Naruto 506 Breakdown: DYNAMIC…IDIOCY!!! Demotivational poster and official debate inclusive. This program is rated R for ‘Retarded’ by the MPA of America. Reader discretion is advised.

Last night, I had a dream…

…Ok, I didn’t, I just always wanted to say that. >_>

Yup, this youth is definitely lost...

Slowly, but surely, it’s apparent out beloved summer is coming to its sad, unwanted end. It’s back to school, back to work…back to life. All that’s left now is to watch as the trees shed their discolored leaves as the cold slowly sets in and the winter draws near. For those of you on the other side of the earth, it’s your turn to point and laugh since the exact opposite is what you’ll be experiencing now. I hope those fingers of yours burn to black ash! >_>

Well hey! No matter to season; come rain, come shine, we know our weekly (mostly) manga fix will always take us through the weather in high spirits so we don’t spontaneously combust in the name of all things stress.

Now if it could take me through my math homework, that would be dandy. <_<

...They?

As for this one chapter, 506, I thought it was absolutely fantastic! It was beyond epic, really! Well, that’s only because before it came out, I had just read twenty-one chapters of Fairy Tail followed by one of Bleach, which amounted to my standards being brutally bludgeoned and left for dead in a dark alley as a result of overexposure to extreme crappiness.

Is that a mean thing to say? Oh well. You should know me by now. 😀

Let’s see you stone me with giant rocks all the way from college, BB!

The fact that you have Goku hair makes you his son. The fact that I don't like you makes your name Goretard. >_>

In all genuineness, though, the chapter itself wasn’t all that fantastic. The delivery was a tad sloppy in some regards, so it felt a little rushed, and everything just seemed like it was all over the place. At some points, even, it became a bit confusing as you read closely. Whether this can be chalked up to Kishi’s minor indiscretion or an unintentional scanlation folly remains anyone’s guess, but that will all be addressed in due course.

All the same, 506 was still a very good read. Although at the expense of a more free-flowing experience, it was very much straight to the point: that being the upcoming brawl between destined enemies. And in the end, you most likely are left all like Oliver Twist.

And so once again, the day is saved thanks to unparalleled awesome that is Gai-sensei.

YOUUUUTHHH!!!

Wearing lipstick doesn't make you a rockstar, Gai...mascara does. >_>

This time, we weren’t left with a hooge deal of content to discuss. Yet, I still found that there are one or two points I wanted to bring to your attention.

The first one has to do with Samewhora. This stupid sword is starting to confuse the hell out of me, and it’s pissing me off. -__-

One minute, its place is with Kisame and they snuggle and cuddle all night long; images of which I refuse to bring myself to imagine. And then the next minute, it’s all one giant hoax?

WTF! It’s more random than freakin’ MTV commercials! …And those are very random!

Don't bother. In two minutes, it's gonna leave you for a Amy Winehouse. I'm not sure what it'll chew on, in that case, though. >_>

Let’s review.

During the brief charade of a fight between Bee and and Kisame, the sword had its allegiance pledged solely to Kisame in the beginning. However, as the fight progressed, it was shown to take a strong liking to Bee’s chakra and so it was out with the old and in with the new squeeze.

Strike 1.

Later on in the story, though, it was revealed that the Kisame that was betrayed was only a clone, so the “betrayal” becomes understandable. The real Slim Shady Kisame was INSIDE the belly of the beast, and by all indication, was permitted, since it could have pulled out at any time.

Strike 2.

Now, with the guise in shambles, they’re separated again. And for this sword, the first order of business is to nuzzle up to Bee and offer him some of Kisame’s sushi-tasting chakra.

Strike 3. Sameharlot, you’re f*cking out. -__-

Now this is a reference I'm sure everyone will recognize. >_>

From what I can gather from this chapter, Samehada is no longer on Kisame’s side. Stealing his chakra and leaving him looking bulimic is where the line is crossed.

The way I see it, all of this was Kishi’s idea of an intelligent way of leveling the playing field between Gai and Kisame in preparation for their forthcoming battle, which I feel has been the highlight of the past two chapters.

