Naruto Shippuuden 199-Enter the Five Kage

Hey everyone! Miranda here, covering for Tenrai, while he covers for Pickles. Is anyone glad as all heck that the anime is out of fillers? I am, but I was kind of happy for the fillers too. I just started college and the anime being in fillers gave me plenty of time for homework (which I should be doing now >.<) Anyways, forgive me if the breakdown sucks. I pale in comparison to Tenrai, and it’s been awhile since I had to write one.

So all the Kages are getting ready for the summit. We are introduced to all the Kages, of course we already know Gaara *wub*

There is the Tsuchikage, who is a cranky little old man with a bad back….

Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!

Then there is the Mizukage, who is a total babe…..except they animated her differently, I totally expected her to be a blond. *shrug* she’s still hot either way

Mizukage- She's bringing sexy back

And the Raikage is just as badass as you’d expect him to be.



The Raikage is complete and utter awesomeness

Then of course there is Danzo, bla. I have to say though, that wind jutsu thing he did was pretty cool. So Naruto wants to go talk to the Raikage and ask him to forgive Sauske, that’s just a bit of a waste of time. Sai actually has some feelings :O OMG!!

It's all squishy...I think I may have just pooped myself

 

Really much doesn’t happen in this episode, it’s a build up to the major things that are about to happen. I do have a question though. What is with the Mizukage and all the engagement stuff? Is that something I missed in the manga? I wasn’t much impressed with this episode, it was kinda boring IMO. But it’s what you should expect when they are setting up for a big arc. Well I guess that’s it for me guys, not very inspired this time around. Sorry. Everyone have a great week!

Miranda

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~ by Miranda on February 20, 2011.

64 Responses to “Naruto Shippuuden 199-Enter the Five Kage”

  1. First!!

  2. second *Sighs*

  3. Third! Still catching up on my anime.

  4. 4th!! Short and Sweet 😉

    The muzikage was shown in the manga to have a problem with men/engagement. She constantly was on Ao case lol

  5. Alright I just caught up and I must say I’ve enjoyed the past episodes and that very last filler with Sasuke kicking ass.

    That scene with Kakashi asking what the 4th said to his son was very well done and made me happy to see Naruto smile like that. I was always for Naruto’s decision to take that beating and I remember hating Sasuke for it. Still do but it was out of his hands. When Naruto takes that bow at the Raikage’s feet he still has my support then. He has my support up until…the hyperventilation. -_-

    Good breakdown Mandi and I hope college is going great for you! ^_^

  6. @Super

    You should try hyperventilating some time. It really helps releave stress and in some cases, boredom. o_O

    P.S. I recall Sasuke doing something similar at one point after finding out about Itachi…

    *Runs away.*

  7. @Tenrai

    Muahaha… I looked for the page as soon as I read your comment.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-403-8/naruto/chapter-398.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-403-9/naruto/chapter-398.html

    Sasuke coughs and faints, just like Naruto… They really are meant for each other… >:D 😈

  8. Lol, yeah I can see the similarities. Sasuke faints after waking up from an exhaustive battle and finding out moments later that the guy he’s been trying to kill for the past few years…his own brother…well…he ummm…was kinda just purposefully guiding Sasuke down a path of lies and hate just so he could goad Sasuke into killing him and believing his lies. Ah, and the best part is he succeeded! Itachi’s a genius afterall. Man up Sasuke! All you did was kill your brother who had your best interests at heart and you found this out after the fact.

    Naruto faints because he finds out the friend that betrayed him years ago may have to die!? Even worse! He may have to kill him! The guy that’s out for Konoha’s destruction may have to die!? O_O Oh why, oh why? 😦 Forget that Naruto has a ton of other friends! Forget em’ I tell ya! Sasuke’s the one!

    Now where’s that notorious page. Oh, here it is. ^_^

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c476/12.html

    After pointing out all those similarities between the two I’m exhausted and emotionally drained. I’m going to go hyperventilate now. Don’t judge me.

  9. @ Super – Hahahaha brilliant… think I wanna save that as one of the funniest comments I have ever read on wra 😛

    either way they both panseys of the Naruto world for doing that, a ninja must be hard core like Sasori… (remembers how Sasori died), like Deidara (yeah not helping)… Like Pain (remembers he was killed basically by a book and Hinata’s love) Like Madara (remembers early Tobi)

  10. @super

    Don’t worry. I won’t judge you. I may eat you though. I kinda expected that reaction. Lol.

    P.S. One thing. You forget that Naruto considered Sasuke as his brother. You also forget that it wasn’t only the news of Sasuke that was bearing on him at the time. I could make a list similar to your, but it doesn’t matter, because we will all think as we please.

  11. “All you did was kill your brother who had your best interests at heart and you found this out after the fact.”

    Did I miss something? In what universe did Sasuke kill Itachi?
    All I can remember is Itachi dying from a desease while Sasuke was just standing there wetting himself, realizing he never even had a snowballs chance in hell of defeating Itachi.

    And Naruto is the uncool one for hyperventilating… >__>

  12. @Tenrai: Nah, I didn’t forget those things just as surely as I can’t forget that Naruto never even had a brother so he “truly” doesn’t know what it would feel like to have one, or lose one. Sasuke was just a really close friend he felt extremely connected to and Naruto used the term “brother” once after a few missions together (a few thousand missions if you count filler…which we don’t). Remember, Naruto “thought” he understood Sasuke but later admitted he was wholly wrong.

    http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6885/61279648.jpg

    I’m glad he reverted to the term “friends” in the more recent chapters because that’s all they are and Naruto understands that now.

    http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/439/q1415.jpg

    I assume that’s why you use “considered” to state it was in the past, and all the news sitting on Naruto’s mind at the time had to do with Sasuke.

    Friendship is so beautiful. Especially when it’s one-sided.

    @Redbaron: Ja, and Sasuke pushing him to the edge had nothing to do with Itachi coughing up blood and dying…right…?

    http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6269/naruto8066.jpg

    I can see your point that it was only the disease that killed Itachi. The battle in which Itachi and Sasuke fought in (what battle?) did not lead to Itachi’s death, and I do recall Sasuke sipping Pina Coladas next to Zetsu while Itachi was randomly bleeding out.

    Yes, sometimes I do forget things.

    Seriously though I’m not bluntly saying Sasuke killed Itachi. I’m saying in Sasuke’s mind he killed Itachi.

  13. @super

    As I suggested before, you are putting far too much emphasis on the news of Sasuke as the sole reason for Naruto’s reaction.

    Let’s consider the fact that the kid had recently suffered the death of his master, underwent the pressure of saving his village and almost losing many loved ones in the process, as well as having the burden of changing the world all by himself dumped on his shoulders by everyone else, including his own father.

    Imagine being told that you are the chosen child and you alone have any hope of preventing the end of the world and tell me how you would feel.

    Let’s not forget that it was Jiraiya and Minato who taught Naruto to try his best to end that cycle of hatred, which he is also trying his best to do by preventing the death of his friend. Are you now going to blame him solely for doing what he was taught to do by his father and godfather?

    Let’s also not forget that he had to endure a painfully obvious false love confession from Sakura, one person he is in love with himself, and he is still being hunted by Akatsuki on top of it all off.

    Now, for some reason, he is not allowed to react to that kind of pressure, but Sasuke is free game? Let’s not forget that Sasuke was the one who caused his own predicament. He chose to pursue Itachi even though others warned him of the dangers of pursuing revenge. Why did he do it? Because he was taught to be hateful by his older brother right? Just the same whay Naruto was taught to be compassionate by his father and master. But we only ever excuse Sasuke’s actions because he was influenced, right? Because it’s so much cooler to support someone who wants to use every excuse he can find to be hateful and murderous rather than someone who wants to be forgiving and compassionate. After all, how lame is it to love others? It’s stupid, right?

    Well, I guess that is how it is in the eyes of some people. Being cool is determined by how many people you can kill. I just like Naruto’s character because some of his values are values I myself believe in. You can hate him for all I care, but to be honest, I don’t think you are considering just how strong the connection Naruto had with Sasuke was.

    Being related by blood doesn’t mean you can love someone more. For someone who never had any family at all, I imagine that loving others who are not related by blood is a bit easier than you seem think and losing them is just as painful.

    But meh. I am going to argue in an uphill debate, that much I know. So I’m just gonna leave it at that.

  14. @Ternai: You can start reading from here.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c476/9.html

    This is what was going through his mind before he started thrashing around in the snow. How can I put “too much” emphasis on the subject his entire thought process was concentrated on at that moment?

    Yes, Naruto underwent the pressure of saving his village and almost losing so many people. Now the entire village, after being brought back to life (gag), is praising his name and in the end he lost no one during that war. The one person he lost, Jiraiya, he already mourned for days. It must be hard being the hero (oh it is), and I’m sure the lingering pressure of saving the village and being hailed a hero was still weighing on his shoulders by the time he got the Land of Iron. Nobody wants all of that mess.

    Oh yes, he’s the chosen one too. As I recall Naruto does not believe in fate or destiny. Whatever burdens Naruto takes he takes of his own free will just as everyone else. No one is forcing him to chase after Sasuke. No one is forcing him to be good. He does whatever he feels right and this is common knowledge. No one can blame Minato or Jiraiya for their teachings. Someone as strong-headed as Naruto has the will to follow or not. I’m not blaming Naruto for anything besides being weak at such a crucial moment when Sakura has gone off and is about to be killed.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c482/2.html

    Lol, is he not allowed to react to that pressure? Of course he is and I would like to see how someone can disagree. Doesn’t mean I won’t get on him when he has a fainting spell over Sasuke because that’s where I believe his main concern was. I can’t buy that all of a sudden it was the pressure of Naruto’s “destiny” which got to him. In fact, the entire time he was at the Inn he was thinking of Sasuke…dreaming of Sasuke! Literally.

