Naruto Chapter 528 Breakdown: The ties of brotherhood.

Ah yes, brotherhood. It’s such an interesting concept isn’t it? How one can be related to another by blood and yet still have such an overwhelming, almost animalistic urge to wring their hands around their sibling’s neck and never let go? I remember back in the day (not too long ago, mind you) when my brother and I used to fight constantly, day in and day out. It was almost as if the two of us were bred with the sole purpose of destroying one another and, in some cases, it felt like we were trying really hard to succeed to that end. I recall a moment that I felt so angry with my older brother, that I ended up hurling a chair at him from across the room, which, of course, he deftly avoided with the elegance and grace only years of experience in such circumstances could afford any individual facing a near death situation of the like.

Unfortunately, I wasn’t as lucky in most cases…

Whether it was having doors accidentally slammed into my head or simply through the act of breaking a window – which I just so happened to be standing under at the time – I always ended up being stitched back together again after each accidental attempt on my life. But even despite the mayhem and turbulence surrounded such a volatile relationship, at the heart of it all was a far deeper connection that had solidified between the two of us that could never be broken no matter how much passed. It was the kind of understanding no-one else could share with me and deep down inside, I think we both always knew that we would always have each other’s backs…. when we weren’t breaking them of course.

Brotherhood rule No 1: A brother always looks out for his sibling, no matter what. After all, if anyone is going to kill your brother, it's going to be you. No-one else is allowed to take that pleasure from you, especially if you can help it!

Hey everyone, it’s Tenrai Seshi here filling in for Captain Pickles with this week’s breakdown.

Now, I am sure all of you are wondering why I am talking about brotherhood, instead of getting on with the breakdown. Well ,the answer is because this will be the theme of the breakdown. After seeing two brothers, Kinkaku and Ginkaku, in action this chapter, I couldn’t help but notice the deep connection shared between them, whose evidence seems to lie in every action and word they share. So instead of simply summarizing details you already know well enough, I thought I would try something different and focus on that theme. From the way they fight, to the views they share, Kinkaku and Ginkaku are something akin to two mischievous boys rebelling against their parents, or in this case, the world, with only each other to keep one another standing strong. I think it’s a feeling many people with siblings can relate to, because the bottom line is that no matter what happens, you’ll always have this love deep down inside for them that is difficult to break away from.

One thing that struck me in particular in this chapter, was the way in which Kinkaku pleaded for help from his older brother after Darui had cornered him into a dangerous situation. The look on his face was one of terror and his cry for help seemed sincere. It softened my heart quite a bit, because I know how strong those feelings are for me personally, so I couldn’t help but sympathize with him despite his his otherwise sinisterly destructive nature. Kinkaku’s angered reaction to his brother’s subsequent entrapment only further emphasized that bond shared. I could almost feel my blood curl just from seeing him erupt into an six-tailed transformation, knowing how I might have felt in a similar situation.

Of course, the Gin-kin brothers aren’t the only siblings in this manga who share this deep connection and there are other examples which are just as intriguing.

Rule of brotherhood No 2: No matter how much you think you can beat up your older brother, chances are he will flatten you the first time you try. If this is the case for you, then throwing furniture may be the next option available. Hit and run tactics are especially effective, even more so when you can run and hide behind your parent's backs and pretend like you did nothing wrong. O__O

If we look at the relationship between Sasuke and Itachi Uchiha, we are ultimately treated to a very different picture altogether. Unlike Kinkaku and Ginkaku, these two have shared a far more turbulent history, first with a loving relationship – which anyone with siblings could only hope to be blessed with – only for that bond to ultimately be severed and replaced with one of hatred and suffering. Itachi’s love for Sasuke, his treasured little brother, eventually drove him into performing unspeakable acts he may have never otherwise considered under any other circumstances. However, it was also the resolve he shows in such acts that define, that much more clearly, just how important that bond was to him.

In the case of the Raikage and Bee, we have yet another relationship more typical of two brothers who share in one another’s lives. The Raikage interacts with Bee like any older brother would with his younger – which often involves a lot of high blood pressure, a worrying amount of heart convulsions, more than a few losses of one’s temper and enough facepalms to render one permanently brain-damaged – while Bee, on the other hand, fills his own role by making his older brother’s life that much more difficult by making him worry and being a general nuisance, effectively ensuring that his head is always populated with an increasingly healthy number of gray hairs.

Rules of brotherhood No 3: When you've really just had enough of your brother and you just feel like suffocating him, just remember to use a pillow. At least then your parent's won't hear his screams. @__@

From the troubled past, but hopeful future of the sand siblings, to the hot and cold relationship between Samui and Atsui, at the end of the day, there is one common factor that all these examples share and that is the love that these siblings ultimately have for one another. For the last rule of brotherhood, all I have to say is, always love your brother, no matter what, because no-one in the world could ever replace him. Also, your parents told you to, so that makes it a law. <_<

To end off, I decided to add a debate to this weeks breakdown, only with an interesting twist. Instead of having a battle debate between two individual combatants, let’s see how this one slides…

Whether it is about strength and their power as a team, or simply the “cool” factor they share, you are all welcome to debate whatever reasons you like as to why you believe a specific set of siblings are the best. I hope you enjoy. Of course, we can’t leave things at that without announcing last week’s bubbliton contest winners, so here it is.

3rd) Redbaron:

Bubble: I’m not a Ghost!!!
Caption: If there’s something strange
in your neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
GHOSTBUSTERS!

2nd) Kantonkage: (It’s a cruel irony…)

Bubble: My fortune told me someone was going to suck me, This guy is NOT what I had in miiiiiiinnnnnnddddd.
Caption: Well, it’s sucks to be you.

And the winner is…!

Chairmankage: Bubble: Tellthemthatidiedkissingawomaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan…! Caption: Because being “sucked” could mean other things.

Sorry, but I really didn’t feel like trying to squeeze that into the little bubble in the screen, so I just put the entire post in the captions.

In any case, for those who enjoy this type of thing, here is another screen for this week just in case.

*Insert possible caption here.*

I know it’s a bit of a difficult one, but it was the best I could come up with. Well, that’s all from me this week. I hope you all enjoyed the breakdown and the chapter.

See you all in the comments! ^ ^

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~ by Tenrai Senshi on February 21, 2011.

114 Responses to “Naruto Chapter 528 Breakdown: The ties of brotherhood.”

  1. FIRST!!! Awesome Breakdown!!!

    I know the feeling of being both younger and older brother 😀

  2. – Siblings Debate –

    Raikage Bee – unstoppable

    Kin-Gin – they already kinda down and that was just Durai

    Itachi – Sasuke – Too much use of eyes and they both bleed and die from blood loss from eyes

    Sand Siblings – Gaara will be awesome, Kankuro and Temari slightly less @___@

    Winner winner chicken dinner IMO is Raikage and Bee 😉

  3. second !!
    Tenrai Senshi you went on pwnage with this breakdown, that was cool 😀
    could Madaras staff or whatever that is be the 5th ultimate treasure of sage of six paths? I dont have link but i think abuot the thing that Madara holded while fighting 1st Hokage…

  4. Third!!!

    I remember when I was little and I used to fight with my older brother… I remember when I chased him with a chair around the house… It was so much fun. 😀

    Anyway, I vote Raikage and Bee because they are super-powerful and have great teamwork. The Kin-Gin bros just aren’t that cool in my opinion because they just got introduced and we don’t know much about them.

  5. Wow. This was an epic breakdown, to say the least. I loved the color images and the funny brother theme.

    As for the brother debate, i would have to choose Itachi and Sasuke.

  6. Great job Tenrai, when I was little my brothers and I fought all the time. I was a biter and my older brother was a slammer. I just argued with my little brothers, but most of the physical fighting occurred between my older bro and I. xD

    Now we’re cool as cucumbers. I’m going with Itachi and Sasuke on this one. EMS and MS combined on two geniuses of the Uchicha Clan is a pair that would have my bet anytime.

    As for the chapter…good.

  7. You forgot The first and second Hokage.

  8. Interesting breakdown. Although I didn’t like the ‘kaku’ brothers at all I can relate to their feelings towards one another.
    Funny though, the breakdown makes me realize my relationship with my brother is the same as A and Bee… Which makes me A…
    *Grins like an f-ing idiot*

    This one is for Captain Pickles,

    Bubblition;

    Small Bubble: Piii kaaa

    Big Bubble: CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!

    Caption: Someone’s just been Thunderstruck. ^__^

  9. and the battle of Mauve shirts vs Mooks continues. am i supposed to care about any of these characters? the zombies are already dead so theres no point in getting invested in them, they wont be sticking around. And as for the good guys… if your going to give minor characters the spotlight then why not give it to the konoha 12 like back in part 1? Not the minor minor characters…

  10. “The look on his face was one of terror and his cry for help seemed sincere. It softened my heart quite a bit, because I know how strong those feelings are for me personally”

    I know that feeling…

    With sheer badassitude, the best bros are Bee and A.

    If its bonds, I say its the KinGin bros. They’re two brothers against the whole world.

  11. Bubble Right (his left)
    Wow its getting hot around here

    Bubble Left (His Right)
    Holly Crap a Talking Testicle

    Caption:
    Talking Testicles are no joke :O

  12. @ Redbaron – This has been mentioned in the past but the 5 Weapons are based on weapons used in the journey to the west novel, I think the last object would be the “Pot” used to seal the 8 Tails since there already is a Fan, as far as I remember.

  13. @kantonkage

    Curse you for always remembering stuff I seem to let slip! >_<

    @takashid

    Maybe Kishi is trying to broaden his list of more prominent characters by giving us a more detailed look into each of their abilities and personalities. That is how most long term characters are introduced into a story, is it not? Basically, what everyone seems to be suggesting now is that they aren't interesting in seeing new characters introduced into the story.

    In saying that, this is a war at the end of the day. Everyone wanted another shinobi world war and now they have it and the fact of the matter is that a war that involves the whole shinobi world will ultimately have to have a broad focus. If it doesn't, we will be left in the dark with little to no clue of what is actually going on. I imagine it is actually quite difficult for Kishi to think of the content of each chapter, because it involves a very careful balancing act. One wonders whether this may be a case of biting off more than you can chew? But I suppose we will see how it pans out.

    On the flipside, I have to admit that I am also disappointed about the lack of focus on Kakashi's battle. I think we're all waiting for his epic moment when he unleashes his full power, but so far, nothing. O__O

  14. P.S. It’s nice to see some stories of brotherhood coming out in the comments sections. Maybe we will see some more interesting and funny stories over the next few days. ^ ^

  15. Tenrai: yeah, i get that. its the big war, final battle, etc. I just wish he would focus on characters that actually matter. In part 1 Negi and Choji got amazing one on one fights that gave them great character dvelopment and showed they were strong characters. I still remember those fights as some of the best i have ever seen in Naruto. However flash forword to part 2 and we have never had that level of focus on any of the 12 xcept for shikamaru. this war seems like the perfect time to change that, but instead we are focusing on really minor characters that were just introduced. And the logic isnt very strong this chapter. When darui reappeared after being sucked up i thought “Oh awesome, he must have planned this by using a loophole right?” nope, it just so happened that up until that day he always had an even number of words he said. Really!? are you kidding me?

    anyway, i enjoyed your breakdown tenrai, but i don’t have any funny brotherhood stories. My brother and i fought all the time when we were kids, but we went to different high schools and started to grow apart. He went to a fancy school, and became involved with theater, got perfect grades, etc. After he started really getting into theater we barely hung out anymore, he didn’t have time. My school was full of “problem kids”, and i didn’t have a lot of friends, compared to my brother who seemed to have crowds of admirers. i started feeling jealous of my brother which is weird because im the older brother, and even though i never did anything about it, the feeling of resentment was there. We still see each other when im home, and are still friendly, but we arent as close as we used to be.

  16. @takashid

    I am sorry to hear that you weren’t as close to your brother as you may have hoped. I actually had a similar situation myself in that regard, only, under different circumstances.

    Growing up with my brother was pretty much how it was in my breakdown. Lot’s of fighting, lot’s of accidents, typical stuff really, I could say. When I moved to Cape Town for two years and he came down with me, we actually got along much better. We went out together, had fun and it was like a completely different relationship. It was like we were really great friends as much as we were brothers.

    But then, after moving back home again, he started changing his priorities and all of a sudden, becoming popular became more important than anything else, to the point where my brother started behaving differently just to be noticed and admired by others. It was the kind of narsistic behavior that I didn’t like and it ended up pushing us apart. For a while, I never talked to him and I didn’t like the kind of person he was becoming.

    Now, things are settling a bit, but they haven’t gone back to the way they were before. Only time will tell what will really happen in the future though and hopefully, you and your brother will grow closer one day.