Let’s look at it, shall we?

Wives...X___X

First order of business: cancel out all alternative contenders, those being Naruto and Killer Bee.

In the last chapter, Naruto “wrecks” his ankle, rendering him incapable of battle; especially not one of this proportion.

The manner in which Bee was stroked over was incorporated with the second “order of business,” and that was to take away Kisame’s haxx weaponry.

Samehada decided to get back with Bee so he cannot fight alongside Kisame. Weapon axed. And so Kisame took advantage and forced the sword to absorb massive chunks of Bee’s chakra, also stripping him of his ability to fight in this kind of battle. Last contender also axed.

And finally: get both fighters alone in a secluded area.

All that happened made it easier for Kishi to maneuver events so that Gai and Kisame will be alone.

Now all that’s left is for us to stand back and watch and they make fishy babies full of YOUUUUTHHH!!!

Well, it's not like you're using it anyway...>_>

With all that said and done, there is also that little tidbit of Kisame allegedly not being at full power, according to Stevie Wonder. With all else that has been done to balance the battle, it would seem this would tip the scale a bit.

Well, remember that that statement was made right after Samehada had stolen Kisame’s chakra. As we saw, Kisame took some back (possibly even more than was stolen) courtesy the Hachibi, so it’s safe to say he is in fact as good as normal, with the exception of his weapon; although it IS arguable that Samehada would be useless, given the fact that Gai doesn’t even use chakra. However, stealing chakra isn’t all it’s good for.

Whatever be the case, though, you can rest assured that come Wednesday, you will probably be pissing yourself from the epicness or smashing your laptop from the disappointment.

Either way, I suggest you brace yourself.

BUBBLITION CONTEST

Well, it seems most of you didn’t really get the idea of the last contest, since I mostly saw entries independent of Gai’s previous thought which was supposed to be built upon.

Well, from the few that did get the idea and entered accordingly, there was only one winner.

Come on. Don’t act surprised. The Roundhouse Kick is a dead giveaway… >__>

For the sake of evening all odds, from today henceforth, I hereby disqualify all Bubblition entries submitted by Redbaron, in the name of fairness and equality for all.

Lol, I’m joking! …But I should, though. >_>

Keep ’em coming, people! Your next challenge is here!

Insert possible caption here.

Show me what you got. 😉

OFFICIAL DEBATE

Here is it!

Ultimate emo vs. Ultimate emo lover

DING DING DING!!

_____

As a side note, anyone else notice how the big three are all on the same unit value of chapter?

Bleach: 416
One Piece: 596
Naruto: 506

666

@__@

_____

Tell me your own politik.

—Fix

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~ by Captain Pickles on August 23, 2010.

296 Responses to “Naruto 506 Breakdown: DYNAMIC…IDIOCY!!! Demotivational poster and official debate inclusive. This program is rated R for ‘Retarded’ by the MPA of America. Reader discretion is advised.”

  1. first *takes out guns points at anyone who says otherwise slowly turning to a certain extreme omnivore*

  2. funny as always
    @debate Pain wins hands down.
    Bubbletion: Kirabi “Hey you forgot to say Surprise”
    Samehada” Okay Surpise!”
    Caption: No matter how late you say it surpise = not rape
    Ok now that’s done on to a pressing matter. *takes out flaming boulder cannon from hammerspace and aims at pickles* For BB and Fairy Tail. *pulls trigger and fires explosive boulders at Pickles then slowly turns to that extreme omnivore and points finger* You’re Next.

  3. second!

    pain wins hands down. i just can’t see orochimaru standing a chance against a pain at full power…

    i think that kisame will escape in the next chapter. it’s too early for him to die. otherwise there won’t be enough akatsuki members…

  4. Third!

    Debate: Pain wins. He’s stronger than all the Sannin and he beat a six-tailed fox Naruto. Orochimaru was struggling against a four-tailed fox Naruto.

  5. Come on dude that’s not a fun debate. Let’s do Oro vs Jiraiya!

  6. I choose Orochimaru!!!

    For the sake of being controversial, of course. <_<

    The reason he will win? Well, all he has to do is reincarnate Yahiko using his resurrection technique and use him to taunt Nagato and overwhelm him with feelings of guilt.