    Now, I don’t know who excuses Sasuke’s actions besides me and I don’t know when this became a “cool” contest *glances at Redbaron* but I’m not focusing on ‘OMGZ who’s cooler Naruto or Sasuke!?’ We all know compassion and love are awesome virtues. Hate and vengeance are not so much, but can be looked at as such for different reasons.

    There’s such a thing as too much forgiveness and compassion and yes Tenrai, it can be stupid. Just as there’s such a thing as too much hate and vengeance. Sasuke and Naruto are 2 different sides of a coin as we all know.

    Also, being related by blood does mean you can love someone more. Easily in fact. Personally, if my best friend and any one of my brothers were about to be shot and I could take the bullet for only one, I’d save my brother.

    Lastly, I don’t hate Naruto. I just find him obscenely annoying and naive to the point where it’s not admirable or unique anymore (pretime skip)…it’s just annoying.

  15. @Super

    “Oh yes, he’s the chosen one too. As I recall Naruto does not believe in fate or destiny. Whatever burdens Naruto takes he takes of his own free will just as everyone else. No one is forcing him to chase after Sasuke. No one is forcing him to be good. He does whatever he feels right and this is common knowledge.”

    Funny how you often defend Sasuke’s actions as being a result of his circumstances and then you say something like what you did above. I recall many debates we’ve had where you put the blame for his hateful feelings on Itachi and the like. You pass it off to worldly influences and circumstances, but the truth is, Sasuke also had a choice as well and no-one forced him to try and kill Itachi or seek revenge. He chose to do that on his own volition and that’s the bottom line.

    “Now, I don’t know who excuses Sasuke’s actions besides me and I don’t know when this became a “cool” contest *glances at Redbaron* but I’m not focusing on ‘OMGZ who’s cooler Naruto or Sasuke!?’ We all know compassion and love are awesome virtues. Hate and vengeance are not so much, but can be looked at as such for different reasons.”

    I also look for other reason’s behind Naruto’s actions, and just like you defend Sasuke’s, I defend Naruto’s for my own reasons as well. We are really just two sides of the same coin. It’s nothing personal, it’s just what we choose to see in each situation. I am making my views known, just like you want yours to be known.

    “Also, being related by blood does mean you can love someone more. Easily in fact. Personally, if my best friend and any one of my brothers were about to be shot and I could take the bullet for only one, I’d save my brother.”

    You are basing that statement on your own personal relationships, as opposed to seeing the bigger picture. It is true that you will have a deep connection with your brother, especially if you have grown up with a close bond with him and he has always been a part of your life, but for someone who has no other family, they tend to form the same kinds of connections with those they associate as the next best thing to having family.

    How you are talking almost makes it sound like people who don’t have families can never love others as much as those who do, which I feel is an unfair statement. It’s like saying if you adopt a child, that child will never be as loved as one who is born from your own flesh and blood. Imagine telling the child that, they would be devastated.

    “Lastly, I don’t hate Naruto. I just find him obscenely annoying and naive to the point where it’s not admirable or unique anymore (pretime skip)…it’s just annoying.”

    Funny, I feel the same way about Sasuke (post time skip). Lol. In any case, I just felt like debating. You will always be the defender of Sasuke, I know that much already, but it wouldn’t be right if I didn’t test you sometimes. Gotta keep you on your toes, otherwise you will get soft. 😛

  16. *tries to stay out of debate*

    Naruto killing Sasuke, or anyone killing Sasuke for that matter won’t lead to anything bad since Sasuke has cut all ties with everyone. The only thing even close to a friend Sasuke has now is Madara, and Madara only thinks of him as a tool. The only place I can see revenge coming from is one of those Konoha brats that lived the good life. A-hole

    *tasers self*

    That’s right, I’m staying out of this one.

    *walks away while whistling*

  17. @ Super – I must say I am on the fence when it come to hyperventilating Sasuke or Naruto to be honest…

    Itachi is to Sasuke what Sasuke is to Naruto, why else would Itachi trust Naruto of all people to eliminate the brother he loved if his plan had failed, he trusted Naruto with that Bird thingy X__X

    Sasuke is true to his belief in hate, he feels he needs revenge for that taken away from him. Does it justify his actions NO, think about it, if you are murdered for money, does motive justify it? Its interesting yes, and criminal psychology is something awesome to go into if you like to see thought process and motives to killers. but motive is used to catch and prosecute criminals not always to free them. I understand Sasuke and why he is doing the things he does, but it cannot be justified that he is doing good by it. (sorry of point kinda)

    Lets say your brother died, and your friend was always there for you looking after you helping you through, would you not care for that person. I think Naruto takes it too far but I am also cold in the sense that I believe you treat people as they treat you. Though we cannot put our own feelings in this, none of us have grown up with nothing, we all had families there for us etc.

  18. @ Kisu – im proud , u have self control. This I never knew @__@

  19. Naruto has shown to sacrifice anything for his team mates, even the chunin exams first test proved he was willing to remain a genin (which he has) to try help his friends

  20. @Kisuzachi

    Well, we weren’t really debating about killing Sasuke specifically, or whether he should or shouldn’t die, but oh well. You can take that up with Super, lol. 😉

  21. @Tenrai, that was addressed to a part of your comment.

    “Let’s not forget that it was Jiraiya and Minato who taught Naruto to try his best to end that cycle of hatred, which he is also trying his best to do by preventing the death of his friend.”

    That Uzumaki kid needs to realize there are no cons to killing Sasuke, only pros. After he realizes that then he needs to get laid, and not with Sasuke’s corpse.

  22. @ Kisu – As long as Sasuke Kills the Elderly leaders of Konoha first. Then I don’t mind what happens they need to die and he the only one that can do it @__@

  23. @pein, why do they need to die?

  24. @Tenrai: I’m not passing off Naruto’s actions without considering his circumstances. You already explained Naruto’s circumstances so you did the job for me already. There’s no reason for me to repeat them so I just reminded you that it wasn’t only Naruto’s circumstances which put him in this situation. It was his own choices too as you I know you will agree with because you’re always arguing from that point of view.

    And while I do argue about Sasuke’s circumstances I never disregard the choices that he made, and in past debates have made it clear that he’s responsible for those choices. I always point out though that we shouldn’t forget where he’s coming from because while you might prefer to argue it’s the choice “bottom line” I like to look at where that choice came from. We all know the different circumstances between Sasuke and Naruto but there’s a difference between their views. Naruto doesn’t believe in following any fate while Sasuke readily follows any path laid down for him. It’s both their own fault so let Naruto hyperventilate because he chose to chase after Sasuke and can’t stand his own failings.

    Lol, you recall many debates where I put the blame for Sasuke’s hateful feelings on Itachi? Jeez…I wonder how I came up with that ludicrous argument…>_>

    Now I know you’re expressing your opinion and all that and that’s completely fine. I expect plenty of defenses for Naruto from you and it’d be odd if you didn’t defend him tooth and nail, so of course it’s not personal. It’s just business as usual. ;D

    Finally the bond I’m pointing out between real brothers is not just a bond of blood. It’s a relationship that has grown with years. Years that Itachi and Sasuke spent together for instance. Naruto and Sasuke had what…? A few months together at most (and I’m being generous) and I’m not even half way convinced that Naruto’s feelings for Sasuke equaled the level of compassion 2 brothers have for each other after years of growth. You make it seem like they had the best relationship in the world or something. Lol, even with Sasuke and Itachi’s rocky relationship they shared more together than Sasuke and Naruto.

    Overall what I’m saying is that blood does matter. It’s a deep psychological mentality which automatically gives a relationship a leg up. It’s because people who are related by blood share a connection. I’m not saying those who are not family can’t love each other as one. I’m saying it can’t just happen so quickly and look what happens when Naruto goes all “You my bro” on Sasuke. He gets left unconscious under a waterfall and a learns a valuable lesson.

    Naruto was naive and lonely, that much is clear. Trying to say Sasuke is “like” his brother is cool and all because that’s how he “felt” though he never even understood Sasuke or family bonds. I won’t disregard Naruto’s feelings but I will take into consideration that he’s a stalker on par with the most rapid of fangirls. I mean, no one actually wants to die with Sasuke like Naruto does.

    “That Uzumaki kid needs to realize there are no cons to killing Sasuke, only pros. After he realizes that then he needs to get laid, and not with Sasuke’s corpse.”
    -Kisu

    *whistles and walks away*

  25. @ Kisu – Because I think justice must prevail, like Kira of Death Note or Even L, I believe that a person must suffer for the crimes they commit.

    Why does Sasuke deserve to die? He has done nothing truly wrong yet, well not in the sense of a genocide of an entire clan. More evil, killing an entire clan women and children or trying to kill Sakura, Karin @_@

    Sasuke needs to be stopped. and the elders need to be put before justice 😀

  26. Oh, that takes me back. The ‘Technically Sasuke hasn’t done anything wrong yet’ argument. Swiftly countered by the ‘His intentions are evil though’ argument. Lol, classic debate.

  27. @ Super – Who has Sasuke eliminated though?

    Deidara – missing nin
    Itachi – missing nin
    Orochimaru – missing nin
    Danzou – one of the main planners to the Uchiha massacre and not really a good guy either
    Karin – Orochimaru’s subordinate at one stage, kept prisoners etc
    Sakura – Was attempting to kill him
    Samurai – Attacked him
    Raikage – Attacked him

    He attacked anyone who went after him, think about it, while Akatsuki went after Naruto, ninja from Villages went after Sasuke, He wanted to leave Konoha and stopped Naruto from stopping him and taking him back a prisoner, he attacked Naruto again when Naruto/Sai etc went to try capture him yet again.

    Capturing Killer Bee was a mission given to him, you think if Kakashi is told to assassinate someone he stopped cause he didn’t want to do it? its the Ninja’s job to follow missions, Naruto been lucky since he never been assigned a assassination mission.

    and him wanting to kill everyone in the village… well he hasn’t done it yet, and it wouldn’t be the first time an Uchiha has lied. Itachi “on a whim” etc

  28. @Pein: You make wonderful points and you should know I argued the exact same points many times, lol, the exact same points.

