rinnegann either. And to degrade the rinnegann as just a ocular jutsu that can just control certain powers and all elements is not a good enough argument. He was also able to master all the basic elemental jutsu. Hmm, it sounds strongly similar to the sharingans ability to copy techniques also. So who’s to say that the rinnegann wasn’t also able to create genjutsu. This is a statement from Konan. Funny how she knows the power of the sage that can create reality out of any illusion (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v54/c510/10.html). Madara also acknowledges it. Here’s some more to satisfy your taste http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v54/c510/11.html. Heck read the rest of the chapter, its ubber cool (not the Konan dying part but her hope). So yeah, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Nagato might have been able to over come that genjutsu. In fact, if Nagato was able to do what the sage did, Tsukiyomi might have just been childs play.”

    As I said, the Rinnegan is the most powerful eye because it grants the user the ability to manipulate all 6 elements. If that doesn’t make it strong I don’t know what will. As for genjutsu and Izanagi. If the Rinnegan was genjutsu capable, don’t you think Nagato would have used it by now?
    Izanagi on the other hand can’t be used by Nagato. Madara explained you need Senju and Uchiha blood combined with the Sharingan. Nagato had neither Senju nor Uchiha blood so whether the Rinnegan can do what the Sharingan is already out of the question because Nagato doesn’t have the other two requirements.

    “Nagato wins this battle…”

    Ooh does he now?

    Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu = Itachi wins

  70. Ooh and as for Tsukuyomi,

    You assume Tsukuyomi doesn’t affect Nagato because the Rinnegan is the most powerful dojutsu. That’s no proof, that’s an assumption and one that holds no ground whatsoever.
    My assumption that Tsukuyomi can be effective is based on the FACT that 3 of the 6 paths of Pain did get trapped in a genjutsu weaker than Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. Turn it anyway you like but genjutsu affects the brain. Whether it’s caused by sound, sight, smell, taste or touch doesn’t matter. So I’m perfectly capable to assume Tsukuyomi, ‘the ultimate genjutsu’ CAN affect a Rinnegan user.

  71. @Baron

    I have given you evidence to support my opinions, not just assumptions. What have you given me? Not much in terms of that really.

    Btw, when I was referring to Animal Path’s summons, I was referring to the big rock bear thingy he summoned to block Jiraiya’s attacks, not a living summon. Animal path can summon more than just animals, ironically enough.

    In any case, we are going around in circles here. You keep making comments without any real evidence to back them up. You presume Itachi is faster than Nagato when you have no evidence to back it up. You assume Amatarasu can’t be avoided when the fact is, it has been avoided, blocked or otherwise survived in every single battle I have seen it used in so far. I’ve never actually seen Amatarasu ever defeat anyone, have you?

    You also assume Tsukyomi is unbreakable when I have shown you evidence it has been broken and the only thing you can say to me to prove otherwise, is to “assume” that Itachi let Sasuke break it when you have no real evidence to support that theory. I have supported all my arguments with relevant information taken straight from the manga, while you have mostly supported yours with assumptions.

    Here’s a fact. Itachi didn’t go easy on Sasuke. He hit Sasuke directly with Amatarasu when he had no guarantees Sasuke could avoid or survive it. He may have wanted Sasuke to win the battle, but he still made sure that Sasuke won because he was strong and not just because he made it easy.

    I have given you plenty of real manga references to back up my theories. It’s your job to try and disprove them using evidence of your own, which is what debating is all about.

    In any case, all things set aside, I have enjoyed this debate a lot. You are a good opponent. @__@

    I’ll be getting someone neutral to review the comments and choose a winner for the debate, so as not to be biased. If you did well enough, you’ll win and I will congratulate you. Thanks for the competition. ^ ^

  72. @Baron

    P.S. Jiraiya used sound based genjutsu on Nagato, which has nothing to do with eyes.

    Another fact is that Tsukyomi isn’t the ultimate genjutsu. Shisui’s genjutsu was even stronger and Itachi himself made that quite clear.

    Another fact, both Madara and Jiraiya referenced the fact that the Rinnegan was the strongest of the three great doujutsu and Madara even gave us evidence to show that The Rinnegan is also more powerful than the MS, because those who could read the tablet hidden in the Uchiha shrine, could only see so much according to the power of their eyes. The Byuakugan could see the least, followed by the Sharingan, followed by the Mangekyo sharingan and then the Rinnegan, which could see the most, because it was the most powerful eye type.