    But you know, he may feel the same way. You should try giving him a call some time just to talk to him, maybe invite him out for fun or try, in some wat, to rekindle your relationship. After all, it’s never to late to change things for the better.

    P.S. I know how you feel.

  17. Wow. I’m the youngest of four. I never really hung out with my bros because it would feel weird. I also fought a lot with them, and always lost except recently ;). But when it comes to bonds of brotherhood, we’re pretty close. Actually, we’re like Siamese Twins, except we’re no joined together. So yeah.

  18. I think the best method for Kishi to handle this war is to show new ninja we’ve never seen before in brief panels fighting or talking. Not dedicate whole chapters to them. To dedicate whole chapters to any battle it’d be much preferreed to showcase chracters we’re interested in seeing developed. Characters we already know or at least heard of before the war.

    Where are all the Kages? Let’s see them fight! Where’s Itachi and Nagato!? I am admittedly being impatient though because the war just started but I’m just saying…if Kakuzu has already been fighting then who knows who else is already offscreen battling.

  19. @Super

    I am sure that the anticipation of seeing some of the worlds most powerful shinobi in action again is an exciting prospect, but don’t worry, when they do finally unleash themselves on the battlefield, I am sure it will be worth the wait.

    Especially with the likes of Itachi and Nagato. Those two would be battlefield changers. I still wish we could have seen Minato involved in this war to get an idea of how devastating his abilities are in an open battlefield, but oh well. T__T

  20. “@ Redbaron – This has been mentioned in the past but the 5 Weapons are based on weapons used in the journey to the west novel, I think the last object would be the “Pot” used to seal the 8 Tails since there already is a Fan, as far as I remember.”

    I think that’s supposed to be directed at pwnman. 😉
    But I agree. 🙂

  21. Tenrai: Thanks. The issue is more getting over the jealousy i have had, but i will try your advice. So thanks for the kind words.

    Kisu: lol i cant imagine having four older brothers. i only have one Older brother, and he’s in his 30’s, maried (to an awesome lady), and i only see him about once a year. i dont have a clue how you younger siblings feel 😛

  22. @Takashid, its a tough job but someone’s gotta do it haha

  23. @takashid

    It’s my pleasue if it helps. I actually happen to be the middle child amongst my siblings, with an older brother and a younger sister, so I know how it feels both ways.

    @Kisu

    I bet you enjoyed it. 😛

  24. Well I am the middle sibling I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters, we are 7 all together that link around me… So yeah I can we can almost make up a whole soccer team 😛

  25. BUBBLE:
    Bubble Right “I’m Gonna rip your head off”
    Bubble Left “And SHIT DOWN YOUR NECK”

    Caption: Duke’s Finally out of Gum

  26. Awesome breakdown Tenrai! Unfortunately I only have 2 sisters which annoyed all the time. Cant play boys games with them and other boys stuff, so i had a pretty boring childhood… If it wasnt for mario, i dont know how would i turned out..hahaha..

    Woohoo i won!hehehe

    Small Bubble: Grrrrr!!!

    Bubble: I wish i didn’t eat that quadruple bypass burger…

    Ever wonder how would Chouji look like if he was the 9 tails host and got constipated?

  27. Spoilers are out.

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67876

    And we even get pictures this time. Looks like things are starting to pick up more now. @__@

  28. @Kaga, you’d probably be a metrosexual without Mario…Sonic’s better though hahaha!

    @Tenrai, yep it means I get lots of free stuff X_X

  29. Spoilers;

    Hahaha, Ino helped take out Kinkaku. _O-

    So, now Ino has done something of some significance whereas Tenten still hasn’t done anyrhing note worthy. >__>

    *Runs for the hills knowing Kantonkage will be rollin tanks and arty up in here*

  30. SPOILER: Even before the spoilers came out, I suspected Naruto just HAD to come out of hiding when Kinkaku went Kyuubi. How the hell is Bee gonna explain this one…?

    I think it’s “cool” that we get to see some other ninja – especially siblings. He seems to have an affinity to include siblings or sibling-type relationships since he, in real life, has a brother of his own with whom he is quite close. While I have a brother I am no longer close with him due to life circumstances. My three kids are the equivalent of the Gin-Kin bros…

    @Super: I agree with you on the Kage. On top of that, if my math is correct, we are still missing more than a few Kage. What happened to the Kazekage who were not made into puppets a la Sasori? We see one earth Kage but where are the others? Did Deidara kill them all? And, the first and second Raikage…and we only get the 3rd? The Hokage is a foregone conclusion (sealed and hidden away for good).

    Then there’s Asuma and Dan – WTH are they doing in there if they aren’t going to run up against those that have issues with them (Tsunade, Shikamaru/Kurenai(?))

    One last thing – who is ultimately going to get those Five Rikudo Sage treasures, including the sealing pot? I believe they go to Naruto FTW since he’s got the chakra to support them.

    Great breakdown and I love the emphasis on the sibling relationships…

  31. “How the hell is Bee gonna explain this one…?”

    Bee knows just as much as Naruto does. They are both oblivious to the war going on outside their Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles world.

  32. @baron- Well, going off the fillers with sora, naruto could feel whenever the nine-tails chakra came out, and vice-vers for sora. And seeing how kishi’s included ninjas (and a pair of swords from the fillers) from the movies in this war. So I’m sure this is kishi’s way of getting naruto on the field.

  33. @Penny: Presumably if Kabuchimaru has a limit to how many people he can summon (hard to believe after seeing this war but most likely the case) then I bet he only had enough energy to summon a few Kages so he decided to summon the best of the old generation in each village. I wonder though…why didn’t he summon the Kazekage that could use iron sand? He was said to be the strongest of the Kazekages and his soul wasn’t sealed or anything. Not that I remember at least and does being turned into a puppet matter if whether or not you can be brought back with Edo Tensei? I wonder, because Sasori turned himself into a puppet and he was brought back.

    Though, from the sounds of Kabuchimaru’s talk about possibly reviving Danzo and Shisui (if he had the right ingredients) it doesn’t seem like he’s at his summoning limit.

  34. New Chapter

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/87520967/1

  35. Why have none of the good guys died yet? Dammit Kishi, grow a spine and start killing them already. Don’t be like Kubo.

  36. LMFAO!!! 😄

    So the story is true about the brothers being swallowed by the Kyuubi and living!?

    L…M…F…A…O!!! T_T

  37. Ok, I enjoyed the chapter I just had to laugh at that part and when the Raikage repeated the story I almost fell out of my chair. xD Then Shikaku says legends are always exaggerated, which we already discussed, but after hearing the story 3 times now it’s hard not to believe anymore. 😄 I think this is honestly how they got their powers! O_O They lived inside the 9 tails for 2 weeks and ate his stomach out filled with the 9 tails deadly chakra. o_O Oh, of course those 2 are descendants from the Rikudou Sennin.

    Anyway…Ginkaku was hilarious this chapter with his defiance and snarky comments. I think Alec was right about Naruto sensing that Kyubi chakra and figuring out something’s up. Also, INO did SOMETHING…the same thing as always but she did SOMETHING and it was a brilliant bit of teamwork. I’m glad Kishi put that trio to work.

    Was it just me or did anyone notice the bad drawing on some parts? I would hate to find them again. I don’t know if it’s the scans, or Kishi, or even one of Kishi’s assistants but this problem has been persistent for some time now.

  38. Y’know, a lot of things in Bleach can be explained away by saying “lol Hogyouku”, and it seems the Rikudo Sennin is Naruto’s version. I just love when Kishi explains thing away by saying “Rikudo Sennin lol”

  39. This was a good chapter and Kinkaku’s commentary was really funny, especially about the rain of kunai. Lol.

    I have a feeling Naruto and Bee will only come into the picture once the other Jinchuuriki take the field. I imagine the most interesting battle for them would be to take on their fellows as a tag team of the 8 and 9 tails, against all the other tails. It would be epic. @__@

    That is, of course, provided that the resurrected Jinchuuriki still have some of their bijuu powers.

    @Super

    I did notice some broken or inconsistent lines on some of the pages, and it did seem to significantly dampen the quality of the drawings, but that could be attributed to a rushed job from the scanslators while they were cleaning the scans. I know it isn’t as simple as some people may think and it can take time, otherwise, it ends up shoddy.

    The only way you would be able to tell for sure is to see the raw scans or buy the manga itself and see if the line art is as inconsistent. I find it hard to believe some of those pages with all the water and rocks and hundreds of Shinobi could be so detailed and still have such high quality artwork, while pages which are much less busier and less detailed can have such poor quality, especially when you would think they would be easier and less time consuming to draw.

  40. I loved this Chapter was brilliant… one question though… what happened to all the other Zetsu etc, they seem to all have gone mission @_@ beside Asuma in one panel the rest seem to be missing and the Forces seem to now be overwhelmingly large…

  41. Let’s start a debate. Raikage and Bee vs Itachi and Sasuke. Who do you guys think would win? @__@

  42. Raikage and Bee win this one for me, if we take into account that Bee is uneffected by Genjutsu and has the power of the 8 Tails Speed faster then the Sharingan for the Raikage, it will be close if Sasuno’s come into play but I don’t think Sasono is something the Brothers could maintain forever.

  43. Raikage and Bee take this one easily

  44. *waits for super*

  45. Ginkaku just fails so Epically. Team 10 is a bit overrated. What about other teams such as Team Kurenai and Team Gai?

  46. silly kanton, there are no other teams, there is just Shikamaru and the people who make him look good.

  47. erm…is it me, or does Ino look kinda hot? >.>

  48. @ Kanton – didn’t you see Ten Ten throw those Kunai? that was important 😛 and I am sure Kiba, Hinata and Shino are doing something important to, like killing a unknown Zetsu @_@

    @ Takashid – I thought all were just mere pawns in Shikamaru’s eyes and actually just tools he uses to win so I agree 😉

  49. This has nothing to do with Naruto, but my mind was raped.

    I tried watching New Moon and Eclipse back-to-back so I can figure out why I hate these movies so much when I haven’t watched them. Within the first 3 minutes of New Moon I stopped and threw away the DVDs. Seeing that sparkling effect and that not-so-hot girl the “werewolves” and “vamps” (Iuse these terms very loosely) are head-over-heels in love with was more than enough to make me never try watching Twilight ever again.

  50. *cough*Itachi and Sasuke would kick The Raikage’s and Bee’s ass! *cough**cough**cough*

    *thumps his chest* Excuse me.

    The Raikage’s movements are too fast for the Sharingan to follow the Raikage says yet Sasuke was able to see and dodge the Raikage’s lighting amped attacks using his Sharingan. Oh yeah, it happened! Didn’t Killer Bee go all out and lose it once Sasuke pulled out the Amaterasu for ther first time and with little to no control over it? Now, I will not disregard all the help Sasuke had in that battle, but I simply can’t push aside the fact that Sasukle now has superb control over his new powers and, most likely, the EMS (not superb control over the EMS, just stating he most likely has it now). Lol, and the Raikage only has 1 arm and Darui’s not allowed to step in! 😄

    Now, don’t make me start talking about what Itachi can do. Sasuke is just the little bro.

  51. A and B vs Itachi and Sasuke,

    The Uchiha brothers win. Even Itachi on his own would be able to defeat both. Itachi’s tsukuyomi can’t be overcome and having someone around to snap you out of the genjutsu doesn’t work either since Itachi controls space and time inside the genjutsu. If he succeeds with Tsukuyomi you’re done.

  52. i like the rai&bee vs. uchiha bros debate. I think that if we go current raikage (one arm and all, though he doesn’t seem to use seals anyway so that won’t hold him back to much) and bee vs. itachi at the level of his fight with saskue, and saskue at danzo levels i see it being close but ultimately if they play it right i see raikage and bee winning. That said it would still be a very close fight. The main problem is the only attacks the uchihas have that could work against the bros are amaterasu and susanoo. Bee is immune to genjutsu, and i have a feeling with all that electricity running through his body the raikage would be pretty hard to catch as well. The downside for the uchiha’s at the levels i gave would be that eventually they both would go blind using their only two attacks that pose any threat to the kage and bee. All four are incredibly fast and have some good smarts about them (itachi and saskue more long term strategy, whereas bee and raikage are more in the moment thinkers, thus making it hard to predict). However, not only to bee and raikage have the endurance to outlast the uchihas, there attacks are one hit kills. And they have them going at all times. Personally i think bee made a dumb decision sacrificing the mobility of his beast cloak for the power of eight tails, and i have a feeling the raikage would not let bee transform all the way, but would only let him max out at the forms he used against kisame.