    I should let you know you’re absolutely right too. If anyone thinks about it Sasuke hasn’t really done anything wrong besides betray his village and…defend himself? Oh yeah, betraying your village is a big step in the wrong direction but it hasn’t killed anyone in Sasuke’s case. In fact, he spared Naruto’s life when he left the village and Naruto has yet to thank him. ~_~ The only fault one can find with Sasuke are his “intentions” and unquenched thirst for vengeance. You see, when I was reminiscing about this classic debate I was just giving you a heads up on how your points would be countered if anyone was inclined to.

    There was an especially adamant debate on the mission given to Sasuke to capture Killer Bee involving the implications of all the moral wrongs vs. a ninja carrying out his duty to the mission.

    Lol, anyway I completely agree with you. ^_-

  29. @pein karin didn’t attack him. He was trespassing and that why the samurai attacked him. Also there a don’t compare Madara’s “mission” as something legitimate. Also, the Raikage is parallel to his own, he wanted revenge for his brother.

  30. @super and Pein

    Wonderful points indeed. I guess we can just write off Itachi’s act of killing of his entire clan, including women and children, as simply a mission then.

    Funny Pein, but you were always one of those who were very outspoken about that particular event and about how terrible an act it was. But I guess it wasn’t so bad at all, right? Because as soon as an act of murder against someone who isn’t a ditrect threat becomes a mission, it’s no longer a problem, I guess. O__o

    Funny what you can get away with when you simply use the excuse saying “someone else made me do it” even when the truth of the matter is that you have a choice.

  31. @Kanton: Pein never said Karin attacked Sasuke. Pein said,

    “He (Sasuke) attacked anyone who went after him”

    Karin never went after Sasuke so that’s not why he stabbed her. He stabbed her to kill Danzo. He succeeded in killing Danzo and later intended to kill Karin but she was spared (thanks to Sakura). In the end he only killed Danzo (the dictaor) and almost killed one of Orochimaru’s loyal servants who ran one of his bases where he experimented on human beings. He tried to kill her because she was a threat to his safety if she was taken in and questioned.

    And those Samurai were given fair warning but they didn’t listen and still attacked Sasuke. I don’t blame them…they were only doing their jobs afterall and I completely understand why they attacked, but they definitely take part of the blame for their own deaths.

    @Tenrai: But it was a mission. Trying to compare Itachi murdering his own clan and Sasuke capturing a Jinchuuriki is quite the feat but they were both missions. No one is writing off Sasuke’s mission as “okie-dokie” but it’s not something “evil”. As Pein said, do you think for all these years Konoha has never sent its ninja to capture, assasinate, torture or sabatoge people it saw as enemies? Lol, ninja like Kakashi, Ibiki, Minato, Jiriaya, Tsunade, and so on…were those evil acts too? It’s no excuse they were just following orders as long as it’s for a “good” cause I suppose. Konoha’s cause at the expense of others. >_>

    I’m sure they have their reasons. Everyone has their reasons to justify their own actions. I for one think the act Itachi did was bad. He could have handled that in a much better way by not killing the children who would be too young to remember or be involved in the coup. I think of Sasuke’s mission neutrally. This is a manga about ninja! I just can’t get peeved about a find and capture mission.

    @Sasuke: I know, I know the man is devrpived and crazy. He’s practically insane with vengeance and a thrist for blood now which I will never defend. Kishi has made him fail numerous times at killing people that were important to the storyline for a purpose though.

  32. @ Super – yeah I wasn’t meaning it to come as a complete defense @_@ I was just trying to understand the level of evil Sasuke had committed, I started read Naruto from chapter one and I am there where Sasuke stands in for Naruto in the land of waves against Haku. I am not sure what came over me @_@ its a genjutsu I am sure, the same one Kishi is under lol.

    What I am trying to say the actions Sasuke has done is no worse then say Kakashi has done against the other villages, at some point Suna/Konoha where enemies, so where them and the Stone nations yet is was Gaara who said they should learn to work together and forgive each other… Its the same as the Hyuuga leader killing a cloud ninja now because his actions caused the death of his brother… (Same thing Raikage wanted of Sasuke) is that fair? Is it fair now with all the nations holding hands and singing kumbyja (spelling failure for the win) but if we look at history they where enemies just like Madara/Sasuke/Kabuto are now, is it fair that they can now ask for forgiveness while the rest of the world suffers. I would like to see the ninja system continue after this arc, since there will be no need for high level ninja if the SA win

    @ Tenrai – yes I know, I do hate the act of genocide and I was just putting out facts of Sasuke’s life so far, intention or not, they where all ninja that could defend themselves, murdering innocent women and children (like Sasuke wants to do) and Konoha had done is where I cross a very serious line, Death is death no way around that, murder is murder and the act can not be excused unless it is done in defense, but what sickens me about the Uchiha Genocide was people where killed just for being born a certain way, and some of them had no training as ninja, they where just citizens, children, mothers etc. A ninja can defend him/herself from the attack of another, and a ninja make a pledge to fight to protect its nation/comrade etc with their lives if need be, I hope somewhere there is a dying light inside Sasuke and that he will turn to good again and until his actions of killing innocent for his own gain, under no order or threat, Killer bee he was ordered to capture and the Kage’s attack he was threatened…

    *Tries hard to get out of this genjutsu*

  33. @Super

    All the countries causes are at the expense of others, Konoha’s and otherwise and that even includes Amegakure as well. That’s why the whole theme is about breaking that cycle, I guess. I would never defend the killing of the Uchiha or any other such acts, to be honest, and I agree with you about how henious an act it was. But I am sure you know that already.

    I was simply showing that you cannot always defend ones actions through that kind of reasoning alone. I wouldn’t have retorted if it wasn’t put as basically as “It’s alright because it was a mission” because it is never that simple. But, as I said, Sasuke hasn’t done anything unredeemable yet in my eyes, but that doesn’t mean everything he has done is passable either.

    I am not peeved about Sasuke’s actions either, although I am sure it may sound like it sometimes. The truth is that I actually appreciate his role in the story as an antagonist/rival type character, because without those types of characters, the plot would be pretty empty. It doesn’t mean I necessarily like his character or agree with his actions, but all stories need a good villain, don’t they?

    (I think this is the longest debate we have ever had on an anime breakdown) X__x

  34. @ Tenrai – the anime has been bringing up a lot of moral debates @_@

    like I said murder is murder there is no way around that but in the end like you too said sasuke hasn’t done anything that puts him past forgiveness and the acts he has done where rif in the old ninja world…

  35. @Pain, justice serves the majority, yeah? Why should the elders die for protecting the majority? It was either kill the Uchihas or everyone else would die, possibly creating a Fourth Ninja War. You do realize that all of this is not the elders’ fault, its Itachi’s for not completing his mission and killing Sasuke as he was ordered. The elders did the right thing.

    “Why does Sasuke deserve to die? He has done nothing truly wrong yet, well not in the sense of a genocide of an entire clan. More evil, killing an entire clan women and children or trying to kill Sakura, Karin @_@ ”

    Well, try telling that to at least 14 widows who lost their Samurai husbands/boyfriends thanks to Sasuke.

  36. @ Kisu – if it was for the good of the Village why hide it? Why pretend nothing happened. Hitler killed 6 million jews for a majority of Germans, was he a good person… (gotta love the hitler arguement 😛 ) I mean in Rwanda where the Tutsi’s where killed by the Hutu (majority) was it morally acceptable because its the majority, if Itachi killed the leaders and ninja of the Uchiha I would understand, that would illiminate the threat for the time being but women and children too! Why, that old couple that owned the shop?

    The Samurai, and the ninja Uchiha knew and made a pledge to fight and die it was something they knew could happen anytime but a child/woman helpless in bed murdered for just being born different is cruel and worse crime then any Sasuke has committed. Me and Tenrai are seen as Minorities in our countries do we not deserve to live too as equals?

  37. @pein

    I think what Kisu was saying was that they made that choice for the majority because if they hadn’t the majority would have died.

    Hitler killed the Jews because of his racism and also so he could get their riches, not to prevent the Germans’ deaths.
    In Rwanda, the Hutu killed the Tutsi because they were slaves and that’s not right either. Maybe they could have negotiated? Anyway, I’m not a Hutu so I don’t know how it feels.

    No matter what, the Elders’ choice isn’t right. There had to be a better choice. They could have simply killed Sasuke’s dad and the people organizing the coup d’etat. Like you said, no need to kill the innocent infants, women and old people.

  38. Hey, this is sexism. There are plenty of women ninja just as deadly as…oh wait, this is Naruto. Nvm, leave the women alone they’re no threat.

  39. @pein, as far as we know, the entire Uchiha clan was in on it. The logical exception would of course be the children. Surely wives would know what they’re husbands are up to. Killing the entire clan was the best choice since the Uchihas are always involved in conflict in some way. Remember who started the war between the two sons of the Rikudo Sennin? Remember who attacked the Village with the Kyubi? Remember who tried the same thing again a few decades later? An Uchiha. Frankly, I would’ve given the order to kill them all years ago. They clearly can’t be reasoned with as Sartobi tried that. They also can’t be satisfied, as the Village elevated them to “National Hero” status and gave them their own section to live in. They’re power-hungry, the best way to handle them was killing them all. Harsh, but true.

  40. @ Dragon – In a coup de tate, would there truly be widespread bloodshed, yes there was a chance of war but how is then different from after the Konoha Invasion or Pain Invasion. A coup in general sense is when a group tries to take power by military force usually going after the leaders etc. So who would of lost power. The elders/leaders, who blood would of been shed the elders, who was unwilling to share power the elders. They did not talk to the Uchiha as I stated earlier why would they it would cause more problems for them, cause then the Uchiha would know they had a traitor and be better prepared for an attack.