    There is your evidence, straight from the manga. @___@

  73. “I have given you evidence to support my opinions, not just assumptions. What have you given me? Not much in terms of that really.”

    Really? Where does it say in the manga that the Rinnegan is insusceptible to genjutsu? Nowhere. FACT!

    “Btw, when I was referring to Animal Path’s summons, I was referring to the big rock bear thingy he summoned to block Jiraiya’s attacks, not a living summon. Animal path can summon more than just animals, ironically enough.”

    I was well aware of that. And like I said, it’s not like Itachi can only use Amaterasu once.

    “You keep making comments without any real evidence to back them up. You presume Itachi is faster than Nagato when you have no evidence to back it up.”

    LOL. I just assumed the manga is common knowledge to everyone so I wouldn’t have to repeat lines or link to chapters.
    My proof that Tsukuyomi isn’t so easily broken as you assume it is;
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/15
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/18
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/7
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/401
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/401/2
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/478/3

    Itachi being fast;
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/141/15
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/141/16
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/260/5
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/549/5
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/549/7
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/549/11

    Nagato being not as fast as Itachi;
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/447/3
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/447/4

    “You assume Amatarasu can’t be avoided when the fact is, it has been avoided, blocked or otherwise survived in every single battle I have seen it used in so far. I’ve never actually seen Amatarasu ever defeat anyone, have you?”

    The same can be said for most, if not all Nagato’s jutsu.

    “You also assume Tsukyomi is unbreakable when I have shown you evidence it has been broken and the only thing you can say to me to prove otherwise, is to “assume” that Itachi let Sasuke break it when you have no real evidence to support that theory. I have supported all my arguments with relevant information taken straight from the manga, while you have mostly supported yours with assumptions.”

    Like I said before my assumption is based on the fact (read that again, fact) that Itachi let Sasuke win. I’m not saying Itachi went easy because he didn’t. And the reason was obvious. Orochimaru. That’s all straight from the manga. I’m not pulling stuff out of my ass.

    “Here’s a fact. Itachi didn’t go easy on Sasuke. He hit Sasuke directly with Amatarasu when he had no guarantees Sasuke could avoid or survive it. ”

    He didn’t hit Sasuke directly with Amaterasu, he burnt Sasuke’s right wing off. Being based on sight Itachi knew precisely what he was targeting. Sasuke said it himself after Itachi used Amaterasu and before he used Kirin that Kirin was like Amaterasu, unavoidable.
    Only people as fast or faster than A can really dodge Amaterasu. One has to be faster than the sharingan can see.

    “He may have wanted Sasuke to win the battle, but he still made sure that Sasuke won because he was strong and not just because he made it easy.”

    True but the fact still remains that if Itachi was serious and really after Sasuke’s eyes he would have gotten them.

    “P.S. Jiraiya used sound based genjutsu on Nagato, which has nothing to do with eyes.

    Another fact is that Tsukyomi isn’t the ultimate genjutsu. Shisui’s genjutsu was even stronger and Itachi himself made that quite clear.

    Another fact, both Madara and Jiraiya referenced the fact that the Rinnegan was the strongest of the three great doujutsu and Madara even gave us evidence to show that The Rinnegan is also more powerful than the MS, because those who could read the tablet hidden in the Uchiha shrine, could only see so much according to the power of their eyes. The Byuakugan could see the least, followed by the Sharingan, followed by the Mangekyo sharingan and then the Rinnegan, which could see the most, because it was the most powerful eye type.”

    Like I said, genjutsu is a jutsu that alters the chakra flow in someone’s brain. I can’t remember who explained it and when but that means it doesn’t matter what kind of eyes someone has. One cannot simply be insusceptible to genjutsu because they have the most powerful eyes in existence. It’s about the brain. jiraiya putting a genjutsu on 3 of the 6 paths of Pain showed that they were susceptible to genjutsu (their brain could be affected). The fact that nobody has ever used eye genjutsu on Pain or Nagato doesn’t mean it won’t work.