    Either way it would be one of the best fights this series could offer, with both sides having insane speed levels, and all four having one and done moves. The side to make the first mistake would lose, there’s no two ways about it. Itachi and saskue could only do damage to the other two with the ms, and the kage and bee have to get incredibly close which exposes them to amaterasu, which i feel both can dodge. However, even if both sides make no mistakes, the kage and bee win just because of the fact that eventually itachi and saskue (at the levels i assumed would be most reasonable) go blind from overuse. So I’m not sure who wins this, i can see the uchihas losing as long as bee lets his brother do all the thinking for him.

  53. “Bee is immune to genjutsu”

    He’s immune to normal genjutsu where the time spent in the genjutsu is the same as in the real world. The effects of Itachi’s Tsukuyomi are immediate. You look him in the eye and you’re done. There won’t be any time for Hachibi or A to react and dispell the genjutsu.
    The only reason Bee was able to break free from Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi is because Sasuke’s version is nowhere near as powerful as Itachi’s version. A fact stated by Danzo and Madara. Danzo was even able to break Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi without the help of someone else.

    The only problem the Uchiha brothers will have is A and Bee’s immense speed. But both Itachi and Sasuke have shown to be perfectly capable of following that speed and counter any fast attack.

  54. @debate you forgot their immense tolerance for pain. Also, if A doesn’t have both of his arm then Itachi should have poor vision to be fair no asspulls here.

  55. I would just like to point out something, Killerbee has Samehada. With Itachi’s not-so-high reserves this will be over pretty quickly. I dont feel like going into too many details with this battle though since not too many people are participating :/

  56. Kisu just knows who would win but he doesn’t want to admit it. ;D Itachi knows about Samehada and would therefore inform Sasuke, and since they’re both extremely smart they’d come up with a sufficient strategy to deal with it.

    @Alec: I don’t know about Bee dodging the Amaterasu like his older brother can. That’s why I think Sasuke would be better off facing down Killer Bee again because The Raikage is much quicker and Itachi would be better suited to deal with those speeds.

    From what we’ve seen most of Killer Bee’s and the Raikage’s moves require them to get up close and personal so they’re well in range of Amaterasu (this is to deal with Bee). When the Raikage attacks Itachi and Sasuke can throw up a full Susano’o (not that flimsy thing Sasuke had before). Plus, Sasuke can wrap Amaterasu around his Susano’o and fire those super fast arrows. Assuming Sasuke has the EMS this will greatly drain his chakra but he wouldn’t go blind.

    Once Itachi has his Susano’o up he can bring out that sword which if it even grazes you you’re stuck in an infinite genjutsu. I agree the match would be really close but I see the Uchiha brothers taking it home.

  57. @super A and KB both have INSANE reflexes. aAso Itachi’s half blind, meaning he wouldn’t be able to aim properly.

  58. @redbaron

    Actually, there’s no way to prove Bee can’t break free from Itachi’s Tsukyomi just as well as he did Sasuke’s. Bee and the Hachibi share a permanent bond and while Bee is inside the time stretch of the Tsukyomi, all he has to do is draw on some of that chakra to break the Genjutsu. Because time has slowed down for him, it also gives him more time to react and get himself out of that situation.

    As for Sasuke and Itachi keeping up with A and Bee’s speed, let’s remember Sasuke’s battle with Lee in part 1 for that. We learned back then that just because you can see someone’s movements and predict them, that doesn’t mean your own body will be fast enough to counter or keep up with them.

    Sasuke and Itachi may be fast in their own rights, but the Raikage is comparable to Minato in speed – and you don’t really get faster than that – while Sasuke’s own sharingan didn’t help him one bit when it came to keeping up with Bee, who thwarted him time and time again.

    The only real threat I see here is a double susanoo. But then, all Raikage and Bee would have to do is use their speed to avoid it and move away. Susanoo may be powerful but it isn’t exactly fast and if Raikage can avoid a point blank energy blast from Juugo in his second leval cursed seal state, as well as Amatarasu, which appears at the point where the caster’s vision lands, I don’t see why he can’t avoid any attacks Itachi or Sasuke can throw at him. Same goes with Bee, although he isn’t as fast as his brother.

  59. @ Debate – Here is the problem, If you take into consideration that for Sasuke to have EMS Itachi would have to be blind (I do not take Edo Tensei summons since that would mean they immortal) So that would either make Sasuke over powered and Itachi practically useless. or them Even as we see it. 2nd If Sasuke had awakened his MS for the first time it would mean Itachi should be dead, so taking two MS are impossible without the Hax of Edo Tensei. 😛

    Bee is immune to Genjutsu, if Sasuke can beat it on hate alone I am sure Bee can beat it with him having 2 conciousness’s and if Bee is under 8 Tail’s can still take control of his body when needed. This puts Itachi at a disadvantage too…

    A and Bee have emmense speed and only thing that kept Sasuke alive was Sasoona, but as we have seen that would basically destroy his eye sight and drain his chakra quickly. A during his fight with Sasuke did not act as he usually would, he was rash and although that is his strategy he also be able to formutlate better plans. Bee and A are a good team already, they will thus work as such, Itachi and Sasuke would not be. They would get in each others way more then anything.

    Plus Bee and A have a huge amount of energy, they are well versed in complete battle, Itachi without Genjutsu to help him and even the black flames being too slow to hit makes it mean both Sasuke or Itachi will run out of energy or go blind before Bee and A loose strength, and they will be able to use that reserve to attack him.

  60. As I said before, not only was Sasuke able to see The Raikage’s attack but he was able to dodge and counter it. I’m not saying Sasuke can move as fast as The Raikage. I’m saying he can move fast enough to dodge his attacks.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v49/c463/1.html

    And let’s not forget that Sasuke was also acting unlike himself during that entire summit. He’s usually calm, cool, and collected (battle vs. Deidara). When those samurai attacked him he just went crazy after that…ok more crazy than before.

    Also, that Susano’o Sasuke conjured during the Raikage fight…lol, that pathetic thing compared to what he can conjure now in the blink of an eye can’t even compare. Oh, and let’s not resort to taking away Itachi’s powers just because Sasuke may have the EMS. ~_~ We know how debate battles work. The principles themselves defy the manga. We bring characters back to life (not zombies) as full human beings just to battle.

    A Kabuchimaru vs. Orochimaru battle would be impossible with your rules Pein. 😛

  61. I think I’ll join now.

    In Sasuke vs Raikage, Sasuke was on the defensive the entire fight, and had it not been for Susanoo’s bones he would have been destroyed by Raikage’s Raiga Bomb and Elbow (lol best attack name ever).

    In Killerbee vs Sasuke, he still couldn’t keep up. In a straight line, Bee’s as fast as his brother

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-413/07/
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v50/c473/6.html

    Itachi’s Tsukuyomi is meaningless because he can only capture Bee in a Genjutsu, not the Hachibi. Just like in Sasuke’s fight, the Hachibi will snap him out the instant he gets caught in one. The time may be different for Bee, but not for the Hachibi.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-413/09/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-413/15/

    As for Raikage, according to Jiraiya there are two ways to break Genjutsu. One of them is to put out a shitload of chakra, and we know Raikage’s chakra is comparable to a Biju. Just as Sasuke was able to overpower Itachi’s Tsukuyomi by using his Cursed Seal, Raikage can overpower it using his Lightning Release Armor.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/08/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/09/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-388/14/

    Amaterasu is also useless because it burns whatever the user is looking at, but as Sasuke and Itachi demonstrated in their fight, its useless if your target is fast enough. Not even Sasuke, who mastered Amaterasu to a higher level than Itachi could keep up with Raikage enough to set him ablaze so its useless in this fight.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-390/04/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-463/09/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-463/13/

    Susanoo isn’t even a factor because Bee has Samehada, and as we know, neither Sasuke nor Itachi has 6 tails worth of chakra. Game.

  62. @super

    You made some good points and I agree that we are using all characterts in their prime. As in, raikage with both arms, Itachi with sight, etc. However, we are not using Sasuke with EMS because we have not seen what it can do yet. For all we know, it will make him so OP that he could take on both Raikage and Bee by himself. So, we’ll use Sasuke as he was in his battle with Danzou which, in my opinion, is the height of his power when we last saw him battle.

    Now, as for your point about Sasuke not being himself, the same could be said for Raikage. He attacked recklessly and was fighting more like a berserker than anything else. So you could say both sides were under the influence of rage and emoness, only for different reasons.

    Speed wise, Sasuke may have avoided one attack, but he sure got hit by a lot as well, while the Raikage was only hit by onen which only caused a small injury thanks to his lightning armour. If his lightning armor can stop a direct blow from chidori, then there aren’t many jutsu Sasuke has that would work asside from Amatarasu and Susanoo.

    Let’s also not forget that Bee’s Chakra cloak offers him similar protection and duribility while the addition of the Samehada allows him to absorb any jutsu he might not otherwise survive.

    If you ask me genjutsu is the biggest threat in this battle, because Susannoo may be impracticle against fast moving targets. Using it would cause a heavy chakra drain on Itachi and Sasuke, so it would be more defensive than anything else. Bee is better suited for battling Genjutsu but so far as we know, Raikage not so much, although he does know about the Uchiha so he could avoid eye contact.

    In my opinion, the battle is a close call. Both sides have great advantages. It’s just that to me, the Kumo brothers know each other better and have better team work, which means they will be able to coordinate their attacks more precisely. It pushes them slightly ahead, after all, this is a team battle, not just each brother taking on one other brother, and covering for each other’s strengths and weaknesses, while coordinating well, is going to make a difference.

  63. @ Super – Yes I have to enforce those rules because if not, lets give Sasuke and Itachi EMS, its a direct sacrifice for one to the other, though I would give it in this argument if we know what Sasuke EMS would be like and you revive Itachi sick and almost completely blind as he was… unfair that the Raikage looses his arm cause of fighting Sasuke but Itachi looses nothing 😦 Plus we have no idea what the EMS actually does, just that its powerful…

    Kabumaru could fight orochimaru since it was just some of Oro’s DNA that brought Kabuto used not his entire body… If you say Orochimaru vs the 2nd and 1st Hokage (for example) will it be possible for Orochimaru to summon the 2nd and 1st Hokage in Edo Tensei? See my thought process here? They are directly linked in battle and placing them together will create a divide by 0 effect 😛

    I still see Sasuke struggling against the Raikage here.. I do not see one dodge, in fact if it wasn’t for the Sasano shield he would be dead, the Raikage was all out attack no defense unfortunately.

  64. None of you are taking into account Sasuke’s Emo No Jutsu and Itachi’s ‘I can only die by my brother’s hands’ motto. All Sasuke has to do is stare at his opponents long enough and they’ll commmit suicide. It’s impossible for anyone but Sasuke to kill Itachi because he just won’t allow it.

    I win.

  65. @super, did Luffy write that defense for you 😛

  66. @super

    NOOOOOOEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

    You weren’t supposed to use emo no jutstu!!!!!!! *watches Raikage and Bee hold hands and jump off a cliff.* T____T

    How unmanly of them. O__o

    Super has learned to use Sasuke’s “arse-pull” no jutsu well… <___<

  67. @debate just have A’s assistant send the pot and have bee rhymes about there mother say, “hey I slept with mother Itachi and sasuke” or “you Uchiha’s suck” and they would reply and thus they LOSE!!!!!!

  68. @Kanton, HA! I knew Fugaku wasn’t man enough for Mikoto, but I thought for sure that Minato was the one “fulfilling her needs” 😛

  69. Pffft, that argument was legitimate! The logic is infalliable! I won’t use such cheap tactics though and will discard my above “serious” argument and adopt this one instead.

    Fine, let The Raikage have his arm back and let’s all agree on not limiting people’s capabilities and powers over technicalities such as ‘How can that person be alive or have those powers if that guy is still alive and has those powers!?’

    Now let’s start off with Tsukoyomi.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v16/c142/15.html

    Come on folks we all saw this page coming. Only another Sharingan user can beat Itachi’s Tsukoyomi. This is not some regular genjutsu you can overcome just by charging up your body with chakra. If that was the case then Kakashi (with all his experience, knowledge, and the Sharigan) would have broken Itachi’s Tsukoyomi using this method. Tsukyomi may not work on Bee but it sure can work on The Raikage. All Itachi needs is one look.