    Hitler portrayed the jews as enemies, it was their fault we lost the war, they the reason you all starving (during the great recession) it was the jews fault that the germans did not have enough room etc. He used propoganda to create a villain from the jews and not only that he said that all jews man, women and child where exactly the same, same assumption the Village/Elders had on the Uchiha. It was the British Government that made the Tutsi’s have power in those years and yes the Tutsi’s enjoyed an easier life, but de colonization had happened and the Hutu’s held onto old hatred and used that to kill off the Tutsi’s again because they are different…

    This is the problem with Racism, you create an ideal of people based on a physical characteristic that they cannot control and eventually you begin hating the other because they are “different” That is what makes the Uchiha Genocide a genocide it was the elimination of a group of people, ethnic cleansing as the Germans or Hutu would say.

  41. @ Kisu – Just a few facts

    The Senju AND THE UCHIHA wanted peace, the Uchiha got ride of there most powerful member (who apparently is immortal) while the Senju began to create a dictatorship with only people gaining power was those with their views… (similar to the Dictatorships of Communist Russia etc) The Senju/the elders had liked to have power and kept it away from any other clan or people who thought differently to them. “Bell test”

    “as far as we know, the entire Uchiha clan was in on it.” There is no evidence to support this and even if they where it means at least the Uchiha where open with their dealing, and does it really matter, if only the Ninja could actually do anything about it? Children knowing doesn’t mean they where just evil.

    “Killing the entire clan was the best choice since the Uchihas are always involved in conflict in some way.”

    Or you could of systematically eliminated the leaders, but they knew the Uchiha was too strong give them dangerous missions etc, or hand over some power slowly integrate the clan into the leadership. “always” is a bad word to use… 1st Shinobi war? Started by the Uchiha, how about the 2nd? or 3rd? did Uchiha die for their Village “Obito” Yes!! where they responsible no.

    “Remember who started the war between the two sons of the Rikudo Sennin”

    The younger brother got all the power and the other became the servant, would u be happy with that, your parents die and your brother gets everything and you get nothing, I think its natural to feel bitter…

    “Remember who attacked the Village with the Kyubi? Remember who tried the same thing again a few decades later?”

    Both of these times the act was done by 1 Uchiha, 1st time he wanted to leave and Hashirama battled him 2nd time for revenge, but the 2nd Hokage was a Senju and used Edo Tensei. Does that mean all the Senju are evil?? or just 1?

    They clearly can’t be reasoned with as Sartobi tried that. They also can’t be satisfied, as the Village elevated them to “National Hero” status and gave them their own section to live in.

    Basically they where segregated, treated like criminals under house arrest, National Hero is a joke, they where treated like Naruto was in a sense. should of been a hero but instead despised.

    They’re power-hungry, the best way to handle them was killing them all.

    Really power hungry? why is it only one had MS? why is it they didn’t just kill off the people closest to them to gain the ability for power? If they wanted to just kill of the entire village and rule themselves why not just leave the village and form a new one “Sound Village” they wanted to be given a place of power too. In the end it was the elders greedy palms on the power that cause this, they didn’t want to give up that power and because of steriotypes based on the racist belief that all Uchiha are the same.

    Again I bring forward the Obito case, he was a good person! but he was Uchiha. Look at Danzou on the other hand given power and what does he do, steal the sharingan eyes of all the dead uchiha (or a lot of them) work with Orochimaru and doesn’t help Konoha against Pain… should his entire clan and family die because of his actions or is he an individual capable of his own thought?

  42. @ super – hahahaha yeah I guess I should say. non ninja woman and non ninja children 😛

  43. @Kisu

    Sorry, but this is where I jump in. <_<

    "Killing the entire clan was the best choice since the Uchihas are always involved in conflict in some way. Remember who started the war between the two sons of the Rikudo Sennin? Remember who attacked the Village with the Kyubi? Remember who tried the same thing again a few decades later? An Uchiha. Frankly, I would’ve given the order to kill them all years ago. "

    Basically, what you said there sums up the typical ideas and nuances that lie behind all acts of discrimination – judging a whole race of people by the actions or behavior of a few individuals. If Konoha based its actions on that way of thinking all the time, there would be no-one left alive in the village, because, let's face it, the Uchiha weren't the only clan who had traitors that betrayed Konoha.

    Let's not forget about Orochimaru, or Mizuki, both of whom threatened the safety of Konoha on a large scale (If Mizuki managed to get their scroll out, it would have meant many of Konoha's secrets would have been revealed.) I am sure there have been many other traitors in the past as well, as is the case with all hidden villages. You can't just go around slaughtering everyone for that. So when any other Konoha ninja acts against the village, only they are hunted for their crimes and no-one else. But when an Uchiha does, it suddenly their whole race must suffer? You say they should have been killed long ago. For what? For the actions of one man? That's like saying all Americans who live in the state of Texas should die because one of them betrayed their country, or saying that if a child's father commits a crime, the child must be killed for it as well. It is completely ludicrous.

    If you actually think about it, there were only three Uchiha problem makers throughout history before the planned coup. One being the first son of the Sage (And I don't know if he was even considered an Uchiha yet), the second being Madara and the last being Fugaku Uchiha, who tried to stage a coup and I am sure there have been just as much trouble makers in every other clan too. All the rest of the time, the Uchiha only ever wanted peace. They even banished their own former leader because he was a trouble maker and yet you call them power hungry when the whole time, they were trying to turn over a new leaf, as it were. One of them was power hungry, that's all.

    What do the leaders of Konoha go and do? They discriminate against the entire clan for the actions of one man, just as you are now suggesting is correct. If you ask me, it was the leaders of Konoha who were sowing the seeds of war, just as much as you could blame anyone else and it was the same exact way of thinking that you are using in your own reasoning, that caused this problem in the first place. Yet you exempt them from punishment for that, while condemning only the Uchiha to death when really both sides are really to blame.

    I will agree that it would have been a better idea for the Uchiha to first address Konoha's leaders about their misgivings before taking any action beyond that, but the same could be said for both sides. Suggesting that the Uchiha should have been killed long before then even – before they even though of staging a coup – is just completely senseless.

  44. “The Senju/the elders had liked to have power and kept it away from any other clan or people who thought differently to them.”

    I got nothing to say about that since I use that argument whenever I wanna vilify Konoha haha.

    “Or you could of systematically eliminated the leaders, but they knew the Uchiha was too strong give them dangerous missions etc, or hand over some power slowly integrate the clan into the leadership. ”

    Negotiations were carried out. Surely Sarutobi presented them with good options, but they chose to fight instead. Also, eliminating the leaders of the Clan would only anger the other members and make them less discrete. A band of powerful ninjas with no leader seems like a disaster just waiting to happen no?

    “1st Shinobi war? Started by the Uchiha, how about the 2nd? or 3rd? did Uchiha die for their Village “Obito” Yes!!”

    Uhm, all ninjas die for their villages. Its what being a soldier means yeah? I’m going to take a page from your book here my fellow Pain fan and use an analogy. Its like a soldier winning a battle, then immediately killing all of his comrades. Should he be left unpunished for his past act of valor or should he be punished?

    “The younger brother got all the power and the other became the servant, would u be happy with that”

    What? The older brother got the better powers. All the Sage did was give the younger his mission to bring peace. Sorry, but I’d take those spiral eyes over a strong “body” any day of the week. Also, despite the Sage’s wish for peace, his older son forgot that and started a war with his younger brother because he was jealous and power-hungry. No he wouldn’t be his younger brother’s servant, he’d be his younger brother’s ally.

    “Really power hungry? why is it only one had MS? why is it they didn’t just kill off the people closest to them to gain the ability for power?”

    Because not every average Joe knew about the Mangekyou.

    “If they wanted to just kill of the entire village and rule themselves why not just leave the village and form a new one “Sound Village” they wanted to be given a place of power too.”

    Because they wanted control of the Village they helped form. Why go out and start a minor village when one of the 5 Great Villages was up for grabs? Its kind of established that the Uchihas wanted complete control of the Village.

    “In the end it was the elders greedy palms on the power that cause this, they didn’t want to give up that power and because of steriotypes based on the racist belief that all Uchiha are the same.”

    I think you’re a tad confused here. You do realize that the Elders are just advisers to the Hokage and have no real power right? The Hokages are the ones holding on to power, only passing on the position to those that hold the same beliefs as themselves. The Elders were okay with Danzou being Hokage even though he’s like the night to Sarutobi’s day. The Konoha Elders aren’t evil in any sense of the word. They’re protecting the majority of the Village. Just look at every time they’ve appeared. It’s usually to stop Tsunade from making a stupid/questionable/sentimental decision (logically, the right thing to do with Naruto is keep him in the Village and not sending him out where he can be captured and cripple Konoha’s strength).

    “Again I bring forward the Obito case, he was a good person! but he was Uchiha. Look at Danzou…. Pain”

    Dude, Danzo helping Konoha is the same as this situation. A teenager gets drunk and wrecks your car, you buy another one and give him it knowing full well he’ll only wreck it again. In this scenario, the Hokages are the teenager, the car is the Village, the alcohol is sentimentality and the crash is the village being invaded. Danzo decided instead of helping and giving Tsunade the car keys, he’d have her license taken away and start driving himself. Just look at how many f-ups Tsunade has since she became Hokage.

    “should his entire clan and family die because of his actions or is he an individual capable of his own thought?”

    Danzo’s whole clan (if he even has one considering how submerged in the shadow he is) clearly aren’t a threat since they dont seem to want revenge for his death. They clearly aren’t as powerful as the Uchiha either, so its really a moot point.

    “Basically, what you said there sums up the typical ideas and nuances that lie behind all acts of discrimination”

    Tenrai, consider the context of this story. Their morals clearly aren’t like ours. I’m speaking as someone born in their world. In our world something like that is atrocious and shouldn’t be, but theirs is a world where children idolize murderers and thieves and are trained to kill when they graduate middle school. Killing the whole clan was the best option in-story is a vast majority of the Clan seem to be selfish, self-serving, power-hungry jerks.