    It doesn’t matter by which senses the genjutsu is cast, it’s about the targets ability to either resist the genjutsu or, after being affected by it, the ability to break the genjutsu with additional chakra like Hachibi freeing Bee from Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi or from Itachi’s (regular sharingan) genjutsu.
    But with the Tsukuyomi affecting someone in an instant, having someone to help you is useless. That leaves someones ability to resist the genjutsu. 3 paths were struck by a genjutsu and couldn’t break out of it without help. Therefore I assume (because we can’t be sure about anything until it actually happens in the manga) Nagato himself is susceptible to genjutsu as well.

    The fact that the Rinnegan can read Braille doesn’t mean anything in this debate because like I said, both Itachi and Zetsu specifically mentioned the sharingan when they mentioned the requirements for countering/breaking Tsukuyomi.

  74. @Ten

    “@Baron
    P.S. Jiraiya used sound based genjutsu on Nagato, which has nothing to do with eyes.
    Another fact is that Tsukyomi isn’t the ultimate genjutsu. Shisui’s genjutsu was even stronger and Itachi himself made that quite clear.
    Another fact, both Madara and Jiraiya referenced the fact that the Rinnegan was the strongest of the three great doujutsu and Madara even gave us evidence to show that The Rinnegan is also more powerful than the MS, because those who could read the tablet hidden in the Uchiha shrine, could only see so much according to the power of their eyes. The Byuakugan could see the least, followed by the Sharingan, followed by the Mangekyo sharingan and then the Rinnegan, which could see the most, because it was the most powerful eye type.
    There is your evidence, straight from the manga. @___@”

    Just because Tsukyomni is the second most strongest genjutsu known or if Rinnengan is a more powerful Genjutsu than MS , it doesn’t mean that Tsukyomni won’t work on someone who possess the rinnengan. That is an assumption or a theory.

  75. Edit:”rinnengan is a more powerful dojutsu”

    Someone fix that for me ? 😀

  76. ”rinnengan is a more powerful dojutsu”

    Even that is debatable. Yes in the end the Rinnegan is the most powerful being more diverse but if you look at what they grant the user they’re fairly even.

    The Rinnegan grants the user the ability to use all 6 elements.
    The Sharingan grants the user the ability to copy any jutsu. So in a way that’s the same. The Rinnegan only enables all 6 from the get go whereas the Sharingan needs to see the element be used first.

    The Rinnegan grants the user abilities said to come straight from the Sage of the Six Paths
    The Mangekyou Sharingan grants the user abilities that are said to be the ultimate in their aspect, for example the ultimate genjutsu, ninjutsu and Susano’o (ultimate summon?).
    And the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is said to grant the user one more ability on top of those 3 immensely powerful jutsu’s.

    All in all, there isn’t much difference between them in terms of power.

    BTW, I’ve only now realized that I’ve been calling Preta path Deva path during the debate. I don’t know how that happened.

  77. I would like to enter my theory for the mystery ninja in the coffin. To me, the only person it could be that would scare Madara could be none other than his brother. Think about it. The only other possibility in my mind is the sot6p. It’s one of them, and im leaning towards his bro.

  78. @mantis: wouldn’t it be interesting if Madara got his eyes in much the same way Sasuke got his? Or – if he really *did* steal his eyes from his brother? Imagine the talk *they* would have!

  79. @arpotu : Oh yeah. Awesomeness x1000! And seeing as the manga stated they were equals, wouldn’t it be epic to see madara fight his brother?

  80. @ 1redbaron1 – So it was just Nagato’s really good at picking up things that helped him learn ALL Mainstream Jutsu before 11 <_<

    Shenrai Tensei is just a little Jutsu's I mean OBVIOUSLY it can't be the most powerful Jutsu ever @_@ Come on its on par in Ninjutsu with Ametsura (Spelling) and the Rinnegan Genjutsu that actually creates blocks and changes peoples minds or even sucks out their mind… Nah that can't be the most powerful Genjutsu either. We are not only debating eyes here we debating users and both Itachi and Nagato are masters… Summons wise, Susanoo is cool and all but Nagato has Gedo Moza ?