    Either that, or he can just offer Nagato a trade. His own life, for Yahiko's rebirth. Nagato will feel responsible for Yahiko's death and will perhaps jump at the chance to trade places, this time sacrificing himself instead and allowing Konan and Yahiko to continue living.

    Orochimaru may not be as strong as Pein, but he is cunning and he knows how to manipulate people. I can definitely see him pulling a fast one on Pein, simply by resurrecting his parents, Yahiko or even Jiraiya to battle him. Jiraiya has the intel, Yahiko has the guilt factor and the parents are obvious… @__@

  7. @tenrai: ok – now you’ve done it. You’re making me think, and that’s rarely a good thing.

    Nagato’s parents.. he had the friggin Rinnegan… who were Nagato’s parents? Sure they were just civilians in the storyline, but to inherit rinnegan… I wonder if his parents had some powerful lineage to them..

    And (here’s where you made me think) – if Oro were to bring them back… would they be powerful?

  8. That breakdown was epic! Darn you Pickles, you made me laugh too hard. You and Prawl are on my revenge list >:)

    @arpotu, probably not. they were killed by nameless ninja X_X

    @debate, I doubt Oro even knew Yahiko (sure he met him as a kid, but I doubt he’d remember some lowly war orphan) so Pain would royally kick his ass

  9. @arpotu

    The parents don’t have to be strong. Summoning them would be purely for emotional or psychological damage, as opposed to anything else.

    @kisu

    If I don’t side with Orochimaru, then who will. Someone has to, otherwise this debate will be a complete whitewash for Pein.

  10. bubblition:-
    Kisame:(awakes from sleep) WTF! its gonna eat me! awwwwwwww.my worst nightmare came tr-..
    samehada:shut up im not ur fu**ing dick thats gonna eat ur head.
    Caption: The moral is”Look before u scream noobs”

  11. @tenrai Jiraiya died after Orochimaru’s defeat so count him out.

  12. Great chapter, awesome breakdown.
    And I totally agree on the ‘leveling the playing-field’ arguments. Naruto wrecks his ankle in Super Saiyan mode?!?! Bee suddenly forgets Samehada is a powerhungry whore?!?!! And Kisame ditches his human size razor blade with which he can transform into a small beast?!!?!!! Pretty convenient Kishi… >__>

    Debate:
    Hahahahahahahaha, Orochimaru against Pain,…. Whahahahahaha!!!!
    Why not pit Oro against Chuck Norris, that fight would last roughly the same 0.23 seconds. 😛
    Seriously though, I vote Pain. 🙂

    @ Tenrai,
    Doesn’t Orochimaru need the corpse before he brings it back to life with the Edo Tensei?! He could ressurect Jiraiya but he’s got no chance of ressurecting Yahiko. And Jiraiya may have the intel but even Jiraiya was no match for the 6 paths of Pain. Jiraiya knowing that Nagato wasn’t among them is useful for Trivial pursuit only.

    Bubble:
    (From left to right)
    Can I haz cookies?

    Seems to me like you’ve had enough.

    Caption:
    Oh shit, did he just deny the Cookie Monster a cookie?!?
    *Runs for the Hills*

  13. @baron – nope, he doesn’t need the corpse. Just a living sacrifice per resurrected soul. Oro is manipulating, but you gotta remember that one of peins greatest strengths was the lack of information anyone had on him. How would Oro know about any of Peins history? All he knows is that Nagato is an orphan, which doesn’t help much because Nagato doesn’t reveal himself when fighting.

    p.s. My iPad autocorrects “peins” to “penis”. Seems we agree that he’s a dick.

  14. BUBBLITION:

    KIRABI: Please tell me you speak English. I’m Detective Killa. Do you speaka any English? DO-YOU-UNDERSTAND-THE-WORDS-THAT-ARE-COMING-OUT-OF-MY-MOUTH?
    I cannot believe this SHIT! First I get a bullshit assignment, now Mr. Rice-a-Roni Sword don’t even speak American. C’mon, man, my ride over here. Put your bag in the back.
    PUT-YOUR-BAG-IN-THE-BACK-SEAT!
    No, no, no, you put your own shit in the back! I’m not a skycap!