    “You can’t just go around slaughtering everyone for that. ”

    I never said that. Look at it this way. Imagine all the members of Al Qaeda (lets say a few hundred) are in one location, and they’re planning a terrorist attack where thousands of lives will be lost. Where they are is inaccessible for troops and the only way to take them out is by bombing. Some of them have their wives and kids there, what would you do? Would you call off the attack and doom thousands of lives because of that or carry it out and sacrifice their lives to save many many more? Any sane person would choose the latter. Now imagine the Naruinverse where people care less about human life than we ever could. Yeah.

  45. @ Kisu – Wow long rely… *puts on reading glasses*

    “Negotiations were carried out. Surely Sarutobi presented them with good options, but they chose to fight instead. Also, eliminating the leaders of the Clan would only anger the other members and make them less discrete. A band of powerful ninjas with no leader seems like a disaster just waiting to happen no?”

    What I meant by systematic is send them on S Ranked missions like invade the Rain Village etc. There death could be covered up as acts of a ninja etc. I still doubt “proper” negotiations even took place, you planning to take over a village and the leaders of said village come up to u and say “hey I know this is a secret plan but lets negotiate?” that would make little to no sense, u loose your ability to surprise the enemy and tactically its stupid, what should happened was the acts of reintroducing the Uchiha into society not idol promises for crumbs when the uchiha wanted real changes.

    “Uhm, all ninjas die for their villages. Its what being a soldier means yeah? I’m going to take a page from your book here my fellow Pain fan and use an analogy. Its like a soldier winning a battle, then immediately killing all of his comrades. Should he be left unpunished for his past act of valor or should he be punished? ”

    Of course, but this analogy has one major flaw, is it right for the general of the army to kill all his soldier just because one had gone rouge? or eliminate one section if it was only the action of one that caused harm and the others fought bravely? If Obito survived did he deserve to die because Madara was evil?

    “What? The older brother got the better powers. All the Sage did was give the younger his mission to bring peace. Sorry, but I’d take those spiral eyes over a strong “body” any day of the week. Also, despite the Sage’s wish for peace, his older son forgot that and started a war with his younger brother because he was jealous and power-hungry. No he wouldn’t be his younger brother’s servant, he’d be his younger brother’s ally.”

    well actually I think the power was split evenly but the Younger Brother was given the power to rule and it was a slap in the face of the older, again his crimes do not justify his children being murdered for it.

    “I think you’re a tad confused here. You do realize that the Elders are just advisers to the Hokage and have no real power right?”

    If this was true then why was it not Sarutobi’s choice to kill the Uchiha or not he was forced into making the decision, They have a lot of power same way the secretaries in government have real power. If not why do they exist, it would mean the Hokage is a complete totalitarian etc. Saying they not evil because they protect the majority is not an excuse, a person should protect all, if you a cop, you don’t say I will serve and protect most people the rest can suck it, u do your best for everyone not just most.

    Tsunade drunk driving. Lol I laughed there… Well maybe the Uchiha felt the same as Danzou they where sick of seeing weak leadership and decided to do nothing during the 9 Tail’s attack <_< but the point is Danzou should not care about what he agree or doesn't agree with, his job is to protect the village, you don't take the car away before the crash don't wait for it to happen or while it happens tell the kid he can die now. Tsunade made mistakes but no leader is perfect, and Danzou should of judged only after the village he loves and wants to protect so much was safe. Its hypocritical saying i am killing you to save your life?

    In the end the Danzou point is you shouldn't kill of major sections of your society for the acts of one man, if the Hyuuga, Nara, etc wanted to have a Hokage, they powerful clans so why don't they deserve it? and should Hinata, Neji etc all be killed if one Hyuuga is evil or Shikamaru etc if one Nara is evil.

    Would you destroy your entire crops from a year and scorth the earth if you had one weed among it, or do you eliminate that weed?

    In the end yes it is just a story, but like all of us each person in the story are humans, they should still be a value to life, and if you argue against it then you may never object to Sasuke's actions, NEVER!! cause its a story where people kill and die 😛

    Who's lives where at risk? you have said already the soft nature of the previous Hokage's had cause the loss of many lives, now the Uchiha want to take power for the good of the village (and themselves) if the Hokage fights the Uchiha to keep power well then there will be a war but if he gave the Uchiha the same chances to rule as he had then it would not be a war, the Uchiha would not, once they had some form of power and leadership roles, continue to kill the villagers, there would be no need, again it is the power hungry ninja of the Village Elder and Hokage's that caused this, giving up some power would of been enough and then when the time is right look to a form of election, give all the ninja an opportunity to know and give power to the most deserving not just hord it to yourself

  46. I think the true hatred of the Uchiha will have something to do with Kagami Uchiha, He is the only character from Team Tobirama not later seen… I am suspicions of him being Tobi @__@

  47. @Debate

    Oh, for the love of gingerbread cookies!!!. Why do you people have to have such long posts?!?!?!? X___X

    *Knows that mine are long as well.* <_<

    @Kisu

    I will just reply to what you addressed to me directly and leave the points shared between you and Pein for you two to handle.

    "Killing the whole clan was the best option in-story is a vast majority of the Clan seem to be selfish, self-serving, power-hungry jerks."

    Really? How many people from the Uchiha clan can you actually name that portrayed that kind of attitude or behavior? I bet you couldn't name more than ten who acted that way with evidence to back up that claim, if even that many. That point is purely based on an assumption and nothing more and, once again, you are judging an entire clan based on one or two individual's actions. There is a difference between having pride in your clan and being arrogant, after all and a lot of clans show pride in who they are.

    "I never said that. Look at it this way. Imagine all the members of Al Qaeda (lets say a few hundred) are in one location, and they’re planning a terrorist attack where thousands of lives will be lost. Where they are is inaccessible for troops and the only way to take them out is by bombing. Some of them have their wives and kids there, what would you do? Would you call off the attack and doom thousands of lives because of that or carry it out and sacrifice their lives to save many many more?"

    Firstly, you are suggesting that extreme measures should be taken before any attempts at negotiations or peace talks are considered first. Secondly, Konoha had full access to the Uchiha and they weren't cut off by land or sea as is the case in your example above, so there was no risk of collateral damage if they simply chose to take out the instigators of the coup while sparing those who weren't involved. Thirdly, you suggested that they should have been killed ages ago – as in, even before the planned coup – which to me is even more unjust, because that is more like saying "let's kill them for the sake of killing them and not because they are a threat." You also based that idea solely on the actions of one or two trouble makers, and nothing more. If you like, I could copy and paste your own words to show you exactly what you said.

    Tell me Kisu, if one person from a specific race, religion or nationality does something wrong and the rest of his people banish him because of it, does that mean it is better to bomb that country, or wipe out that race solely for that one individual's actions, just to make sure they don't cause any potential problems? Because that is basically what you are suggesting. The example you gave above doesn't even come close to being a fair comparison.

    Just for the sake of our debate, let me give you another, less extreme example of how the matter could have been handled, should negotiations have failed or been out of the question. They could have had Itachi carry out his mission, as he had before, only in this time only the shinobi who were a threat would be killed, leaving the children or those who weren't a part of the coup out of the equation. After that, Itachi could have left the village and acted as the scapegoat as he did before, while the leaders covered up the incident as an alleged attack committed by one of the Uchiha's own. The survivors would see Itachi as the enemy and would not suspect that it was just a mission given by the higher ups and needless innocent bloodshed would have been avoided, because only those who were a real threat were eliminated.

    After a short time, they could have then staged Itachi's capture and public execution, just to appease the masses and then everyone would have moved on with their lives, while, secretly, Itachi goes free and lives the rest of his life wherever he choses.

    Even this isn't what I would consider ideal, but it is just an example of how one can avoid shedding the blood of innocents. The bottom line is that the elders didn't even try to think of alternative solutions, nor did they try to negotiate. They simply committed genocide and justified that action based on what I consider to be a shallow sense of reasoning.

  48. Despite being about the cruddy anime, the anime section sure gets a lot of debates.

  49. @Pein, this one’s gonna be a doozy so get ready.

    “what should happened was the acts of reintroducing the Uchiha into society not idol promises for crumbs when the uchiha wanted real changes. ”

    The Uchihas were considered the pinnacle of ninja ability and competence. Simply having the last name “Uchiha” gives you preferential treatment and makes people hold you in high regard. It doesn’t sound like they were as segregated from the rest of the Village as you make it sound.

    “Of course, but this analogy has one major flaw, is it right for the general of the army to kill all his soldier just because one had gone rouge?”

    Actually, you misunderstood the purpose of my analogy. It was meant to show that despite the Uchihas’ past subordination to the Village, they are still not above the law. I assume they did a lot for the Village, but they can still be punished like the average criminal.

    “well actually I think the power was split evenly”

    No, the Sage’s Ocular powers and spirit was passed on to the older son while his body was passed on to the younger.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-462/12/

    “If this was true then why was it not Sarutobi’s choice to kill the Uchiha or not he was forced into making the decision”

    Because just like in real life a leader doesn’t say “Screw you my trusted advisers, I’m making my own goddamn decision”. He took his advisers’ advice.

    “if you a cop, you don’t say I will serve and protect most people the rest can suck it, u do your best for everyone not just most.”

    Of course you don’t. You try to serve everyone. But what happens when you have to make a choice? What if 2 buildings are burning; one has only a baby trapped inside while the other has 2 people trapped inside, and you can only get to one building. You go for the one with 2 people. A leader has to protect everyone, but when a situation arises where that is impossible, a leader MUST ensure that he can protect a majority of his people.