  81. @pein

    “both are masters”

    I Disagree. Itachi has mastered his sharingan but nagato has’t “Mastered” the rinnegan

  82. @ ahsan – Well when you compare the Sharingan, to the rinnegan, its like saying, Itachi learn’t how to ride a bike with training wheels, while Nagato was struggling but riding a normal bike, I mean how long did it take for Sasuke to Master MS? So how hard can it really be hey 😉

    And I don’t think Itachi know how to undo the jutsu either so he mastered the Genjutsu and not the Ninjutsu 😛

  83. Bullcrap Nagato hasn’t mastered the Rinnegan. That’s just blatant Itachi fangirlism at its finest. His mastery of the Rinnegan is absolute. The only limiting factor is his chakra – and we all saw what a beast he was after having absorbed Bee’s chakra.

  84. I feel the need to weigh in on this debate. Nagato needs backing.

    As I said earlier, Nagato outclasses Itachi in almost every aspect, bar Susano’o. The reason should be fairly obvious: he has effective counters for most of Itachi’s abilities while packing a huge array of jutsus that allow him to adapt and overwhelm his opponent regardless of setting or circumstance. Preta path allows him to absorb all elemental and chakra-based attacks and also is formidable at short range as any enemy that gets grabbed gets their chakra sucked up. This puts Itachi at a major disadvantage as this one ability counters nearly all of his arsenal and restricts him to throwing kunai (countered by shinra tensei) or using his MS jutsus.

    As we saw earlier, amaterasu can be repulsed by shinra tensei also, meaning Itachi is left with just tsukuyomi and Susano’o. Now I can see there’s been a debate on whether Nagato would be susceptible to Tsukuyomi given his mastery of the Rinnegan and that the example of Ma and Pa toad’s sound genjutsu and Nagato’s susceptibility to it has been put under the microscope and examined. One thing I do need to stress is that this jutsu and tsukuyomi can’t be compared with each other because aural and visual stimuli affect the brain in very different ways. Nagato’s sense of hearing is no different to that of any other shinobi in the Naruniverse making him just as susceptible to that type of genjutsu as everyone else. However, his sense of sight is far better developed than your average shinobi and it is probable – not just possible – that Nagato could be immune to Itachi’s brand of visual genjutsu.

    That being said, there is no definite answers as to whether tsukuyomi could affect a rinnegan user and unfortunately before anyone can use it as a point of contention in this debate the onus is on the pro-Itachi side to provide compelling evidence to support the premise, or else the argument is null and void.

    That leaves Itachi with Susano’o. Now that I think about it, even this isn’t enough to guarantee Itachi’s victory. As the man himself said, all jutsus have a weakness, and Susano’o has several: high chakra cost, extreme physical exertion/pain from prolonged use, and mobility. The Susano’o summon is only as mobile as the user and neither Itachi or his brother have demonstrated anything more than being able to walk with a fully-realised Susano’o summon towering over him. If Nagato can get out of range or force Itachi back with a massive shinra tensei and forcing Susano’o to remain active by bombarding it with rocket fire from Asura Path, Itachi would eventually wear himself out and become easy pickings for Nagato.

  85. Actually it’s quite the contrary . With Itachi we have people to compare with i.e sasuke,Madara,Kakashi etc. As of what we have seen until now he trumps them all , the only thing perhaps is that we haven’t seen him mold his ametrasu like sasuke.
    Whereas for Nagato we have only the Sage of the 6 paths to compare and about whom we know almost nothing about.So to claim that Nagato has perfect mastery of the rinnengan is as preposterous ; if not greater; than claiming he doesn’t .

    what a beast he was eh ?

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/24027713/15
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/48046013/4

    “As we saw earlier, amaterasu can be repulsed by shinra tensei also, meaning Itachi is left with just tsukuyomi and Susano’o”

    The thing is Amaterasu did “hurt” or “burn” nagato before he blew them away via shinra tensai. He was a zombie and he regenerated . Ameterasu appears where the users casts his eye on it doesn’t “fly towards the target” . Hence even if Nagato can “blow it away” he can’t do that before it forms hence he is bound to get “some” damage from it before he “blows it away”

    Refrence : http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/15

    ” I can see there’s been a debate on whether Nagato would be susceptible to Tsukuyomi given his mastery of the Rinnegan and that the example of Ma and Pa toad’s sound genjutsu and Nagato’s susceptibility to it has been put under the microscope and examined. One thing I do need to stress is that this jutsu and tsukuyomi can’t be compared with each other because aural and visual stimuli affect the brain in very different ways. Nagato’s sense of hearing is no different to that of any other shinobi in the Naruniverse making him just as susceptible to that type of genjutsu as everyone else. However, his sense of sight is far better developed than your average shinobi and it is probable – not just possible – that Nagato could be immune to Itachi’s brand of visual genjutsu.”