    Let’s look at the people who have broken out of Tsukoyomi. Danzo put a binding spell on Sasuke beforehand and had the use of multiple Sharingans infused on Shisui’s arm (now Danzo’s right arm), so that’s how he countered Sasuke’s Tsukoyomi. Sasuke used the power of the cursed seal and his Sharingan to beat Itachi’s Tsukoyomi. Sasuke was not just pumping his body full of chakra thanks to the Cursed Seal. Kakashi couldn’t do anything against Itachi’s Tsukoyomi and we all know Sasuke’s Tsukoyomi pales in comparison to his older brother’s. Kakashi learned from his past failing and made a clone to counter it and had Naruto beat a 30% Itachi clone. Yipee~

    @Kisu: Showing Bee and The Raikage attacking at the same time doesn’t prove Killer Bee is as fast as his older brother. In fact, the link you presented proves that Sasuke could see Killer Bee’s obviously linear attacks and I already showed a link showing he could see and react to The Raikage’s attacks. The only reason Sasuke was caught by Bee’s clothesline was because it was a surprise attack after Sasuke thought he was done from the genjutsu.

    Itachi’s speed is most likely faster than his brother’s but…meh, I really don’t know at this point so I won’t say for certain.

    Also, if it weren’t for Gaara’s sand The Raikage would have ended up ass first in a pile of black flames and died from being burnt to a crisp in his fight with Sasuke. 😛 Sasuke may have been on the defensive with an incomplete Susano’o during that fight but now he has a complete Susano’o which he can spawn instantly and with much improved maneuverability.

    Oh yes, all the chakra drain would be detrimental but that’s the risk he’ll take during the fight alongside his brother. I know that he can’t keep all of this up forever but thankfully the fight won’t last forever. The fight with Danzo shows he can keep his doujutsus going long enough to defeat his opponent, and he’s not alone this time.

    Sasuke was using his MS ever since the beginning of the Summit and only went blind after his fight with Danzo. That’s multiple fights over an extended period of time. It’s not like he’ll go blind after using his MS techs a few times.

    @Tenrai: Sasuke got hit a lot because he got close to the Raikage (thinking the chidori would get him) and was grabbed and slammed. Then from there he was almost sat on. 😄 It’s not like The Raikage ran circles around him and started beating him around. This is the only time the Raikage seems to have snuck up on Sasuke but wait, Sasuke looks like he knew he was coming and threw up the Amaterasu so the Raikage could burn his arm off (which worked btw).

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v49/c463/14.html

    I admit The Raikage and Killer Bee would have better team work though. Don’t take away Sasuke’s possible EMS! How else can he spam doujutsu until he dies of chakra exhaustion but have perfect vision!?

    @Anyone: Now let’s talk more about the genius known as Itachi. We’ve established what Killer Bee and The Raikage can do, and we’ve talked about what they can do aganist Sasuke but that woudn’t play the same for Itachi. Last time we checked Itachi was obviously a better fighter than his brother and had more of the perks. Of course Sasuke has a improved a lot from there but that sure doesn’t hurt my argument any.

    Itachi has knowledge of Samehada and has worked beside Kisame for some time now. Killer Bee can’t even fuse with Samehada like Kisame could. Itachi and Sasuke would be well prepared for it.

    Even if it can suck up Amaterasu and Susano’o it sure can’t suck up a lighting bolt with no chakra infused in it. I’m referring to Kirin which costs no chakra and is undodgable unless you can move faster than the speed of light. The Kumo brothers wouldn’t even know Sasuke was preparing something. He could just make it look like he missed his fire jutsu like he did against Itachi. Bee can hold Samehada gleefully while an absolute pillar of lighting rains down on his parade.

    Itachi can put The Raikage in Tsukoyomi or wait until he gets close, which both of the Kumo brothers have to do in order to even fight, and beat him back with Susano’o. His Susano’o equipped with a shield that deflects any attack and a sword that if it even grazes you puts you into an infinite genjutsu. Hell, even Sasuke’s Susano’o has some attacks. Kakashi couldn’t even dodge it the arrows move so fast.

    This would not be a drawn out battle. Both Uchiha brothers know their limits and both Kumo brothers know they have to get in close to do any damage. It’s all a matter of how well the brother’s can plan to combat the superb teamwork of the brothers.

    *dances around*

  70. @SUPER and Sasuke would’ve ended as crater. A dodged Jugo attack at POINT-Blank range.
    Killer Bee attack patterns are unpredictable remember He turns Sasuke into a pincushion despite his MS. Also with Samehada one swipe and Susanoo and Amaterasu is gone. If he can take Bijuu chakra, what so special about MS Tech then. Also Bee can spit Ink into their eyes.
    Sasuke’s Susanoo’s Arrows can’t hurt what it can’t hit. Itachi’s genjutsu would be worthless. Also MS tech tends to drain the user.
    I refuse to let Sasuke have the MS if so we can get the Lightning brothers the Pot of the Rikudo Sennin.

  71. “Actually, there’s no way to prove Bee can’t break free from Itachi’s Tsukyomi just as well as he did Sasuke’s. Bee and the Hachibi share a permanent bond and while Bee is inside the time stretch of the Tsukyomi, all he has to do is draw on some of that chakra to break the Genjutsu. Because time has slowed down for him, it also gives him more time to react and get himself out of that situation.”

    I see you still don’t understand how Itachi’s Tsukuyomi works. I remember we debated about it before. Go watch the fight between Kakashi and Itachi and compare that to the fight between Sasuke and Bee. Notice that Kakashi went down right after he told Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes. Kakashi was immediately done for. Now compare that to Sasuke vs Bee. Bee attacks Sasuke and Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi, Bee seems to go down (like Kakashi did) but the Hachibi snaps him out of it after he goes down and Bee is back up. The only reason Hachibi was able to stop the full effect of the Tsukuyomi is because unlike Itachi Sasuke can’t control space and time in his Tsukuyomi.
    Even if Itachi’s Tsukuyomi is broken in a millisecond the target will still have spent hours, maybe even a day in the genjutsu.

    As for Bee breaking the genjutsu by tapping into Hachibi’s chakra, I don’t see that happening. When Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi hit Bee was unable to do anything. The Hachibi had to snap Bee out of it. Bee didn’t look like he was able to draw out the Hachibi’s chakra.

    Proof for Itachis’ Tsukuyomi’s power and effectiveness;
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/142/18
    Trapped for 72 hours in an instant. It’s like limbo, but another dream level down.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/257/7
    Kakashi… Has spoken. There is no cancelling the effects of it.
    You get hit, you’re done.

    The only downside is that it’s a double edged attack. Itachi will be faced after using it which could leave him open to an attack. But that’s where Susano’o comes in handy. He can throw it up in a millisecond like he did when defending against Sasuke’s Kirin.

    “Bee is immune to Genjutsu, if Sasuke can beat it on hate alone I am sure Bee can beat it with him having 2 conciousness’s and if Bee is under 8 Tail’s can still take control of his body when needed. This puts Itachi at a disadvantage too…”

    Itachi stopped Tsukuyomi that time. If he was serious Sasuke would have been killed and Itachi would have had the EMS. No contest. Keep in mind, Zetsu didn’t know Itachi’s true motives at that time and honestly thought Itachi was after the EMS.

    “Kakashi learned from his past failing and made a clone to counter it and had Naruto beat a 30% Itachi clone. ”

    That wasn’t Tsukuyomi. Itachi said he couldn’t use it at that time. That was just one of Itachi’s ‘regular’ or ‘weak’ genjutsu’s.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259/7

  72. 1.) The Raikage did not dodge Juugo’s attack at point-blank range. He took the hit and was unaffected thanks to the lightning armor.

    2.) The swordwork was unpredictable to Suigetsu which does not mean it’s unpredictable for Sasuke.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c411/15.html

    In fact, Sasuke only got a graze from that attack because he moved fast enough so as not to take the attack straight through the head. Also, Sasuke did not even use his MS out until the end of that battle.

    You’re correct though when you say Bee made a pincushion of Sasuke. He was surprised after all by the fact that Bee could use chakra flow and lightning element like him.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c411/17.html

    3.) Bee can spit ink their eyes? Yes, I’m absolutely sure that would work.

    4.) Sasuke’s Susano’o arrows can’t hurt what they can’t hit. This is definitely true. Also, Bee and The Raikage can’t hurt what they can’t hit. Another true statement.

    5.) If we’re scaling back the timeline and taking away Sasuke’s MS then we should also strip away Samehada from Killer Bee in all fairness don’t you think?

    Kirin would still fry him and Amaterasu from Itachi would still burn him.

    And no the Kumo brothers can’t have that silly pot. I’m using it for cooking.

    6.) I already addressed Itachi’s genjutsu and acknowledged the chakra drain of these various techs.

    @Kisu: I forgot to address your point about if you move fast enough you can dodge Amaterasu. This is true but the only person we’ve ever seen dodge Amaterasu was The Raikage because of his speed. When Bee was up against it he took it full on. Of course he was in Bijuu mode and couldn’t dodge but then there’s the subject of his linear attack pattern. He makes an easy target to catch an Amaterasu even when he’s small.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c413/8.html

    You see right there? That could have been an Amaterasu and match over but Sasuke couldn’t/didn’t know how to use that ability at that point. Yeah, it’s just not that hard for Itachi to set Bee on fire.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c413/4.html

    WHHHHEEEEE!!!!!

  73. @Redbaron: Ohhh, I stand corrected then on Kakashi breaking out of the Tsukoyomi.

    Oh, and I love this link so much I’m going to post it again.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v29/c257/8.html

    “Well…that’s alright for a normal genjutsu level”

    “There’s no cancelling the effect of it”

    Lol, I wish I could quote Kakashi all day. Anyway, you’re right about Sasuke only being able to do Tsukoyomi but not expand it by controlling the time and space of the illusion. What seems like an instant to another person seems like days to the person that’s put under. Even with the Hachibi there to help Killer Bee he may not react fast enough to save Bee from the torture. It would only seem like an instant to him of Killer Bee being caught in the genjutsu.

    Suppose The Hachibi reacted really quick and took him out after a few miliseconds. It would be hours and hours of Killer Bee being tortured. Also, Itachi can still fight even after using it as displayed in the battle with Sasuke.

    Though, I have to disagree with you on Sasuke not breaking out of Tsukoyomi himself. Itachi even admitted only with someone of the same bloodline as him could effectively combat the jutsu. Itachi was trying to push Sasuke to the limit and test his abilities to their fullest powers. He might have held back on Sasuke but he wasn’t going easy on him and holding his hand throughout the fight.

  74. I meant EMS. We You don’t want him to die too fast.
    Also, the only reason Kirabi got caught in Amaterasu was because he was too big.
    Also a full powered Tsukuyomi takes a lot of chakra and like you said he was holding back a little.

  75. Ah! And so Marksman Joins in on the epic Debate. The Incredible Marksman, that is. Its been quite a while, but let me get right down to it.

    Yes, i will agree the Raikage speed is pretty incredible. Yet, lets not forgot that Sasuke easily mimicked Rock’s speed and matched it, and had then become faster buy the time Naruto, Sai, Sakura, and Yamato ran into him again.

    Lets also take into consideration that Sasuke used this speed to successfully counter Bee in his bijuu Mode. We have all seen how fast Sasuno can be pulled out. Remember, Itachi beat Sasuke’s kirrin, a lightning bolt, which by the way mind you, strikes the earth one thousandth of a second, and pulled out Sasuno. This moved is prattically unavoidable, no matter how fast you are Zetsu practically stated.

    As for Itachi’s speed. Kakashi Noted his speed in performing Jutsu’s during his first encounter with Itachi. He noted how he moved so fast, it only looked as though Itach has just grabbed Kunia, and made no hand signs at all, but had pulled off two Jitsus. Lets also not forgot, Sasuke used his full, Potential,speed and all when fighting and trying to kill a weakened, half blind, going easy on him Itachi, who had little to no problem matching, if not besting Sasuke in speed. So it would be safe to assume Itachi is just as, if not faster then sasuke.

    And its also safe to assume, they would more then meet the odds of the Raikages speed, let alone bees, seeing as how both uchihas have experience when fighting bijuus’

    Moving on….

    If the Raikage is Caught in Itachi’s MS Genjitsu, the fight is practically over, as Super has Stated. Not only does he not posses the sharingan, but he does not have a bijuu to even counter the effects of a Genjutsu, especially one on the level of Itachi’s.

    Heck, by the time they even realize they are in a Genjutsu to attempt in freeing themselves, it may already be to late.

  76. @Marks

    It has been a long time since you and I debated.

    “Yes, i will agree the Raikage speed is pretty incredible. Yet, lets not forgot that Sasuke easily mimicked Rock’s speed and matched it, and had then become faster buy the time Naruto, Sai, Sakura, and Yamato ran into him again.”

    Firstly, Sasuke managed to mimic Rock Lee’s speed only after a month of training by kakashi to utilize it. So even though he coppied it from Lee, he still had to condition his body enough to handle that speed and even then, his body was worn out a lot faster because of the exertion involved using it. Sasuke won’t have a month to prepare to match Raikage’s own speed and learning his moves only helps him to a degree. If he can’t keep up with it, and his body isn’t conditioned for it, which it isn’t, then it can only help him so far.