    “but the point is Danzou should not care about what he agree or doesn’t agree with, his job is to protect the village, you don’t take the car away before the crash”

    No, it really isn’t his job. Its the Hokage’s job and the ninja under him/her. Danzo isn’t even an elder. He has his own private militia that executes Konoha’s more “questionable” objectives, but he isn’t sworn to defend anyone. I agree, you don’t take the car away before the crash, you take it away after the crash if the person doesn’t change. For Danzo, Tsunade ruling was the same as Sandaime ruling, nothing changed so he took the car. Every leader makes mistakes, but when a leader’s reign only consists of mistakes, then its time for that leader to step down. I ask, name 2 things Tsunade ever did to make Konoha stronger/safer/better. She’s the one that allowed Sasuke to live, she’s the one that allowed the Village to be destroyed, she’s the ones that caused so many villagers their lives.

    “should Hinata, Neji etc all be killed if one Hyuuga is evil or Shikamaru etc if one Nara is evil.”

    No but if the entire clan is planning an attack on the Village that will leave countless non-ninja and ninja villagers dead, then they should be eliminated. The Uchihas weren’t solely judged on the actions of Madara. They were spied on by Anbu and it was revealed that they were all planning a Coup d e’tat, that could escalate into another Ninja War. You do realize that a few hundred Uchihas could’ve caused the deaths of millions right?

    “In the end yes it is just a story, but like all of us each person in the story are humans, they should still be a value to life, and if you argue against it then you may never object to Sasuke’s actions, NEVER!”

    I never said it was “just a story”. I said before anyone makes arguments they should consider the context of this story. Wars happen more frequently, their values are different from ours and they have no objection to creating child soldiers. One of the reasons Hitler is considered so evil is because he gave children guns and told them to defend Berlin. In the Naruinverse no one cares that children are being trained to kill and die for their villages. Life means less in the Naruinverse than it means in ours. I can still object to Sasuke’s decisions because in-story what he does is frowned upon.

    “again it is the power hungry ninja of the Village Elder and Hokage’s that caused this”

    No its the power hungry Hokages that caused it. The Elders are just advisers. We’ve seen countless times where Tsunade overturns their decisions just like that.

  50. Lol. Wow….

    It’s like the “Third Great Debate” wars in here.

  51. “I bet you couldn’t name more than ten who acted that way with evidence to back up that claim, if even that many.”

    Actually, I couldn’t even name ten Tenrai, because not even ten are named. But from those that have been named, only 3 Uchihas aren’t shown to be power-hungry, hatred-filled lunatics; Obito, Itachi and Mikoto. I’m not even sure about Mikoto since she most likely knew what her husband was planning. Lets not forget that the Uchihas started distrusting Itachi when he refused to spy for them. That’s the point that Fugaku started focusing on Sasugay.

    “Firstly, you are suggesting that extreme measures should be taken before any attempts at negotiations or peace talks are considered first.”

    You can’t talk to radicals Ten. As long as someone believes in what they’re doing, talking is almost assured to fail.

    “Secondly, Konoha had full access to the Uchiha and they weren’t cut off by land or sea as… involved.”

    Then the clan would retaliate because they’d think the Village was against them no wouldn’t they?

    “Thirdly, you suggested that they should have been killed ages ago – as in, even before the planned coup”

    Well, I can’t really say anything about that since it was just my hatred for the Uchiha talking there. But If I was in charge I’d take them out after the Kyubi attack since its pretty clear that only Hashirama and the Uchihas can control that overweight fox.

    “Tell me Kisu, if one person from a specific race, religion or nationality does something…. problems?”

    A race is made up of millions of people correct? A clan may be made up of what like 80-100 people(?). Taking out millions of people for one person’s actions is ludicrous. Taking out a 100 people for the actions of their leader seems far more logical, especially if this clan has a habit of being led by power-hungry radicals (Madara and Fugaku).

    “Just for the sake of our debate, let me give you another, less extreme example of… eliminated.”

    But then what would stop the Uchiha from rising up again? This situation would have to be repeated over and over again. Its more effort than its worth. and blame it on Kishi’s asspull writing.

    “The bottom line is that the elders didn’t even try to think of alternative solutions, nor did they try to negotiate.”

    Even if the Elders did not consider negotiation, Sarutobi did and carried it out to no avail. It was a tough call, but someone had to do it.

  52. @Tenrai, Third? What was the First and Second?

  53. @Kisu

    “You can’t talk to radicals Ten. As long as someone believes in what they’re doing, talking is almost assured to fail.”

    They weren’t radicals. They were trying to live in peace just like everyone else.

    “Then the clan would retaliate because they’d think the Village was against them no wouldn’t they?”

    They didn’t manage to do much against one thirteen year old child. Why do you you think those circumstances would change just because the target was changed? I already gave an example of how it could have been handled.

    “Well, I can’t really say anything about that since it was just my hatred for the Uchiha talking there. But If I was in charge I’d take them out after the Kyubi attack since its pretty clear that only Hashirama and the Uchihas can control that overweight fox.”

    Once again, you are suggesting killing an entire group of people for one man’s actions. I won’t even bother repeating what I said about that before, because even you just admitted that it was your hatred for the Uchiha talking there. I think it is that same hatred fueling your entire debate, to be honest and we all know how hatred for something can dampen our view of things.

    “A race is made up of millions of people correct? A clan may be made up of what like 80-100 people(?). Taking out millions of people for one person’s actions is ludicrous. Taking out a 100 people for the actions of their leader seems far more logical, especially if this clan has a habit of being led by power-hungry radicals (Madara and Fugaku).”

    Changing numbers doesn’t make it more logical. Murder is murder, even in the hundreds.

    “But then what would stop the Uchiha from rising up again? This situation would have to be repeated over and over again. Its more effort than its worth. and blame it on Kishi’s asspull writing.”

    Hmmm… I don’t know. Maybe if they stopped treating the Uchiha with discrimination and segragating them from the rest of the village, that would be a good start. It was Konoha’s leaders who started this whole problem and they could have easily fixed it by simply treating everyone fairly. In fact, if it wasn’t for the Second’s decision to push them into a corner, none of this would have even started. Instead, they chose genocide in the end. You keep forgetting that Konoha’s leaders sowed the seeds of war as well and yet you praise them for their actions. If one person becomes a criminal, punish that criminal. Konoha knew that the Uchiha clan excommunicated Madara, yet they still discriminated against them for Madara’s actions. That seems a bit dumb to me.

    “Even if the Elders did not consider negotiation, Sarutobi did and carried it out to no avail. It was a tough call, but someone had to do it.”

    There is no proof Sarutobi even attempted to negotiate with the Uchiha. That is just another assumption. Sarutobi may have been against the plan, but we have no evidence to show that he tried to stop it, or that he tried to find another solution. I still think Danzou had a part in this whole situation with Shizui’s eyes and I still think that truth may come out a bit further down the line, but even still, it isn’t something I can simply say was good or even necessary.

    “@Tenrai, Third? What was the First and Second?”

    The first would probably be Naruto vs Itachi debate, which happened on IRA during his battle with pein. The second would probably be the Kakashi vs *Insert any character name here* debate… <_<

  54. “I don’t know when this became a “cool” contest *glances at Redbaron*”

    It wasn’t me…

    *Points to Kantonkage.* He did it!

    “They didn’t manage to do much against one thirteen year old child.”

    Itachi wasn’t alone. Evil overlord and master of all hax was with him… Where do you think he got all the eyes from…

    BTW, wasn´t this a Naruto vs Sasuke debate? What the hell happened in here?

    The way I see it Kishi tried to make Sasuke the bad guy one could care for. Problem is, nobody cares about cry-baby Sasuke after he got so easily turned into a tool by Madara. I considered Sasuke to be a cool character, even when he decided he wanted to take the path of revenge. All it took was one talk filled with a few lies and Sasuke turned from “I’ll do as I see fit” into “I’ll do anything Master Madara tells me to do because I’m a pansy and can’t think for myself anymore”. >__>

    As for the current debate,

    There’s only one person to blame for the Uchiha’s massacre. Uchiha Madara. His actions at the start of the Naruto storyline where what caused the Konoha elders (and Danzou) to become suspicious of the Uchiha. Before that the Uchiha were only being monitored to make sure another ‘Madara’ wouldn’t rise to try and take over Konoha. Wrong? Yes. Discrimination? No.
    Besides, when I think back to the night Madara attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi I can understand why the elders would be suspicious of the Uchiha. Where were the Uchiha when the Kyuubi pranced around inside the village? And, more importantly, how did Madara find out Kushina was going into labour? There were only a hand full of people who knew. One of them was Sasuke’s mother. I’m not trying to play the blame game here but how does that not raise suspicion.

    “There is no proof Sarutobi even attempted to negotiate with the Uchiha. That is just another assumption.”

    No, it’s something Madara said. Whether that’s a lie remains to be seen. Personally I think Sarutobi indeed tried to negotiate seeing as he always tried to solve problems in a peaceful matter.

    “I still think Danzou had a part in this whole situation with Shizui’s eyes”

    I doubt it. Itachi killed Shisui just a few nights before the massacre. I don’t think Danzo got his greedy little hands on Shisui’s eyes that quick. Furthermore, it’s not like Danzo tricked Itachi into killing Shisui because Danzo would have needed Shisui’s eye for that. Itachi had made up his mind before he killed Shisui. It is possible that Danzo accompanied Itachi on the fatefull night, seeing as Danzo had also collected a few Uchiha eyes and Madara saying they hadn’t seen each other since that night.

  55. “Problem is, nobody cares about cry-baby Sasuke after he got so easily turned into a tool by Madara”

    What we in the West call being a cry-baby, the Japanese consider being cool. The Japanese like girly men more than we Westerners do as well (just look at all the Bishonen guys in anime), which is one of the reasons Sasugay is so popular over there. And lastly, they think because he keeps powering up with little effort that makes him even cooler, while Naruto is less cool because he has to keep training his ass off power. The Japanese are weird. No offense >_>

    @Tenrai:

    “Changing numbers doesn’t make it more logical. Murder is murder, even in the hundreds.”

    Changing numbers makes all the difference. If you won some money but you’re forced to choose to burn $100,000 or $10, but get to keep the one you didn’t burn, which would you choose?