    I think red put it best here

    “You assume Tsukuyomi doesn’t affect Nagato because the Rinnegan is the most powerful dojutsu. That’s no proof, that’s an assumption and one that holds no ground whatsoever.
    My assumption that Tsukuyomi can be effective is based on the FACT that 3 of the 6 paths of Pain did get trapped in a genjutsu weaker than Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. Turn it anyway you like but genjutsu affects the brain. Whether it’s caused by sound, sight, smell, taste or touch doesn’t matter. So I’m perfectly capable to assume Tsukuyomi, ‘the ultimate genjutsu’ CAN affect a Rinnegan user.”

    Now for the last point

    “If Nagato can get out of range or force Itachi back with a massive shinra tensei and forcing Susano’o to remain active by bombarding it with rocket fire from Asura Path, Itachi would eventually wear himself out and become easy pickings for Nagato.”

    So Itachi will just wait and watch as nagato kills him ? Read this again or many other countless pages which say the same thing in different words

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/5
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/8
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/48046013/4

  86. @Baron

    “The Rinnegan grants the user the ability to use all 6 elements.
    The Sharingan grants the user the ability to copy any jutsu. So in a way that’s the same. The Rinnegan only enables all 6 from the get go whereas the Sharingan needs to see the element be used first.”

    You haven’t quite given an accurate description there. It has been specifically stated that although the sharingan allows it’s user to copy jutsu and fighting styles, what it can copy is limited by the capabilities of the user copying them. In other words, if your chakra nature doesn’t match, then you can’t use the ninjutsu you are trying to copy. If you don’t have the right physical conditioning, the user may not be able to copy an opponents taijutsu either, because his/her body isn’t capable of doing so without injuring itself.

    During the chunin exam arc, Kakashi had to specifically condition Sasuke to use Lee’s fighting style that he copied with his Sharingan and even then, it wasn’t as effective as the original because of the years Lee had trained to use it as opposed to the month Sasuke had to try and catch up to him.

    “The Rinnegan grants the user abilities said to come straight from the Sage of the Six Paths.
    The Mangekyou Sharingan grants the user abilities that are said to be the ultimate in their aspect, for example the ultimate genjutsu, ninjutsu and Susano’o (ultimate summon?).
    And the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is said to grant the user one more ability on top of those 3 immensely powerful jutsu’s.

    All in all, there isn’t much difference between them in terms of power.”

    The Sage of the six paths was the creator of all ninja techniques. So, by saying that the Rinnegan grants the powers of the Sage of the Six paths is, in itself, putting it above what the Sharingan grants by far. Let’s remember here that the sharingan is a product of the Sage of the Six Paths splitting his power between his two sons, with the eye powers going to the oldest. Essentially, that means it is incomplete where the Rinnegan is whole. As for the EMS, Itachi doesn’t have that, so it is irrelevant in this debate.

    “BTW, I’ve only now realized that I’ve been calling Preta path Deva path during the debate. I don’t know how that happened.”

    I keep calling Chibaku Tensei, Edo Tensei. So I know how you feel. X__x

    @Darks

    Lol. I am now unsure as to which side you are taking. At first, it seemed like you were taking Itachi’s, but now it seems like you have swayed over to Nagato’s side. @__@

  87. I think it’s fair to say I’m completely undecided.

    In this debate are we keeping Nagato immobile and Itachi sick?

    Either way, I still don’t know who’d win in a fight.

    Anyway, any talk about the chapter? Like what’s Kabuchimaru’s secret weapon could be. Maybe we’re going to see what’s in the coffin and if it’s what I believe it to be the revelation of Madara’s identity might be revealed soon! Now that’s pretty exciting if I do say so myself.