    SAMEHADA: Gigigigigigigigigigigigi

    CAPTION: Rush Hour 4: More of the same! Coming to a discount DVD pile near you!

  15. lol and I couldn’t agree more
    @debate Orochimaru kills Nagato as a child = insta-win.

  16. @debate

    Orochimaru can just resurect Itachi, Deidara, Kakuzu, Sasori, the first, the second and the third and just have all of them fight Pein. Even while they fight Pein, oro can learn his strengths and weaknesses from that. <___<

  17. @Tenrai once again Itachi isn’t dead because he defeated Orochimaru but don’t forget the 4th hokage would be more than an adequate replacement.

  18. Pffft. Oro wins cos he brings back the REAL SLIM SHADY Sage of the Six Paths.

  19. Great job Pickles! This chapter was great but mostly in thanks to the awesomeness that is Maito Gai! I’m still laughing at Naruto “wrecking” his ankle. xD Such convenience.

    I don’t understand the confusion over Samehada though. He just goes for the best or “tastier” chakra and that happens to be Bee’s. As we can see as soon as they’re separated Samehada immediately goes to hump Bee’s leg.

    The debate is obvious, Pein wins no contest but it’s ensuring to see people put up some opposition.

  20. Well, let’s look at strengths vs weaknesses first.

    Pein:

    1) 6 bodies, shared vision – teamwork is Pein’s greatest strength. It truly is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of it’s parts. He has no blind spots and is adept at using his bodies abilities in tandem with each other. How one mind can run six different bodies, I’ll never know. O_O

    2) Healing via Naraka Path

    3) Diversity – Pein brings almost all styles of nin warfare to the fight. Long range/close range mechanized combat via Asura Path, animal summons, gravity control for perfect spherical attack/defense with a wide radius, Chakra absorption.

    Cons –

    1) diverse, but not flexible. Only one body can wield one type of jutsu. Each body has a weakness and only teamwork protects it from being exploited. If a body is seperated from the rest of them, it will be easier to take out.

    2) If Naraka Path is destroyed, rejuvenation becomes impossible for the other bodies. Makes him a glaring target from the get-go.

    And now…

    Orochimaru!

    Pros –

    1) Edo Tensei – you gotta remember, it’s not just Orochimaru vs Pein, it’s Orochimaru + whoever he decides to resurrect vs Pein. This gives him essentially UNLIMITED flexibility and the ability to choose allies with abilities that counter those of Pein’s Six Paths. Any past Kage or notable ninja, heck, even the ORIGINAL Sage of the Six Paths is up for summoning.

    2) Healing by Body Shedding

    3) Flexibility – Orochimaru has one of the most diverse skillsets ever seen in the manga/anime. He brings Swordplay, genjutsu, endless snake summons, Rashomon gates for defense, the ability to merge with any object and hide, then launch a surprise counter attack. Plus his Yamata Dragon transformation kicks the shit out of anything the Animal Path can summon.

    Cons

    1) Smaller chakra bank. If this ever became a drawn out battle, Orochimaru would run out of steam first. But that’s a big IF.

    2) his sexual attraction to male children with tragic pasts.

    All in all, Orochimaru has a HUGE advantage with Edo Tensei. He has demonstrated the ability to be able to summon at least 3 bodies – likely more – of his choosing, and given that he was in the akatsuki beforehand, he’d have a fairly good understanding of Peins abilities and would summon accordingly. As much as I’d hate to say it, I’d give this one to Orochimaru.

  21. darkavatar: i usually stay out of the Naruto section these days, but just to add to the debate, how can orochi survive if pein decides to use his village crushing shinra tensei? or just chibaku tensei? edo tensei wont save him from that kind of stuff…

  22. Actually Darks, Maru can’t summon any of the prevous hokages seeing as though the first and second have been sealed by the 3rds Jutsu, Minito is sealed and his other half is sealed within naruto, and the 3rd sealed himself away as well.