    “Maybe if they stopped treating the Uchiha with discrimination and segragating them from the rest of the village, that would be a good start”

    Except, they really aren’t segregated. There’s no law stopping them from roaming around, the people idolize them and they’re given power in the form of the Uchiha Police. That doesn’t sound too bad to me.

    “In fact, if it wasn’t for the Second’s decision to push them into a corner, none of this would have even started.”

    The Second did not make it clear that pushing them to one side of the Village was his attempt at separating them, so they didn’t see it that way until much later. But look at things from his perspective. Your brother was just attacked by the former leader of the Uchiha Clan and barely won, wouldn’t you suspect his former clan to be in on it? Its not like good ol’ Tobirama ordered their execution, he just put them under surveillance, which could’ve just as easily removed that suspicion as it could’ve strengthened it.

    “You keep forgetting that Konoha’s leaders sowed the seeds of war as well and yet you praise them for their actions”

    They saved thousands of lives and only lost a few, what’s not there to praise? Its because of their decision that kids like Konohamaru and Naruto and the other supporting characters grew up instead of dying young.

    “Konoha knew that the Uchiha clan excommunicated Madara, yet they still discriminated against them for Madara’s actions.”

    No they watched the Uchiha because of Madara’s actions. The Uchihas’ suspicious behavior is what caused them to slowly be more and more distrusted.

    “There is no proof Sarutobi even attempted to negotiate with the Uchiha. That is just another assumption.”

    OBJECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its in the manga that he did ^_^

    “The second would probably be the Kakashi vs *Insert any character name here* debate”

    Ah, ye old Kakashi debate. That explains everything.

  56. @Kisu

    “Changing numbers makes all the difference. If you won some money but you’re forced to choose to burn $100,000 or $10, but get to keep the one you didn’t burn, which would you choose?”

    You’re comparing money to human lives? Wow, that isn’t even worth replying to… O_o

    “Except, they really aren’t segregated. There’s no law stopping them from roaming around, the people idolize them and they’re given power in the form of the Uchiha Police. That doesn’t sound too bad to me.”

    But they knew that the only reason behind those illusions of power, was so that they could be watched and controlled. Being treated unfairly under the guise of good will, is still the same regardless of how you sugar-coat it. All Konoha’s elders had to do was consider that. Maybe if they spent less time dedicating their forces to watching the Uchiha, they would have noticed Orochimaru cloning babies and performing ghastly experiments on their people a lot sooner. Funny how the innocent (and I use that term in context of their involvement of Madara’s actions) are suppressed while the real threats are allowed to operate without any concern of hindrance.

    “They saved thousands of lives and only lost a few, what’s not there to praise? Its because of their decision that kids like Konohamaru and Naruto and the other supporting characters grew up instead of dying young.”

    They could have saved even more while losing even less if they just thought it through properly. But they chose the greater of many evils before even considering any other options. I might have been able to consider your reasoning if the elders at least tried to negotiate or reason, or find another solution first, but I see no evidence that they did, so I can’t.

    “No they watched the Uchiha because of Madara’s actions. The Uchihas’ suspicious behavior is what caused them to slowly be more and more distrusted.”

    What suspicious behavior? The Uchiha weren’t behaving out of the normal. Only Madara was posing any real threat at the time.

    “OBJECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its in the manga that he did ^_^”

    Show me links. I only read that he was opposed to the idea. I read no part that showed any details of how he tried to stop it or, as you put it, negotiate with the Uchiha.

  57. @ Kisu – hahaha another long one, wonder if their will be a book written on the debate war 😛

    Read these Pages
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-7/naruto/chapter-399.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-8/naruto/chapter-399.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-10/naruto/chapter-399.html

    When reading this does it seem the Uchiha wanted war or peace? Not Madara, the Uchiha!

    “The Uchihas were considered the pinnacle of ninja ability and competence. Simply having the last name “Uchiha” gives you preferential treatment and makes people hold you in high regard. It doesn’t sound like they were as segregated from the rest of the Village as you make it sound.”

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14/naruto/chapter-399.html

    does this seem like a well respected? This makes it evident being an Uchiha meant you could never rule, and you had no part in leadership. Is it fair? They where just grouped together and slowly killed off from any sort of power, their natural abilities made them feared, similar to Kimmimaru, Haku etc but just because you powerful doesn’t mean you where treated well.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-15/naruto/chapter-400.html
    Itachi wanted it to seem that the Uchiha where a proud people to the village, if it hadn’t been for that Sasuke would of been treated with the same racism and hate that the Uchiha where treated with before.

    The Brothers Equal power I didn’t mean they got the same powers but that the Eyes and body abilities are equal in strength, or else one would of just won the war…

    “Because just like in real life a leader doesn’t say “Screw you my trusted advisers, I’m making my own goddamn decision”. He took his advisers’ advice.”

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-17/naruto/chapter-399.html
    It shows here the 3rd Hokage was overruled by who the elders and the Anbu leader Danzou, remember these where his team mates too

    It also shows here that the Uchiha where treated badly and thus bad blood occured. The Uchiha where treated as criminal and discriminated against before they started plotting a coup and it was that, that drove them to action. Same way it happened in South Africa etc, you can’t expect to treat a group of people like 2nd rate humans, move them from their land and exclude them from the society for being different, that pisses them off!

    “Of course you don’t. You try to serve everyone. But what happens when you have to make a choice? What if 2 buildings are burning; one has only a baby trapped inside while the other has 2 people trapped inside, and you can only get to one building. You go for the one with 2 people. A leader has to protect everyone, but when a situation arises where that is impossible, a leader MUST ensure that he can protect a majority of his people.”

    But in this situation, it is as though you see a fire starting and instead kill the baby so its not a problem later, instead of trying to save both when they had a chance. Or even a better analogy would be starting the fire yourself and then saying you did it to make space and let the baby burn to death… harsh but that would be a better analogy for the situation.

    This is not a debate on how good a leader the elders elected in Tsunade, but I do want to show that Danzou is a ninja under the Hokage, HE is a part of the Leaf and it is his duty to protect it anyway necessary, like I said he was willing to kill the village to protect it? makes no sense. A weaker Konoha would fall victim to more outside attacks and Danzou would of been destroyed… How is Pein destroying a Village any different from the Uchiha wanting to rebel? Both Weaken the Village. Plus if Naruto was in the Village and they gave him to Pein there was no guarantee that Pein would not still destroy the village.

    hey were spied on by Anbu and it was revealed that they were all planning a Coup d e’tat, that could escalate into another Ninja War. You do realize that a few hundred Uchihas could’ve caused the deaths of millions right?

    You do realize it could of been avoided if the elders had not treated the Uchiha as 2nd rate human beings and if they where willing to give up some leadership positions? You do know that the Uchiha wanted to take power not kill the entire village, they wanted the village to continue under a new rule, not unlike Danzou felt about Tsunade and wanted to rule?

    “Even if the Elders did not consider negotiation, Sarutobi did and carried it out to no avail. It was a tough call, but someone had to do it.”

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-9/naruto/chapter-400.html
    It is never said that Sarutobi went to the Uchiha, in fact he was trying to the Elders to negotiate! but their prejudice and racism made it so that they wouldn’t listen.

    “A race is made up of millions of people correct? A clan may be made up of what like 80-100 people(?). Taking out millions of people for one person’s actions is ludicrous. Taking out a 100 people for the actions of their leader seems far more logical, especially if this clan has a habit of being led by power-hungry radicals (Madara and Fugaku).”

    But what is truly the difference here, say 100 people deserve to die for the acts of 2, so by this mathimatical logic you are saying 20 Bad justifies the murder of 1000, 200 Bad justifies the murder of 10000, and 2000 bad justifies the murder os 100 000, so it will continue.

    Let me give another example, look at the middle east, there is a lot of conflict there, Arab nations etc, Al queda is made mostly of Arabs and I would think there is a couple thousand members, would this justify the USA/the World Government (excluding the Arab nations) dropping Atom Bombs into the Middle East places such as Mecca etc? Millions will die and suffer but its fine because you got ride of the trouble makes and most Arabs are anti America/west anyways? Is this act justified? in your opinion?

  58. @Tenrai, thanks for making me go look up the links.

    Proof that the older members knew about the Coup! Now they’re all guilty

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/02/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/03/

    Negotiations fell through

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/09/

    “You’re comparing money to human lives? Wow, that isn’t even worth replying to… O_o”

    No I’m comparing numbers. Its easier to kill a hundred people than it is to kill millions. Such is life.

    “What suspicious behavior? The Uchiha weren’t behaving out of the normal. Only Madara was posing any real threat at the time.”

    For the elders’ distrust to rise they would have to have been behaving suspicious correct? Suspicious like being nowhere to be found when the Village was being destroyed by a creature only they could control.

    “I might have been able to consider your reasoning if the elders at least tried to negotiate or reason, or find another solution first, but I see no evidence that they did, so I can’t.”

    The evidence is up above Ten 😉

    “But they knew that the only reason behind those illusions of power, was so that they could be watched and controlled.”

    You and I have different ideas of what “segregation” means. For me its a life like the one Naruto had. The Uchihas were heroes, loved by the villagers and had an entire section of Konoha for themselves. I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for them when they had all of that.

  59. @ Kisu – that site translations are poor and sloppy at best

    Sasuke didn’t because he was too young, that means the younger generation where not in on it and where killed anyways

    hahaha the last bit you said now. could we put u in prison please kisu, you will have a nice little section in the prison your own room… not much of a view, but it is a space to call your own, we will tell all the other inmates that you are lying backstabber but also you pretty strong so you may get some respect but mostly just hatted. We will guard and look after you, watch your every move and make sure you don’t cause any trouble… not that you have before but we know you might… also if you don’t like this arrangment and want to change it, we will kill you ^_^

  60. @Kisu

    Pein actually made some good points in his last comment. As I said before, both sides were involved in this tragedy and yet you only condemn one side for their actions while praising the others for theirs.