    “Lets also take into consideration that Sasuke used this speed to successfully counter Bee in his bijuu Mode. We have all seen how fast Sasuno can be pulled out. Remember, Itachi beat Sasuke’s kirrin, a lightning bolt, which by the way mind you, strikes the earth one thousandth of a second, and pulled out Sasuno. This moved is prattically unavoidable, no matter how fast you are Zetsu practically stated.”

    Sasuke pretty much stood there while Bee was in Bijuu mode, while everyone else protected him. In fact, I didn’t see him try to avoid a single attack, so I don’t know how that helps the speed argument. Let’s face it, Sasuke was completely outclassed in that battle and would have died three times if it weren’t for his teammates.

    As for Susanoo, it does activate immediately, so yes, it is great as an immediate defencive measure, but let’s not forget how heavy the chakra drain is. It’s attacks are also not necessarily as fast as Raikage’s or Bee’s movement speed and they can be dodged. It’s simple a case of pulling back and letting the chakra drain take its toll. Susannoo is a last resort defencive measure in this case.

    “As for Itachi’s speed. Kakashi Noted his speed in performing Jutsu’s during his first encounter with Itachi. He noted how he moved so fast, it only looked as though Itach has just grabbed Kunia, and made no hand signs at all, but had pulled off two Jitsus. Lets also not forgot, Sasuke used his full, Potential,speed and all when fighting and trying to kill a weakened, half blind, going easy on him Itachi, who had little to no problem matching, if not besting Sasuke in speed. So it would be safe to assume Itachi is just as, if not faster then sasuke.”

    I don’t dissagree with you that Itachi must be quite fast, but comparing him to Sasuke gives no indication as to how his speed compares to Raikage and Bee. If anything, that argument above only gives more reasons as to why Sasuke would be more of a hinderence in this battle than anything else.

    “And its also safe to assume, they would more then meet the odds of the Raikages speed, let alone bees, seeing as how both uchihas have experience when fighting bijuus”

    Sasuke was also abble to keep up with Itachi, let’s not forget that, and as Super said, it’s not like Itachi was simply trying to hold back to give Sasuke an easy win. If that was truly the case, he could have let Sasuke kill him long ago. He needed to know Sasuke was strong enough to actually beat him with his own power, not just because of a fluke. That’s why he waited so long and even tested Sasuke one last time to see if he was ready to meet him personally.

    Against Bee, on the other hand, Sasuke was being thwarted over and over again and Bee was only toying with him at the time. Even the Hachibi scolded Bee for not finishing them off and playing around. In fact, I would say Bee has essentially managed to “kill” Sasuke more times than every other character combined. Let’s not forget that Bee just wanted to get away from Kumo for a while and he used Sasuke’s attack as a means to that end. He was in no danger of losing that battle, that much I can assure you, even though Sasuke had a team on his side. I would say he is at least on Itachi’s level.

    As for both having experience fighting Bijuu, only Sasuke has experience in that regard. We have no evidence to show that Itachi has ever encountered an actual Bijuu or a Jinchuuriki who was in full control of their power.

    “If the Raikage is Caught in Itachi’s MS Genjitsu, the fight is practically over, as Super has Stated. Not only does he not posses the sharingan, but he does not have a bijuu to even counter the effects of a Genjutsu, especially one on the level of Itachi’s.”

    And as I have stated before, the Raikage knows enough about Itachi to know to avoid that. Judging by the ammount of intelligence Kumo has on Itachi’s abilities, including prior knowledge of his MS, I don’t see why the Raikage would just go looking into his eyes. Let’s also not forget that Itachi has to activate his MS before casting Tsukyomi, so it’s not like he can just start the battle with one right away.

    I find it strange how every time a debate involves someone with the Sharingan, all these ideas come up that it is unstoppable. The fact is that it isn’t and that has been proven time and time again.

  77. Also Susanoo is already painful according to Sasuke is feels as if every cells is aching also if prolonged will take a MASSIVE Toll on the user. Also prolonged overuse with significantly blind the users.

  78. Putting aside the debate for a moment, there was something else I was thinking of.

    The whisker marks that Naruto shares with Kinkaku and Ginkaku are something I have always thought to be attributed to a consequence of sharing the Kyuubi’s specifically. But does anyone think that maybe it has something to do with The Sage of The Six Paths? Apparently, Ginkaku and Kinkaku have some distant relation to the Sage and when Naruto absorbed the Nine-tails chakra, he also has the appearance of the Sage. Are the whisker marks perhaps a sign of that heritage and is Naruto perhaps a direct decendent of some sort?

    The thing is, I don’t see any other Uzumaki or Senju with those marks and they are all distantly related to the Sages younger son and neither Minato or Kushina showed any such marks either, so Naruto couldn’t have gotten it genetically, so maybe it is the Kyuubi’s chakra that causes those Marks. But I just thought it was strange that Naruto and the Gin-kin brothers are the only ones who ever show them even though other filler characters (sora) who have been affected by the Kyuubi’s chakra, and previous Jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi, have not.

  79. @ Tenrai,

    the Kaku brothers and Naruto mix chakra with Kyuubi. That’s what creates the signature whiskers. That’s also why Bee has a horn on his cheek and Yugito had cats eyes.

    “Though, I have to disagree with you on Sasuke not breaking out of Tsukoyomi himself. Itachi even admitted only with someone of the same bloodline as him could effectively combat the jutsu. Itachi was trying to push Sasuke to the limit and test his abilities to their fullest powers. He might have held back on Sasuke but he wasn’t going easy on him and holding his hand throughout the fight.”

    It’s called keeping up appearances. When fighting Kakashi he indeed said only an Uchiha could resist Tsukuyomi, against Sasuke he said only an Uchiha with MS or EMS could fight him evenly. Itachi probably knew Zetsu was watching. What better way to fool Akatsuki than making them believe Sasuke was able to break Tsukuyomi. If he had stopped the technique out right Zetsu would have figured out Itachi was up to something else than trying to get the EMS. The last thing Itachi wanted was for Zetsu to intervene or, worse yet, call Madara.
    Sure Itachi was testing Sasuke but do you honoustly believe Sasuke just broke Tsukuyomi without having the MS? Even when considering Sasuke’s skills at using genjutsu, and therefore resisting them, aren’t exactly great? And considering Itachi was so skilled at genjutsu he could cast them with a finger?
    Face it, in terms of genjutsu, Itachi was in a league of his own… Well, not counting Madara that is.

    “Against Bee, on the other hand, Sasuke was being thwarted over and over again and Bee was only toying with him at the time. Even the Hachibi scolded Bee for not finishing them off and playing around. In fact, I would say Bee has essentially managed to “kill” Sasuke more times than every other character combined. Let’s not forget that Bee just wanted to get away from Kumo for a while and he used Sasuke’s attack as a means to that end. He was in no danger of losing that battle, that much I can assure you, even though Sasuke had a team on his side. I would say he is at least on Itachi’s level.”

    Sasuke had a bit too much confidence in that fight. A trait most Uchiha´s share, well, the Uchiha´s still alive at least. Sasuke obviously forgot the ass kicking he got in his fight with Gaara and the fight with Naruto. But seriously though. In the fight with Bee he was nowhere near Itachi´s level.

    “And as I have stated before, the Raikage knows enough about Itachi to know to avoid that. Judging by the ammount of intelligence Kumo has on Itachi’s abilities, including prior knowledge of his MS, I don’t see why the Raikage would just go looking into his eyes. Let’s also not forget that Itachi has to activate his MS before casting Tsukyomi, so it’s not like he can just start the battle with one right away.”

    Fair enough, A will be able to avoid getting struck by Tsukuyomi… Then what. A can’t attack Itachi’s Susano’o. When A fought Sasuke, Sasuke’s Susano’o wasn’t complete. It was only a skeleton in the beginning. During the fight Sasuke was able to make Susano’o develop further and grow ‘flesh’ and arms. In his fight with Danzo Sasuke was able to develop Susano’o a little more which gave it the bow but it wasn’t until Sasuke met Kakashi again before his Susano’o became complete and developed the full armour Itachi’s Susano’o had when Sasuke faced Itachi.
    A may be able to break Susano’o’s bones but can he get through a fully armoured Susano’o wielding the Yata no Kagami?

    Furthermore, as I said above, Itachi doesn’t need to look in someones eyes to cast genjutsu. Although not as strong as Tsukuyomi, Itachi’s other genjutsu are still quite formidable. Perhaps even as strong as Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi.

    “I find it strange how every time a debate involves someone with the Sharingan, all these ideas come up that it is unstoppable. The fact is that it isn’t and that has been proven time and time again.”

    Itachi hasn’t been stopped. Same goes for Madara. Sasuke was barely able to use the MS when he confronted Bee and had way too much confidence going into that battle. He probably thought that since he was able to defeat Naruto (who was seriously weakened from his fight with Oro and almost all out of chakra), Sakura and Sai, a sickened Orochimaru and barely surviving a fight with the weakest member of Akatsuki meant he was a bad ass.
    Seriously though, off course the Sharingan is stoppable but A and Bee are not exactly the ninja’s with the capabilities to do that. A would have had to kill himself to kill Sasuke who was, at that time, nowhere near Itachi’s level. The only technique Sasuke is probably better at is Amaterasu. Although we can’t say for sure since Itachi didn’t go all out on Sasuke and we haven’t seen him use it in a fight before.

  80. I think that the Kyuubi perhaps influenced a little bit while Naruto was in his mother womb. Considering the fact of the ten months pregnancy something different is expected to happen right.

  81. Well it seem like we got a debate on our hands. If I am correct we are debating over who is better out of The Cloud Brothers and The Red Eye Brothers.

    Sorry Mark but I am with the Black Guys on this one. Itachi and Sasuke are to great ninja’s but some of their major attacks depend on genjutsu which both brother have shown that they can easily get out of. Both brother have shown that they are great with taijutsu and have very good ninjutsu. Also showing that they can deliver great damage, take great damage and they seem the best candidates to handle genjutsu user.

    Also Bee and Raikage seem to work well together with each other. Not saying that Sasuke and Itachi can’t work well together but they would be at an disadvantage when it come to team work. This can cost them the match if they do not find a rhythm in the heat of battle.

    And as other might stated about Susanoo, it is a very powerful move but it is not unstoppable. Gaara was able to figure out its weakness in little to no time. The Raikage was there when Gaara told it, so he would know what to do with it. Danzo and Kakashi was also able to not be killed by Susanoo and still fight after it was gone, though the reason for that are different between the two. Just because that move is pulled out don’t mean its a hands down victory.

    The Uchiha’s are powerful but they are not the best. We only see them as the best because they are focus on so much. That would be the same for the Hyuga’s, Nara’s and the Inuzuka’s…well not the Inuzuka’s because my luck is not that good.

  82. @ Tai Night,

    Nobody has ever broken out of Itachi´s Tsukuyomi. Nobody has ever broken through the fully armoured Susano´o. Danzo suvived because of Izanagi. If it weren´t for the ultimate hax he would have died the first time Susano´o grabbed him.

    “Both brother have shown that they are great with taijutsu and have very good ninjutsu.”

    Which are both ineffective against Itachi’s Susano’o. But even without Susano’o Itachi has shown to be perfectly capable of defending himself against taijutsu and ninjutsu.

    “Gaara was able to figure out its weakness in little to no time.”

    Huh?! When did he do that. I can’t remember any of that and I remeber a lot.

    “The Uchiha’s are powerful but they are not the best. We only see them as the best because they are focus on so much. That would be the same for the Hyuga’s, Nara’s and the Inuzuka’s…well not the Inuzuka’s because my luck is not that good.”

    No, the Uchiha’s are considered the best because of the powers they wield and how fast they develop. Just look at Itachi, he became ANBU leader at age 13 and made Orochimaru, one of the most powerful and most gifted ninja’s from Konoha, look like a fool. The Uchiha’s are direct descendents of the Rikudou’s oldest son. Except for the Senju and the Uzumaki there’s no clan that produced ninja’s like Madara, Itachi and, the somewhat less impressive but still stronger than most ninja’s of his age, Sasuke.

  83. @Red: Kishi clearly foreshadowed Sasuke would break Tsukoyomi over 200 chapters before he did it. It wasn’t just Itachi letting him break it.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v16/c142/15.html
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c388/14.html

    Itachi was testing Sasuke so why would he let him break it? That kinda defeats the purpose of the test. Even if you choose deny the extent Itachi was willing to go to test Sasuke you can’t deny Kishi foreshadowed this event.