    The one person he’d be able to summon that would actually be effective is jman, and the sage of the six paths in my opinion. All in all, I do not see Maru countering chibaka Tensei if it came down to it. Nor do i see him Countering the Almighty push which blew up an entire village.

  23. Btw epic breakdown Captian P

  24. Pain is Orochimaru’s worst enemy, not because he’s something of a Ninjutsu God but more because his most powerful summon and Human Path can rip souls out of body’s like Tenrai can eat.
    If Oro uses Edo Tensei, Human Path could just rip out the souls before Oro could apply the fuda tag onto the summoned corpses.
    Besides, Edo Tensei takes some time to perform. With the 6 paths of Pain as your enemy time isn’t on your side.

  25. LOL @ Darks for Oro’s #2 weakness

    To add to what others are saying:

    I initially thought Pein had this in the bag, but I forgot about Oro’s cadaver-o-matic!

    Also,

    Orochimaru could summon THE REAL MADARA UCHIHA… J-man (though, like Elvis, Jiraiya is not really dead), Or he could summon any of the dead jinchuriki, or Sasuke’s innocence (since that is dead)
    Or how about Sakumo Hatake… Endless summons ability.

    Pein can… lose weight nearly as fast as Kisame, use fat pein as a human shield,

  26. ….what? I posted before finishing my thought? Oh well, it’s better that way!

  27. Aha! There we go! People are getting into this debate!

    @Marks – I know it’s generally accepted that if a ninja has had his soul sealed, it can’t be summoned with Edo Tensei, but is it actually the case? Show me a link that says that only unsealed souls are summonable and I’ll take your point. To further dissuade you, the third coffin that Orochimaru attempted to summon had the kanji for 4 written on it. Wasn’t Minato’s soul supposed to have been sealed? How come Orochimaru was able to attempt to summon it?

    @takashid – shinra tensei/almighty push VS triple Rashomon gates? I think Oro could easily defend himself there. Although I don’t think it would ever come to that. He’d have to sacrifice his other bodies to have a chance at hitting Orochimaru (seeing as they’re all so close together), and on top of that, it takes a fair while to charge up enough to perform either of these techniques. Besides, whatever Pein can do, the Sage of the Six Paths can do better. 😉

    @redbaron – what if Orochimaru anticipated that it would take an age to summon them during combat and had the bright idea to summon them beforehand? I think it’s fair, considering Pein comes in with his bodies already prepared, Orochimaru should have the same benefit. And LOL at Human Path. If Human Path was good enough to actually get his hands on and rip the soul out of any of the legendary ninja Orochimaru is able to summon (or even Orochimaru himself, who is known for his use of clones), then yes he could. But he’s not, so it’s a non-starter. And as far as I’ve seen, only Nagato himself can summon the Outer Path and use it to extract/restore the souls of multiple enemies, at significant risk to himself. If it was so easy to do, I’m sure he would have tried it on Naruto.

  28. @Pickles: That was a hilarious BD. The forbidden wife technique (get ’em honey!!) had me rollin

  29. @Darks, Oro only summoned that third coffin in the anime. So by manga canon, he can only summon 2 bodies AND they have to be souls that have not been devoured by Shiki Fujin.

    To add, Oro didn’t know anything about Pain, much like the other Akatsuki members, except Zetsu and Madara. Pain wins hands down.

    “But he’s not, so it’s a non-starter. And as far as I’ve seen, only Nagato himself can summon the Outer Path and use it to extract/restore the souls of multiple enemies, at significant risk to himself. If it was so easy to do, I’m sure he would have tried it on Naruto.”

    Akatsuki don’t kill Jinchuriki, so he wouldn’t have tried that on Naruto. Besides, Deva Path could just use Bansho Tenin and have Human realm do his magic.

    “the Sage of the Six Paths”

    If Oro could have summoned him, why not summon him against Itachi….or Sarutobi? As far as we know, he can’t summon Sage of Six.

    Summons:

    The Dog summon can’t be killed. It can only get stronger, so Yataw/eitscalled really has no advantage there.