    “No I’m comparing numbers. Its easier to kill a hundred people than it is to kill millions. Such is life.”

    Hm. Funny, that sense of reasoning suggests that it should be easier to kill less than it is to kill more. Yet at the same time you say ALL the Uchiha had to die instead of only a few which is like saying you have to burn all the money and keep nothing. You are contradicting yourself there.

    “For the elders’ distrust to rise they would have to have been behaving suspicious correct? Suspicious like being nowhere to be found when the Village was being destroyed by a creature only they could control.”

    Maybe that’s because the Uchiha were cornered off in their own little area of the village, without any real link to everyone around them and the attack just wasn’t in their vicinity. Were they even informed the attack was taking place? Who knows? There is no evidence to suggest they were. There is also no evidence to suggest that they weren’t helping the rest of Konoha during the attack either, so either way that is a gray area. Also, they were segregated before Madara’s attack, if you recall. So how were the Uchiha acting suspiciously before then?

    “The evidence is up above Ten.”

    The details you showed were as vague as ever and subject to translation nuances. It still doesn’t justify the fact that no other alternatives were considered and seeing as how we don’t know any actual details, using that as support for your argument is hardly helpful.

    “You and I have different ideas of what “segregation” means. For me its a life like the one Naruto had. The Uchihas were heroes, loved by the villagers and had an entire section of Konoha for themselves. I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for them when they had all of that.”

    If you look segregation up in a dictionary, this is what you get: “The enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.” That is what I am referring to.

    Now, as for them being treated well, remember that it means little if it is all under false pretenses. Look at Sakura’s love confession to Naruto. Should Naruto have simply been content with it, even though he knew it was a lie? No. He called her out on her bluff. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that the Uchiha are innocent either. In fact, I have stated multiple times that both parties are to blame. It’s just I believe that one should punish the guilty and not the innocent.

    To be honest Kisu, I wouldn’t have even argued with you or joined this debate, but it was one line of yours that caused me to and that is this one:

    “Frankly, I would’ve given the order to kill them all years ago.”

    That is what gets me. You suggested killing them even long before they planned the Coup. Before they were even a threat other than one of them who went rogue. That is what I am really arguing against here, more so than the actual coup itself. You’re suggesting that Konoha should have killed hundreds of men woman and children all based on one person’s actions and nothing more. What makes it even more non-sensible is that doing so would have only cut Konoha’s military strength by a third, so not only are you suggesting genocide based on one man’s actions was a good plan, but you also suggested that destroying a third of your own military force based on little to no logical reasoning was the most sensible thing to do, even though it would make you a more appealing target for attacks from other countries.

    Doesn’t sound like the ideas of a good leader to me. O_o

  61. @Pein, “does this seem like a well respected?”

    No, except everyone in the Village except the Elders considered the Uchihas to be the pinnacle of perfection. Just look back to the Chunin exams and read the spectators’ comments and you’ll see what I mean (I’m being a lazy bastard cuz I dont want to go searching for the pages).

    “Sasuke would of been treated with the same racism and hate that the Uchiha where treated with before.”

    He deserves to be treated like that, but that isnt the point now. The Uchihas weren’t hated, as I said over and over, the entire village loved them except the Elders. Sasuke would’ve only been watched heavily. Everyone would still love and adore him because he’s an Uchiha.

    “The Brothers Equal power I didn’t mean they got the same powers but that the Eyes and body abilities are equal in strength, or else one would of just won the war…”

    I’d say the ocular ninjutsu is a much better power than longevity. But the point is the older brother completely forgot what his farther stood for just because he was jealous.

    “It shows here the 3rd Hokage was overruled by who the elders and the Anbu leader Danzou, remember these where his team mates too”

    Sentimentality. He didn’t have to listen to them as Tsunade has shown time and time again. Especially in the Pain Arc. They’re just advisers. If the Hokage doesn’t approve then their hands are tied.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-421/06/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-421/07/

    “The Uchiha where treated as criminal and discriminated against before they started plotting a coup and it was that, that drove them to action”

    They clearly wanted power, otherwise they would have negotiated with the Third, but instead chose to fight the village head on and got screwed for it.

    “But in this situation, it is as though you see a fire starting and instead kill the baby so its not a problem later, instead of trying to save both when they had a chance.”

    But thy couldn’t stop the Uchiha without killing them. The Uchiha gave the Village no choice but to go that. For the Uchihas’ couple lives they saved millions of innocent ones. And no, no Uchiha was innocent. According to Madara all the older members knew about it.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/07/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/02/

    “Or even a better analogy would be starting the fire yourself and then saying you did it to make space and let the baby burn to death… harsh but that would be a better analogy for the situation.”

    Yes, that is indeed a better analogy. But you forgot the part where the cop started the fire on both houses and had to choose who to save. 1 baby, or 2.

    “How is Pein destroying a Village any different from the Uchiha wanting to rebel?”

    1. Pain isn’t stupid, lame or bitchy
    2. Pain wanted to destroy the Village to teach Tsunade pain while the Uchiha wanted to conquer the Village to rule it.

    “like I said he was willing to kill the village to protect it”

    I’ll let Danzou speak for himself.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-424/03/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-450/16/

    Danzo is right. The Third Hokage’s teachings destroyed Konoha and cost many people their lives. Danzo thought it better to have the Village destroyed than to let Tsunade keep making mistakes because he could rebuild it and ensure a secure future.

    “You do know that the Uchiha wanted to take power not kill the entire village, they wanted the village to continue under a new rule, not unlike Danzou felt about Tsunade and wanted to rule?”

    Yeah, except the Uchihas knew their method could’ve caused a Ninja War that would kill many people, even people who aren’t connected to the ninja world in any way, shape or form. Danzo’s method would only result in Tsunade losing her position.

    “It is never said that Sarutobi went to the Uchiha, in fact he was trying to the Elders to negotiate! but their prejudice and racism made it so that they wouldn’t listen. ”

    That’s a bad translation. The subbed anime says different, other translations say different, and Narutopedia says different.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-400/09/
    http://animeready.com/naruto-shippuden-141/

    “But what is truly the difference here, say 100 people deserve to die for the acts of 2”

    My logic was flawed. I was going by the assumption that not the entire clan knew what was going on, but after going link-hunting I see. They were all guilty. Every adult was in on it, thus everyone deserved what they got.

    “Millions will die and suffer but its fine because you got ride of the trouble makes and most Arabs are anti America/west anyways? Is this act justified? in your opinion?”

    In our world such a thing should never happen. If we were in the Naruniverse where life meant very little, then yes, I would press the big red button and take out all the troublemakers at once. You’re arguing from a humanitarian point-of-view, but the Naruniverse is far more militaristic and savage than our world. In 80 years they’ve had 4 World Wars. We can’t be that bloodthirsty even on our best days.

  62. “could we put u in prison please kisu, you will have a nice little section in the prison your own room”

    Prison sounds fun. Just give me an Xbox 360 and keep all the sex offenders away and I’m golden baby! Oh and no soaps, just get me body washes >_>

    *realizes that everyone is troubled by my mechanical rationality*
    *laughs and walks away from anime section*

  63. @ Kisu – The spectators of the Chunin exams wheren’t only Konoha members, they where the fuedal lords so yes the Uchiha where feared, but those same supporters also thought that the Uchiha where murdered on a whim like Itachi told Sasuke. No idea of the history…

    Being segregated to a portion of the village, watched relentlessly by anbu and when you are not part of the defense of Konoha from the 9 Tailed Fox, the Uchiha where not loved, they where feared and reveared for their strength as I said before, being strong and having Kekkei Genkai doesn’t always mean you are loved by your village… Haku Kimmimaro

    Again as I said before, the Uchiha are not responsible for their father actions. That happened before Konoha was even a thought in Hashirama and Madara’s eyes.

    It is shown and said in the link I provided below that the elders and the HEAD OF THE ANBU DANZOU over ruled Sarutobi’s wishes… Tsunade was no ordinary Hokage she did not have the respect for the old ways as the previous did. So she used her strength to over power them and not her actual positions as u see in those pages.

    Lost in translation I guess, in the end a rough translation can change the meaning of that panel, as I have shown both Logically and in the manga itself Negotiations would not have taken place…

    1) there was no change ocuring if negotiations began a change would occur, either the Uchiha would strike quickly or positions of power would of been handed over at this time.
    2) It is clear the susposions of the elders out weigh everything else, they acted throughout the history without cause and as you would say pre emptive, taking action before looking at the other possible solutions

    Every adult? but not every child, yet they where slaughtered too

    In our world, we are greater monsters here then they are in Naruto, we had two great wars, the human race on earth is far more cruel creating weapons like the A BOMB etc we don’t have ninjutsu but we have power and we use it for our own selfish desires just like they do. The parallels are there and that is why the idea’s of race, humanity etc are shown in Naruto too.
    We are more blood thirsty. We just don’t get our hands dirty

    haha, if you get locked up no XBOX for u 😛 and you will be surrounded by the worst inmates in the place, sex offenders murderers etc, u the one that’s gotta keep them in line somehow… we wont help of course but good luck…

    *Takes last line as a Surrender*
    *Plants Flag in this anime section*

    I claim this land in the name of Team South Africa… Victory is our 😛

  64. @Kisu

    *Pats Kisu on the back.* So really, you just hate the Uchiha because they are loved and admired by everyone for no reason? O_o

    Why didn’t you just say so? <_<

    At the end of the day, each person should be measured by their individual values and actions, not by the blood they are born with, their family name or the actions of their forebears.

    The way everyone would always praise Sasuke simply for being an Uchiha, while Naruto was only ever discriminated against for circumstances out of his control did irk me quite a bit, especially when you consider Naruto only ever strived to do good by others while Sasuke simply ignored them. But then that all still coincides with my view that judging others by the actions of one person is wrong, whether that perception is positive or negative. It means the innocent suffer for actions they never committed, while those who are jerks are praised blindly for the same type of false perception.

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