    Eh, let’s say Itachi’s only purpose was to free Sasuke of the Cursed Seal/Orochimaru and pass on his powers then weakening Sasuke with the Tsukoymoi, like he did Kakashi, would have been perfect right off the bat if he could do it.

    Also, you assume Itachi knew Zetsu was watching him and even if he did know Zetsu that well he would know Zetsu has a preference for not interfering in fights. I highly doubt Itachi was worried about what kind of show he was putting on for Akatsuki anyway. Akatsuki didn’t even want Sasuke dead so why would Itachi care if Zetsu figured out he lost on purpose? Zetsu was just there to report the outcome of the fight, nothing more. In fact, Madara knew Itachi would let Sasuke win the battle.

    Do I honestly believe Sasuke broke Tsukoyomi? You’re absolutely right in saying that Itachi was on a whole different level with genjutsu, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be broken by his little brother with eyes that hold the potential to surpass his. It was not just Sasuke breaking Tsukoyomi with his Sharingan anyway. As Kisu pointed out it was Sasuke’s Sharingan combined with the power of the Cursed Seal.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c388/8.html

    And I don’t see the correlation between how effective you are at breaking a genjutsu and being able to cast one. Naruto knows how to break genjutsu but does not know how to cast any at all. He can be effective at one while being completely defective at the other.

  84. @ Tenrai. I managed to escape your stomach and now i am back for round two. O_o

    “Firstly, Sasuke managed to mimic Rock Lee’s speed only after a month of training by kakashi to utilize it. So even though he coppied it from Lee, he still had to condition his body enough to handle that speed and even then, his body was worn out a lot faster because of the exertion involved using it. Sasuke won’t have a month to prepare to match Raikage’s own speed and learning his moves only helps him to a degree. If he can’t keep up with it, and his body isn’t conditioned for it, which it isn’t, then it can only help him so far.”

    You clearly missed my point. As we have seen, Sasuke obviously had enough speed and agility, to thwart Bee in his cloak, as he did naruto, and the Raikage. My point was sasuke is fast as well. But speed doesn’t always necessarily win you the match, as we have seen in many battles in naruto.

    Sasuke now has knowledge and experience in fighting both the Raikage, and Bee. He knows their attacks. However, neither bee nor the raikage know about kirrin. And by time they even figure it out during the fight what Sasuke has pulled off, it will be to late. All Itachi and Sasuke have to do, is fight from a distance, seeing as how bee and the raikage are short range fighters.

    “Sasuke was also abble to keep up with Itachi, let’s not forget that, and as Super said, it’s not like Itachi was simply trying to hold back to give Sasuke an easy win. If that was truly the case, he could have let Sasuke kill him long ago. He needed to know Sasuke was strong enough to actually beat him with his own power, not just because of a fluke. That’s why he waited so long and even tested Sasuke one last time to see if he was ready to meet him personally.”

    Madara stated himself, If Itachi were Serious, Sasuke would be dead. Enough Said. So my assumption about Itachi being just as if not faster then Sasuke, is still safe.

    “And as I have stated before, the Raikage knows enough about Itachi to know to avoid that. Judging by the ammount of intelligence Kumo has on Itachi’s abilities, including prior knowledge of his MS, I don’t see why the Raikage would just go looking into his eyes. Let’s also not forget that Itachi has to activate his MS before casting Tsukyomi, so it’s not like he can just start the battle with one right away.”

    So for some odd reason, The raikage though supposedly knowing about the Sharingan as you say, needlessly sacrificed his own left arm just to see if he could get through Sasuno and ameretsu? lol

    Though i wont doubt he does have Intel on Itachi and his eyes, i will say this. He obviously didnt know enough. 😉 And Itachi is a master of Genjutsu. There are more then enough maneuvers he can use to catch his opponent in Genjutsu, as proven when he caught naruto. Twice, by the way.

    And lets not forget, The raikage will have to avoid starring into the eyes of either uchiha. So unless h3 is MAITOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *gasp* O_o , who has specifically trained in countering the sharingan by starring at the feet of his opponent and predicting their movement, both bee, and the raikage, will be at a serious disadvantage.

    Excuse my grammar please. I am very lazy, and spell check is not working which for the life of me, i cant figure out why.

    “I find it strange how every time a debate involves someone with the Sharingan, all these ideas come up that it is unstoppable. The fact is that it isn’t and that has been proven time and time again.”

    Pffffffffffffft! I have no idea what on earth you are talking about. <_<

  85. I don’t usually get into debated but F it… I hate sasuke and the so called almighty uchihas…

    @1redbaron1: “ultimate hax”
    Isn’t that one of sasuke’s trade mark jutsus?

    “But even without Susano’o Itachi has shown to be perfectly capable of defending himself against taijutsu and ninjutsu.”

    From who? Sasuke? Don’t get me wrong, sasuke is pretty fast but you can’t seriously tell me that he is as fast as A or Bee.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-31674-12/naruto/chapter-463.html

    Amaterasu can’t keep up with the raikage (and unlike sasuke when he was fighting itachi, A was standing still). The only reason they both got hit is because A just was soo pissed that didn’t gave a f&ck and bee was in that huge-ass hachibi form that makes him slow.

    “Sasuke was barely able to use the MS when he confronted Bee and had way too much confidence going into that battle.”

    What about Bee? If having the second most powerful tailed beast inside you doesn’t make you over confident then I really don’t know what will. Even the way he moves (that linear pattern you guys pointed out) proves my point of how over confident this guy is.

    The guy wasn’t even fighting seriously and he almost killed sasuke. The only reason he transform into hachibi mode is the same reason people kill little innocent prairie dogs with hollow-point bullet.. OVERKILL

    @marksman: “So for some odd reason, The raikage though supposedly knowing about the Sharingan as you say, needlessly sacrificed his own left arm just to see if he could get through Sasuno and ameretsu? lol
    Though i wont doubt he does have Intel on Itachi and his eyes, i will say this. He obviously didnt know enough. ;)”

    Shi (or C) knew a lot about amaterasu… He even stated that sasuke could be better at it than itachi so i think it’s a safe bet to say that the raikage was well inform about it.

    You guys really need to take into account the fact that the raikage was in front of the one that killed his little brother. The one responsible for all his suffering and the one that make him call for a 5kage summit. To say that he was been reckless would be an understatement.

    I’m 95% sure the raikage knew what amaterasu could do to him and the only reason he kept going with the attack was because (for him) killing sasuke meant more than his left arm. Also, let’s not forget that the raikage almost killed sasuke with that sweet leg drop and the only reason Uchiha ” I always pull stuff out of my derriere” Sasuke survived was because Gaara came in and stooped the both. The raikage would’ve lost a leg but, at the end of the day, would still be alive.

    The one thing I hate the most about itachi is that NO ONE has ever seen him go all out so everybody just assumes how good he actually is. There’s absolutely NO WAY someone can beat a guy that’s pretty much a walking myth.
    Every time he fought “on screen” he was either “sick” or “not been serious” so what the hell?
    At which point do we stop using fact and start inventing stuff up so the almighty uchiha itachi lives up to the expectation we made up of him?

  86. *Sees Epic debate*

    *reads*
    *reads somemore*
    *gives up reading all the replies*

    I see this debate is full underway 😉

    Itachi and Sasuke’s best Attacking Options. Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susanoo

    Seem people are assuming that Itachi allowed Sasuke to get out of Tsukuyomi, but there is no point in this, what I meant by Tsukuyomi failing with bee is that if his mind (bee’s) is taken by Tsukuyomi, he has an alternative Consciousness that can take control his body as soon as Bee falls pray, and since their battle Bee knows that the Uchiha have a good idea of its abilities… Also Itachi can only control ones perception of time, he does not control time itself, though Kakashi felt it was 72 Days only a second went past for the rest. So with Good Team Work while Itachi is using his Chakra to attack Bee with Tsukuyomi the Brother will have Itachi open for attack and a split second is more then enough for Raikage to do a good deal of damage, at least enough to stop Itachi Chakra control, while the 8 Tails is still controlling Bee’s Body fully, meaning the Tsukuyomi will have 0 effect 😀 while this will effectively use up most of Itachi’s chakra making him useless in the battle where Bee and A are bother still basically full charged.

    Amaterasu this has been shown ineffective and highly damaging to the users eyes, is has been shown to burn slowly and is not unbeatable, if Raikage and Bee are able to dodge the Flames or even have objects obstruct the view of the Uchiha this will be a large energy drain again, and will probably begin causing blindness and Exhaustion but Bee and A will be able to defend it using lighting armor and bijuu cloak using less chakra and no damage to the user.

    Sasono most difficult one to defend against, but if Bee and Raikage can keep dodging with Speed far greater then Kakashi they will be able to wait it out and have both Sasuke and Itachi at a point of Exhaustion by using this technique.

    Kirin, its greatest disadvantage is the amount of time it takes to use. The preperation etc plus its a one shot technique, that means it will be ineffective against both and using this technique exhausts Sasuke, as the control used for Kirin is high, thus making him useless, it will be a one for one sort of move, if it hits that is or if Sasuke has the Time to prepare it and use it effectively, cause I am sure the Raikgae and bee wont just sit around waiting for his to build up the energy to use it.

  87. Bee also the Tailed beast Bomb!! I think if Kirin can get through Sasono, that will too 😉

  88. Wait, I don’t know why people keep saying Bee is faster than Sasuke and putting so much emphasis on his speed. In their fight not once did Bee outpace him. In fact, Sasuke deflected Bee’s attack while he was in his Bijuu cloak and tracked his attacks easily. Once Sasuke pulled out Amaterasu Bee was done. The only reason why he was spared was because Sasuke saved his teammate by cuting off Bee’s tentacle which allowed him to escape.

    We all know Bee kicked Sasuke’s ass in that fight but Sasuke didn’t have Amaterasu in the beginning of that fight and didn’t have Susano’o at all. He got taken down 2 times indeed and was helped by his teammates but he wasn’t fighting at full capability. Bee may have been playing around but it’s not like Sasuke was using everything he had in him.

    The 1st time Sasuke got taken down he didn’t know Bee could also use chakra flow and lightning element. The 2nd time he got taken down it was because he didn’t know genjutsu wouldn’t work and was surprised from behind. If Sasuke knew how to use Susano’o Bee’s beam cannon wouldn’t have even worked. I’m not making excuses for Sasuke’s fight. As I said before, he got his ass kicked. I’m pointing out now that he knows this information he wouldn’t make the same mistakes.

    @Pein: How would The Raikage know Itachi even used Tsukoyomi on his brother? He wouldn’t know and think to go in for an attack once his brother is in genjutsu. It happens in an instant and the only people that know are the one who’s performing it and the one who’s trapped in it.

    Also, we already addressed Bee in Itachi’s Tsukoyomi. Even if he’s in it for only a split second then that’s more than enough damage. If 1 second = 72 hours then you can understand why being caught in Itachi’s Tsukoymi period, unless you’re a true blooded Uchiha, makes it impossible to beat. What about The Raikage being caught in it? He’s so confident against the Sharingan I doubt he’d care whether or not he glances in Itachi’s eyes and he has no Bijuu to even try and bail him out.

    Using Kirin isn’t as exhausting as you say it is. The only reason why Sasuke was so tired was because he used it as a last minute surprise at the end of his fight after using most of his chakra up. All the chakra Kirin costs is the fire jutsu which I’m too lazy to look up. The brothers wouldn’t even know it’s coming beause they’d think Sasuke just missed shooting his flames off into the sky, like Itachi did. And Itachi is smart as hell. ;D

    Lastly, Kirin did not get throguh Susano’o but I do believe it’ll make Bee into nice fried octopus.

    @Supa: The Raikage would have only lost a leg!? Lol, the Raikage’s body was about to be engulfed in black flames from his attack. If you do a drop kick on a sheet of fire you think only your leg is going to be burned?

    @Anyone: The best advanate Sasuke and Itachi have are their knowledge and information on their opponents. Sasuke has fought both brothers and came out alive (thanks to help but the Raikage was saved too). Neither brother has fought Itachi. The best advanatge the Kumo brothers have are their teamwork but once again, neither of them have fought Itachi. Having information on him and fighting him are two completely different thnigs.

    Knowing how excellent of strategists the Uchiha brothers are and knowing that they have fighting information on both their opponents while the Kumo brothers can only say so for one of their opponents… Now that I think about it, neither The Raikage or Bee know about Sasuke’s full Susano’o either. Lol, think about how the Sasuke vs. Deidara match would have gone if Sasuke knew everything about Deidara (earth element, C4 C3, genjutsu prepared, etc…) and Deidara knew nothing on him besides what he heard. Itachi is that surprise element.