  30. Awesome breakdown capt’n!

    Bubble:
    Bee:
    I’ll take you to the candy shop. I’ll let you lick the lollipop. Go ‘head girl, don’t you stop. Keep going ’til you hit the spot…

    Samehada:
    Gigigigigigigig! Translation: Stop! Im a guy!

    Caption: Language Barrier: Makes you wonder, who gets “screwed” in this relationship…

  31. I remember Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade being beaten by a man named Hanzo. Then they received the legendary titles of Sanin. Then this one man comes along and single handedly destroys Danzo and overthrows the entirety of his forces. This one man also beats Jiraiya even with his use of Sage Mode. This man is now facing Orocimaru whose biggest trick in the book is Edo Tensei which was beaten back by an 80 year old Hokage far past his prime. Beaten back by a technique that rips out the users soul along with his opponent’s. The man now facing Orochimaru also has a variety of soul ripping techniques that don’t carry such risk to the user.

    That’s enough for now, I will wait for further discussion.

  32. Ahhhh hey Kisu! I was dreadi- errr, awaiting your arrival!

    Nah nah, kisu. While you don’t see the third coffin in the manga, he does attempt to summon it.

    http://www.manga2u.com/Naruto/117/18/ & http://www.manga2u.com/Naruto/117/19/

    (jeez I hate manga2u, but I don’t have many other options now that onemanga is gone :/ )

    And I did ask for a link proving that only unsealed souls were summonable. Until it is proved to be impossible, I say it can be used. As for bansho tenin, clones go a long way as to helping Orochimaru avoid that (I have yet to see Deva Path use it on more than one enemy at a time).

    As for summoning, he chose his summons based on how much it would rattle his opponent. He brought out the previous hokages against Sarutobi as they were his teachers and friends. I’m sure it’ll rattle Pein to face off against the original Rinnegan user, his role model so to speak. Just because he hasn’t doesn’t mean he can’t, Kisu.

    The Dog summon can be eaten and digested though. Ask tenrai. O_O

  33. @super – and how exactly does that pretty story help Pein face down The Sage of the Six Paths? We aren’t debating history here mate, only strengths and weaknesses in a hypothetical matchup. And to say there’s no risk involved for Peins soul ripping jutsu is bollocks. Didn’t you see what happened to Nagato after he brought out the outer path and sucked the souls out of the anbu root/hidden rain ninja? Skinnier than an anorexic on Jenny Craig. As for Human Path…pfffffffffffft. That guys trophy kill was Shizune. Shizune.

  34. Lol, well Dark I thoroughly enjoyed telling that story to show just a few examples of how Pein trumps Orochimaru in every way. You have to learn from history not ignore it. Analyze their past battles to help determine how’d they fare in their current battle. Surely you’d agree this makes sense in any debate battle.

    Ah, my mistake there is a risk in Pein ripping your soul out. Anorexia. I wonder if this will kill him in the middle of battle when he only has 1 soul to rip out and he’s ripped out multitudes more than that in all the battles we’ve seen him in. I’ll ponder on that.

    I see there is some (confirmed?) assumption that Orochimaru could summon the Sage of Six Paths. It’s funny now that I think back on it Orochimaru could have easily taken the village if he could just whimsically summon the Sage of Six Paths. Lol, yes build up your case on a hypothetical situation but in debates I find the best arguments are backed by manga proof and not just “what if”.

  35. Hmm… SO6P foreshadowing?

    http://www.manga2u.com/Naruto/2/02/

    ..interesting…

  36. Not necessarily, because in Orochimaru’s case he wasn’t shown using Edo Tensei until he fought the Third, which means the fight with Hanzo is not a fair marker to compare his most current strength against.

    As for anorexia, the point of my argument was to show you how taxing it is to summon the Outer Path on Nagato’s body, let alone use it in combat. He went from healthy weight to skeleton in moments, which itself is enough to kill a normal person. The fact that he’s summoning it in his condition poses extreme risk to his wellbeing and he knows it. You saw him age rapidly and die after restoring the souls of those he had killed to their bodies. And we’ve only really seen him in 3 fights. One when he snapped after Hanzou killed Yahiko, the fight with Jiraiya and the assault on the Leaf. Only twice has he summoned the Outer Path and the second time killed him.