  88. Nagato immobile ? As in in that chair of doom of his ? And Itachi is not sick or blind 😛

  89. His secret weapon is definitely that coffin , 100% sure 😉

  90. Hmm I don’t like this manga enough anymore to write a long comment to compliment Tenrai and Darks but I will say that if genjutsu is supposed to effect the brain then doesn’t that, in itself, show it didn’t work on the paths of pein? Pein has one chakra supply and one brain. If the original three had truly been caught then wouldn’t that also immobilise the other three and ultimately Nagato himself since they are all sharing those things. I also don’t think it should be discounted that Nagato can see through the eyes of his summons to make an effective counter to Tsukiyomi…

  91. @Ahsan: Lol, yes, if he’s stuck in his Chair of Doom wouldn’t he have those rods prodding him in the back and draining his chakra meaning he’s fighitng with the 6 Paths? o_O

    By immobile I mean does he have those defective legs that were blown up by the explosion tags, or are we giving him his legs back to fight properly in this fight? The same for Itachi, is he fighting with the disease that has been consuming hs body for years, or are we giving him the healthy body he had…whenever he was at his healthiest?

    I know Nagato didn’t have much control over his Rinnengan when he had his legs, so it’s probably better to make him immobile but he’ll be at the level where his eyes are the most powerful.

    As for Itachi…he’s at the level when he was the healthiest? The problem is we don’t know how powerful he was back then. We never saw him fight healthy. 😛

    As for the coffin I 100% agree!

    @Franky: I think Nagato is just fighting by himself like in the current chapters, without the 6 Paths.

    Jiraiya’s genjutsu did affect 3 of the Paths but somehow it didn’t affect the other 3…4, though they’re all connected by the same vision and chakra. Probably, the reason why Jiraiya’s genjutsu didn’t affect every one of the Paths is because it was an audio genjutsu. The Paths share a similar vision but not the same auditory senses.

    Perhaps a visual genjutsu would have worked on all of them if 1 of them were caught but we’ll never know.

  92. @ Ahsan/Baron – Assuming that Pein could fall under Tsukyomi, his presence is in more places then one, also Itachi had a clear shot at Nagato when he was purched on the summon but instead used his decidingly weaker jutsu that wouldn’t paralyse Nagato but instead burn the immortal? Doesn’t really make sense for this all knowing Itachi the fanboy/girlism speaks of, Like Itachi even said all jutsu have a weakness even his own which you all believe is immortal to all @_@ <_<

    1stly it is a fact that the 3 paths where trapped by a weaker SOUND genjutsu returning to this will continuely be countered by this point you cannot compare being alergic to banana's to then assume that you alergic to all fruit, also Nagato was never trapped in the Genjutsu it was purely 3 of the paths that where trapped, further more how many people can Itachi trap in genjutsu at a time, I don't think I have seen more then one at a time so again one path will be trapped while the others are free plus the summons are too, Itachi will be a sitting duck to all the other characters trying to kill him.

    When you say you can compare Itachi to Sasuke and Madara etc, well lets see, Itachi Sasuke in Genjutsu so hmmm kinda an even pairing their, Tobi got his weird space time thing and Inzagi plus millions of eyes laying around, so yeah umm point of Itachi being greatest of all seems a little invalid at this point.

    In the page you sent, Kabuto is talking about Itachi’s forward thinking being able to release from a jutsu like Edo Tensei which in a sense was dumb luck more then anything 😛

    Also MS has a massive draw back in chakra and eye sight, I mean even Sasuke struggled after his first battle using it. Itachi would of used MS for a while to master these techs so in the end he has a few Black Flames and a few Genmasterofalljutsu’s and he is screwed, plus Susanoo as a last resort or even just if he uses that he will burn out… Nagato has the eyes of the Sage (which if you look at your history is the Rinnegan not the Sharingan) and the Body of an Uzumaki…

  93. @Super

    Consider both combatants to be in their ideal prime. In other words, a younger Nagato who isn’t crippled or resigned to a wheelchair (with legs), and Itachi without any illness or blindness.

    Now, I realise that there are some “unknowns” with regards to their true power, but then, the same could be said for a lot of debate contestants we have had in the past. It’s all about using what evidence we do have, to build up a case as to whom you think would win. It wouldn’t be half as interesting if we already knew everything about them, which would in itself paint a far clearer picture as to who is stronger.

  94. @ten – lol i usually sway to whichever side I feel is underrepresented. Makes it fun. XD

  95. @Darks

    Sometimes I do that as well. Lol. A debate is only as good as it is challenging, after all. I remember our victory with Orochimaru. 😛

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