    Anyway, Bee attacks in a linear attack pattern and blame it on confidence but he stil does it. Last time I checked Bee is always confident so it doesn’t make a difference. He fought the same way against Kisame so it’s not like it’s a one time thing. Itachi would know it thanks to Sasuke and can hit him with Amaterasu as he’s coming straight at him. The Raikage and Bee both have to get up close to do any damage. Sasuke can spawn a Susano’o wrapped Amaterasu and burn off whatever limb is attacking him. I already mentioned Kirin and…what else? Ah, well if Itachi wants to look in Bee’s or the Raikage’s eyes then why not? It’s not like the Kumo brothers ever tried to avoid genjutsu. In fact, Bee should be pretty confident against it too thanks to withstanding Sasuke’s genjutsu.

    Whatever the Kumo brothers have Itachi and Sasuke are already prepared for it in advance, have the proper defense and counter attack, and have more trick up their sleeves.

  89. Sheesh. My English teacher could have only wished that I would have read this much back in school.

    X___X

  90. @ Super – Remember the Bee vs Sasuke it was the first time they faced off it won’t just be Sasuke that will be better prepared for this battle, same with Raikage both faced Sasuke and know the Uchiha moves since well Sasuke is like Itachi lite with mostly the same jutsu. The Raikage also knows a lot about Akatsuki in a sense, and Itachi’s murder of the Uchiha clan is famous throughout.

    Raikage vs Itachi may be difficult but I don’t think Itachi will have time to trap the user, we have never seen Itachi use his Tsukyomi in that situation where he trapped the user without hesitation, the Raikage simply wouldn’t stop, as u mentioned with Information I am sure that Bee would of passed on the Sharingan way of trapping its victims in genjutsu making the raikage more wary of the threat.

    Though it is addressed I am saying Bee will be effected heavily but it will only affect his brain not the tailed beast meaning in a sense Itachi is fighting a 1 vs 2 at this stage and not enough power to make a bijuu fall under genjutsu as well as Bee. Sasuke is too weak in Genjutsu to feature here.

    How is Itachi a surprise, his top jutsu are known the same as Sasuke’s. Itachi has not fought either Bee or Raikage? Both have Fought Sasuke, so in a sense u down their, saying Itachi is a surprise is useless he is more predictable. Plus Sasuke fought Bee and Rai alone not as a team, he has no idea what team work and how they would fight… maybe Bee and Raikage would first eliminate Sasuke as the weaker user and use that to distract Itachi, in the end Sasuke and Itachi would more likely act as 2 powerful fighters fighting while Bee and Rai will fight as a unit

  91. @super Bee stated that he was immune to Genjutsu
    Also if A hit that leg drop Sasuke would also die.
    Sasuke was giving everything he had.
    But he needed the Curse seal power in order to do it meaning A LOT OF CHAKRA plus he doesn’t have that any more.
    Bee style is linear but unpredictable.
    Sasuke only survived the fight with Bee because of help.
    Now unless Itachi or Sasuke Pulls a healing tech out of their ass.
    Also A and Bee have experience on there side in both teamwork and fighting.

  92. BOLLOCKS!!! BOLLOCKS I TELL YOU!!!

    *goes into a rage and starts hyperventilating*

    Lol, no I made my points and I can’t make anymore so I’ll let you all have the last words for the Kumo Brothers.

    @Pein: I’ll just leave off with this. I know the information gathered from the battles goes both ways (meaning Sasuke has knowledge on his opponents and vice versa). Itachi is the surprise element because they don’t know how he fights. Just because he’s Sasuke’s older brother and a Uchiha doesn’t mean ‘Hey, no worries we fought Sasuke so it’s like we fought Itachi.’

    Look at Naruto. He fought Sasuke but did that prepare him well enough for his encounter with Itachi? Sure the Uchiha brothers share a lot of similarities but they have different thought processes and fighting capabilities. Sasuke’s Susano’o does not have what Itachi’s Susano’o has. Sasuke’s Tsukoyomi can not do what Itachi’s Tsukoyomi can do. The Kumo Brothers can very well underestimate Itachi if they go off of what his little brother could do. Having intel on an opponent is a good start but gathering intel from actually fighting the oppenent is the best intel there is. Sasuke has the best intel there is on both his opponents and can share it with his brother. The Kumo Brothers just have the second-hand intel on Itachi gathered from stroies and other information.

  93. LOL talk about a big debate 😛

    If sasuke & Itachi v.s Raikage & Bee ever did took place , the uchiha brothers would win . However the best scenario would be sasuke being killed by the Raikage and Itachi killing both the Raikage and Bee as Revenge 😀 lol

  94. Lets make it fair and have Sasuke not know what Bee’s abilities since we are giving him MS.

  95. I have created a monster… X___x

    *Pats Super on the back to help him with his hyperventilating.* see, I told you it was therapeutic. <_<

  96. Supa: Black Ice says NO!. Mark and I have talked about this and I just don’t see Bee And A being beat by a Water Down Itachi and Itachi. All in all, A and Bee know more about the Uchiha’s then they know about A and Bee. Bother have fought Sasuke and A had his people find gather research on the Uchiha’s. This goes but ways but knowing which one can do doesn’t always mean that you can stop it.

    Bee and A have gone against Sasuke. And if it was one on ones, well we can crowd both of the victors. Bee would at least kill Sasuke 3 or four times before Sasuke start eyeball spiting black flames if helps wasn’t there. He would have been killed at least one or two times fighting A if before bring out The Almighty Sasono cover in black flaming eyeball spit.

    Also Both A and B have shown the genjutsu is none void, which take a huge chuck out of the Uchiha’s books of attacks. A has shown that he can easily dodge the black flaming eyeball spit and I am not sure but the cloak of the eight tails chakra could protect Bee.

    No matter what to me it would always come down to Sasono and though that move is cheap and broken, it is not unstoppable. As I stated earlier, Gaara knew its weakness the moment he stop talking to Sasuke when he said. “We don’t not have to fight him, that move seem to take a great toll of chakra to use. If we by our time, he well have to release it.” Now that might be more or less then what he said but the point still matter. A knowns this now and he knows first hand at how strong it is. Bee and him who do work better as a team would know to just by their time.

    The match would go something like this. It would start of back and forth but teams showing why they are very great ninjas. Sasuke would be the first to go because he is the weakest link. It would be two or one after that. Both A and Bee know of Itachi and I assume Itachi know of them too. But who got more information on who. Itachi would be more caught off guard then Bee and A because Itachi from what we known, have never fast to ninjas like them or consider to be on their level. Unlike Orichi who was weak against genjutsu. Itachi being the skilled person that he is might take out one but I don’t see him winning this better.

    If all else fail, through some dirt in their eyes and that will be about it.

  97. Not going to read everything again as I know most if it is just a repeat of what has been said earlier.

    @ Super,

    Try this, compare Itachi’s Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and on Sasuke in part one to the Tsukuyomi Itachi used on Sasuke in part two. Do you not see the difference there? No black moon, no alternate reality, no endless torture. Now try and keep up believing Sasuke was able to break Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. The Tsukuyomi Itachi used on Sasuke during their fight was as weak as Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi. He probably did want to test Sasuke but if he’d used Tsukuyomi to the fullest Sasuke would have been left lying on the floor in the foetal position, crying for his mommy.
    During the fight Itachi said to Sasuke that Sasuke would have only stood a chance if he had obtained the Mangekyo Sharingan. A fact made painfully clear as the fight progressed.

    “Madara stated himself, If Itachi were Serious, Sasuke would be dead. Enough Said.”

    Thanks Marks.

    As for Itachi keeping up appearances. Madara knew Itachi was going to lose on purpose but Itachi didn’t know Madara knew. Itachi acted out his part as Akatsuki member until he died.

    “From who? Sasuke? Don’t get me wrong, sasuke is pretty fast but you can’t seriously tell me that he is as fast as A or Bee. ”

    I wasn’t talking about Sasuke, I was talking about Itachi, who’s not only able to perform jutsu at near invisible speed but is also able to move and counter jutsu in the most efficient and fastest way possible. But if you want to talk about Sasuke. Indeed he’s fast too.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/357/8

    “Every time he fought “on screen” he was either “sick” or “not been serious” so what the hell?
    At which point do we stop using fact and start inventing stuff up so the almighty uchiha itachi lives up to the expectation we made up of him?”

    And even when he was sick and not going all out he was merely playing with Sasuke. Kakashi was no match for him. Orochimaru looked like a noob when he tried to molest Itachi and left Akatsuki out of shame. Now if that doesn’t make Itachi live up to the expectations we created I don’t know what does. Let’s not forget that Orochimaru was in his prime when he joined Akatsuki and is named one of the Legendary Sannin and a genius of Konoha. Same goes for Kakashi, he is considered a genius as well. The fact of the matter is that nobody has ever been able to lay a finger on Itachi.

    “what I meant by Tsukuyomi failing with bee is that if his mind (bee’s) is taken by Tsukuyomi, he has an alternative Consciousness that can take control his body as soon as Bee falls pray”

    We’ve never seen the Hachibi take over Bee so I won’t count that as a valid argument. Even when Bee fought Kisame and was out of chakra the Hachibi didn’t take over. Bee loaned the Hachibi’s chakra. If you want to take that direction I can make the assumption that Sasuke will simply supres the Hachibi’s powers like Sasuke did with the Kyuubi inside Naruto. Bee won’t have the Hachibi helping him at all and will have a serious disadvantage.

    “Also Itachi can only control ones perception of time, he does not control time itself, though Kakashi felt it was 72 Days only a second went past for the rest. So with Good Team Work while Itachi is using his Chakra to attack Bee with Tsukuyomi the Brother will have Itachi open for attack and a split second is more then enough for Raikage to do a good deal of damage”

    You still don’t get it. If Itachi’s Tsukuyomi hits, you’re done. End of story. No quitsies, no eraseies and most certainly no triple stamp. All it takes is an instant to keep someone locked in a 72 hour lasting nightmare. You decide how long that instant is. whatever the case, if one of the brothers looks Itachi in the eyes he will be out of the game.

    “Bee also the Tailed beast Bomb!! I think if Kirin can get through Sasono, that will too”

    LOL, Kirin DIDN’T get through Susano’o… At least know the facts before making claims. 😛

    So far I haven’t read a single great argument as to why A and Bee could defeat Itachi. And that is Itachi on his own. In this case he’ll even get assisted by Sasuke. Don’t get me wrong, if this was a cool contest I’d hand the victory to A and Bee. Itachi is subzero cool but Sasuke is so seriously uncool that the Uchiha brothers fall in between uncool and cool whereas A and Bee are both subzero cool.

  98. Wow I was to hype, that was hella grammar errors in my post before this.

  99. @Red: Yeah, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this. Itachi told Sasuke that he doesn’t have the Mangekyou Sharingan so he can’t compete with him? Well, he also told Sasuke he wanted his eyes and to gain the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Itachi knows how to lie and was clearly just goading Sasuke on.

    As for the illusion it matters not whether you’re stabbing someone multiple times or plucking out their eyeballs it’s still torture. Itachi did not use a weaker Tsukoyomi on Sasuke. The reason why it did more damage to Kakashi was because, once again, Sasuke was a true blooded Uchiha who could withstand Tsukoyomi and broke out of it much earlier.

    I can’t and wouldn’t say Sasuke was Itachi’s match because that’s not true. Sasuke could not cast genjutsu like his brother but as I showed earlier, how well you can cast genjutsu does not correlate with how well you are at breaking it. With that said, yeah Itachi’s eyes and fighting were a better match but that doesn’t mean Sasuke couldn’t break his Tsukoyomi with the help of the Cursed Seal.

  100. @Redbaron “If you want to take that direction I can make the assumption that Sasuke will simply supres the Hachibi’s powers like Sasuke did with the Kyuubi inside Naruto. Bee won’t have the Hachibi helping him at all and will have a serious disadvantage.”
    Then why didn’t he suppress Bee’s Chakra in the fight also Bee is the PERFECT Jinchuuriki. Kisame just so happened to be the perfect Jinchuuriki hunter.
    And Bee never got serious either.
    “You decide how long that instant is. whatever the case, if one of the brothers looks Itachi in the eyes he will be out of the game.”
    Also Bee stated he was immune to genjutsu. So no problem if he looks Itachi in the eye and could possibly do a fake out like he did Sasuke.
    Also, Itachi part 2 Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was to fool the readers, that’s why you didn’t see the different background.

  101. I don’t know if this theory counts… you guys can be the judges..

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-418-9/naruto/chapter-413.html

    asspullke just got bee on his tsukuyomi. We see bee on the illusion thinking “is this genjutsu”. One second on the illusion and he just knew what was going on and was able to free himself from it.

    I’m stressing this because you guys say that with itachi’s tsukyomi one second on REAL TIME is enough to make you insane but what if Bee is able to free himself from itachi’s tsukuyomi after only one second had gone by on “genjutsu time”? That would make tsukuyomi completely useless against him right?

    Also, i see what you guys mean about Sasuke been able to read every one of Bee’s moves

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-1/naruto/chapter-412.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-2/naruto/chapter-412.html

    I guess when you’re kishi’s favorite your arm can successfully block a sword, right?

    @super: “Once Sasuke pulled out Amaterasu Bee was done. The only reason why he was spared was because Sasuke saved his teammate by cuting off Bee’s tentacle which allowed him to escape.”

    The only reason sasuke was still alive was because he was saved from dying… twice.

    “The Raikage would have only lost a leg!? Lol, the Raikage’s body was about to be engulfed in black flames from his attack. If you do a drop kick on a sheet of fire you think only your leg is going to be burned?”

    I was quoting Gaara (at least the scan version I read when that chapter came out…) Gaara said that A had already lost an arm and thing would get ugly is he looses a leg (i’m paraphrasing).

    “The best advanate Sasuke and Itachi have are their knowledge and information on their opponents. Sasuke has fought both brothers and came out alive (thanks to help but the Raikage was saved too). Neither brother has fought Itachi. …….”

    Now isn’t that just too damn convenient for the uchiha brothers? If Sasuke can have the info on both the brothers and the mangekyo sharingan then why take itachi into account since he (sasuke) fought A and Bee after itachi was already dead and even got the mangekyo sharingan from seeing his brother die?

    @redbaron: “But if you want to talk about Sasuke. Indeed he’s fast too.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/357/8

    And this is the page after that one:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/357/9

    Deidara was able to dodge the attack. (Not block but completely dodge)

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-28731-3/naruto/chapter-460.html
    NOW that’s fast!

    GOD! Now i remember why i usually stay out of debated. It’s takes sooo much timeeeee!! I’m too lazy for this! So yeah i give up, this is too troublesome =).

  102. Lol, that’s how debate battles always are. We take all the character’s abilities, fighting experience, information, and equipment they have in the manga and the character takes that with him/her into the debate battle.

    It’s like doing a Naruto vs. Pein debate battle right now and all of a sudden saying Naruto knows nothing of Pein’s abilities even though he learned about them in the manga. He learned about them in the manga thanks to fighting Pein. This information is not lost in his mind when we do a Naruto vs. Pein debate.

    Ok, carry on. ^_-

  103. I agree with supertrek actually. Lets just agree to disagree.

  104. @ Super

    i quote itachi . “in this world All of space,time,mass Every Matter is under my control”

    If itachi could control mass and time there was no way Sasugay could have used oro’s curse mark and grow his wings and snakes etc unless itachi himself allowed that. Of course Itachi was “testing” Sasugay at some “level” but to state the level itachi was Testing Sasugay on was above Itachi’s own level is kinda strange O.o

  105. @ Debate – I have only a few things to say… 1) ARRRR My head hurts @___@

    2) Sharingan is a Super Ultra Hax when used by Itachi… Basically the argument could never be won as, Naruto super saiyan mode…. can’t beat Itachi, Sage of 6 Paths, can’t beat Itachi, Pein/Nagato, can’t beat Itachi. Even when 1 person has been proven to be immune to Genjutsu somehow Itachi still does it, and my point on the fact that Itachi could only trap Bee and not the 8 Tails mind seems to be relatively ignored… Genjutsu an attack on the User’s mind, when a user has two minds it only attacks ONE of the two… but anyways can see there is no winning a battle against Itachi, he does not get tired or go blind because that would be inconvenient . Somehow ultimate hax no jutsu wins it. That is probably why Madara lost to Hashirama <_< Sharingan can't be beaten 😛

    3) Information is a powerful tool when used correctly, Sasuke only knows so much about Bee and if we are in a position where we say Time is irrelevant to timeline in the story, Raikage is now part of the Shinobi Allaince fighting the Uchiha he has access to ALL there information, if Sasuke can have MS and know Bee and A I think its fair that Raikage has his arm and has all the information from the shinobi alliance. Making Itachi a known threat and he would not act recklessly, since bee was Toying with Sasuke and Raikage was fighting hot headed unlike a kage would, he had no strategy if put in a war situation he would be more tactical in battle…

    * Brain Fries *

  106. @ Ahsan – How you finding the World Cup!! See the England India match @__@ was insane

  107. “Sharingan is a Super Ultra Hax when used by Itachi… Basically the argument could never be won as, Naruto super saiyan mode…. can’t beat Itachi, Sage of 6 Paths, can’t beat Itachi, Pein/Nagato, can’t beat Itachi. Even when 1 person has been proven to be immune to Genjutsu somehow Itachi still does it, and my point on the fact that Itachi could only trap Bee and not the 8 Tails mind seems to be relatively ignored… Genjutsu an attack on the User’s mind, when a user has two minds it only attacks ONE of the two… but anyways can see there is no winning a battle against Itachi, he does not get tired or go blind because that would be inconvenient . Somehow ultimate hax no jutsu wins it. That is probably why Madara lost to Hashirama <_< Sharingan can't be beaten :P"

    AMEN BROTHA!

  108. “Then why didn’t he suppress Bee’s Chakra in the fight also Bee is the PERFECT Jinchuuriki. Kisame just so happened to be the perfect Jinchuuriki hunter.”

    The same reason why the Hachibi didn’t just control Bee when Bee was out of chakra fighting Kisame. Because he can’t. That was my whole point. ^__^

    “I don’t know if this theory counts… you guys can be the judges..

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-418-9/naruto/chapter-413.html

    asspullke just got bee on his tsukuyomi. We see bee on the illusion thinking “is this genjutsu”. One second on the illusion and he just knew what was going on and was able to free himself from it.”

    Read the rest of the chapter. You’ll see Bee didn’t free himself. Bee stated the Hachibi freed him from the Genjutsu. So if he was up against Itachi the Hachibi wouldn’t have been able to react in time and Bee’s mind would have been destroyed. As for the Hachibi taking over Bee’s body. Like I said before, we’ve never seen the Hachibi take control of Bee like the Kyuubi did with Naruto. We don’t know if the Hachibi even can take control. So no, that’s not a valid argument. If we’re gonna include assumptions I’m gonna assume Itachi can do more than Sasuke could with Amaterasu just because Itachi is better in all other aspects as well.

    “Deidara was able to dodge the attack. (Not block but completely dodge)”

    LOL, yeah and the swipe was obviously directed at Deidara but Sasuke missed completely but coincidently swiped completely through Madara. LOL
    FYI, He clearly targeted Madara. notice the 2nd panel which displays the trace Sasuke’s sword leaves behind. >__>

    “Sharingan is a Super Ultra Hax when used by Itachi…”
    Not just when used by Itachi,.. Or didn’t you read the fight between Madara and Konan.
    “Basically the argument could never be won as, Naruto super saiyan mode…. can’t beat Itachi,”
    True
    “Sage of 6 Paths, can’t beat Itachi,”
    False
    “Pein/Nagato, can’t beat Itachi.”
    False
    “Even when 1 person has been proven to be immune to Genjutsu somehow Itachi still does it, and my point on the fact that Itachi could only trap Bee and not the 8 Tails mind seems to be relatively ignored…”
    Bee is immune to regular genjutsu. No argument there. You keep dismissing the fact that Itachi’s Tsukuyomi is the ultimate genjutsu in the Narutoverse. Don’t hate us for it, take it up with Kishi. He’s the one who made Itachi’s Tsukuyomi so freakin powerful.

  109. @Redbaron

    “The same reason why the Hachibi didn’t just control Bee when Bee was out of chakra fighting Kisame. Because he can’t. That was my whole point. ^__^”

    Actually, the Hachibi himself stated that he was also out of chakra. Remember, Bee had been using his bijuu chakra that entire battle even more than his own, so it’s pointless to swap out in that case, but we have seen proof that the Hachibi can take control of Bee’s psyche, even though you say there is no evidence, and that was shown when he spoke to Naruto during his Bijuu training.

    “Bee is immune to regular genjutsu. No argument there. You keep dismissing the fact that Itachi’s Tsukuyomi is the ultimate genjutsu in the Narutoverse.”

    Yes, and one that has been broken before. As for Bee, he himself stated that genjutsu does not work on a Jinchuuriki who is in control of his beast. Note, he is refering to his own control of the Hachibi’s chakra and he does not simply say “some genjutsu, but not all.”

    So, until we actually have evidence to show that he can’t break out of Tsukyomi, that is a moot point at best because either side will always find an argument to swing it either way.

  110. @ pein YUP! The World Cup’s been going great ! England got raped by the Irish today 😀 that was an awesome match . I expect an RSA v.s PAk final 😛

  111. new chapter is out!
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/41199623/1

  112. “but we have seen proof that the Hachibi can take control of Bee’s psyche, even though you say there is no evidence, and that was shown when he spoke to Naruto during his Bijuu training.”

    We’ve never seen the Hachibi take over Bee like the Kyuubi used to do with Naruto.

    “Yes, and one that has been broken before.”

    No it hasn’t.

    “Note, he is refering to his own control of the Hachibi’s chakra and he does not simply say “some genjutsu, but not all.””

    No, he says in order to break the illusion he needs a partner who can disturb his chakra. With controlling the beast he means that the Hachibi works with him instead of against him like the Kyuubi inside Naruto.

    “So, until we actually have evidence to show that he can’t break out of Tsukyomi, that is a moot point at best because either side will always find an argument to swing it either way.”

    Give me proof he CAN break out of Itachi’s Tsukuyomi, then we’ll talk.

  113. @Redbaron

    “We’ve never seen the Hachibi take over Bee like the Kyuubi used to do with Naruto.”

    But we have still seen him take control of Bee regardless, so my point still stands.

    “No it hasn’t.”

    Sasuke broke it. O__o

    “No, he says in order to break the illusion he needs a partner who can disturb his chakra. With controlling the beast he means that the Hachibi works with him instead of against him like the Kyuubi inside Naruto.”

    Bee specifically said that Genjutsu doesn’t work against a Jinchuuriki who is in control of their beast. He doesn’t say some genjutsu don’t work, but not all. It was Jiraiya who said you need a partner to disturb the chakra flow specifically, but having a creature inside you that shares your chakra, is completely different to having a partner on the outside. I am just refering to Bee’s words as they are, nothing more. I don’t see why when Bee says something, we disregard it, but when Itachi says something about Tsukyomi being unbreakable, it becomes law. That seems a bit lopsided to me.

    “Give me proof he CAN break out of Itachi’s Tsukuyomi, then we’ll talk.”

    It works both ways Red, which is why I said it was a moot point at best, because both sides will always find a way to justify their own opinion on that specific matter. That’s why we have debates, to give our own views, so in my opinion, if Bee says genjutsu doesn’t work on him that is something I will use in my debate just like you use Itachi’s words in yours. There’s no difference in the end.

  114. “Sasuke broke it. O__o”

    No he hasn’t. At least not in my diagnosis. Like I’ve said before. Itachi didn’t use Tsukuyomi to its fullest against Sasuke. He needed Sasuke to win that battle. If he’d used Tsukuyomi like he used it against Kakashi and against Sasuke in part 1 Sasuke would have gone down. I’ve already explained the differences between the instances. Furthermore, read what Ahsan said. He hits the nail on the head. *Hopes that expression exists in the English language.*

    “Bee specifically said that Genjutsu doesn’t work against a Jinchuuriki who is in control of their beast.”

    No, this is what he said;
    “In order to break the illusion, I need a partner who can disturb my chakra and snap me out of it. My partner is the beast inside me. Illusions won’t work on a host who can control their beast”
    What that means is that the Hachibi snaps him out of it. Just like a regular partner would.
    With that last line he means that the Hachibi works with him instead of against him.
    For that reason, Naruto is still susceptible to genjutsu, even in his super saiyan state. The Kuuybi won’t help him like the Hachibi does with Bee. In Itachi’s Tsukuyomi that trick Naruto tried when he faced Itachi in part 2 won’t work either. If someone could escape Itachi’s Tsukuyomi simply by increasing his or her own chakra Kakashi would have done so in part 1. And Kakashi is considered a genius, expecially when it comes to seeing through genjutsu. Better yet, Kakashi knew he was in Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. The fact that he didn’t break out of it says it all doesn’t it.

    So that means I still haven’t seen any evidence that Bee could break out of Tsukuyomi while I have presented evidence proofing he can’t several times now. Nonetheless, seeing as this was first an Uchiha brothers vs Kumo brothers debate that turned into an Itachi vs Kumo brothers debate and is now nothing more than Itachi’s Tsukuyomi vs Kumo brothers debate I think I can safely say the Uchiha brothers would take this one.

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