    It is funny to think that about summoning the Sage of the Six Paths, but what are you saying? Are you disregarding a logical assumption just because every possible scenario hasn’t been explored in the manga and because it doesn’t fit in with your debating standards? If so, I’m throwing in the towel now before this debate gets ridiculous.

  37. Not necessarily what? I’m pointing out it’s only logical to use past battles in the manga to help determine how any hypothetical or current battle would go. Is this not normal? Lol, of course I’m not comparing current strength with past battles. I’m only using them as examples and marking points.

    As for the soul ripping I wasn’t referring to him summoning the statue. I was talking about Naraka Path’s ability.

    To clarify what I’m saying, I’m saying it’s funny to think Orochimaru can summon the Sage of Six Paths. Lol, I find it quite funny actually but we all don’t have the same sense of humor I see. Am I disregarding Orochimaru can summon the Sage of Six Paths based off your “logical assumption”? Yes, when I can just as easily make the “logical assumption” of; If Orochimaru could summon the Sage of Six Paths he would have have, not could have, done so the invasion of Konoha. If you can deny that then surely I can deny your logical assumption in all fairness.

    Would you go on to say your logic is better than mine? Why would Orochimaru summon the most powerful summon he has to destroy Konoha? He has been planning this battle for years and with such a weapon at his disposal it would be to easy one could say. It makes more sense to not use the Rikudou Sennin though available he is. Maybe he didn’t have him at the time or the 3rd coffin was him! Ah, understandable.

  38. @Darks:

    “Are you disregarding a logical assumption”

    Nope, Sage of Six Paths is an ILLOGICAL assumption (no offense…it has nothing to do with you giving Fly the win in that guy contest >_>). As far as we know, the Sage lived centuries ago, while Orochimaru’s oldest summon died about 80 years ago. We have to set limits based on what he has and has not done. A logical assumption is that Orochimaru could summon Jiraiya or Hanzo. And while we’re on the topic of the Sage of Six, why didn’t Oro just summon him when he was fighting Itachi or Sarutobi, because surely that would have meant instant victory.

    Also, we don’t know WHO could have been in that coffin. Also Sarutobi said once yo0u get trapped in the Shinigami, you’re trapped forever. To add, the only souls summoned were souls NOT consumed by the Shinigami, so a logical assumption would be souls devoured by the Shinigami cant be summoned

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-124/05/

    It also seems you forget that Edo Tensei really is nothing against the manipulator of souls. Let me remind you what happens to someone revived by Edo Tensei when they lose their soul

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-123/12/

    Now let me remind you of what Nagato can do when it comes to souls

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-429/04/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-447/10/

    “Only twice has he summoned the Outer Path and the second time killed him.”

    Nagato IS the outer path. Are you talking about Gedo Mazo? Anyway, he only died because he had low reserves of chakra when he used it. Its the same like forcing the use of a Chidori or Kamui when you’re out of chakra, it kills you. Konan obviously knew what he was about to do which means he did it before, and it didn’t kill him then.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-449/

    And this has nothing to do with your biased judging >_>

  39. “2) If Naraka Path is destroyed, rejuvenation becomes impossible for the other bodies. Makes him a glaring target from the get-go.”

    If I remember correctly, only Naruto and Jiraiya were able to see Naraka Path’s summon, and there is one glaring difference between those two and Oro, they were in in Sage Mode. Usually you have to actually be grabbed by the summon to see it

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-426/04/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-426/05/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-433/12/

  40. Tenten vs Ino would be a way better debate >_>

  41. @kisu not quite i could basically tell the outcome of that Ino tries to use shintenshin fails and then tenten turns her into a pincushion done and done.

  42. Hahahahaha, I’m like a more direct version of Superdude and Darks. Screw the mind games and subtlety…no wonder I haven’t gotten lai-err lais…laip…uh lait..yeah that’s what I meant, lait (french for milk) in 2 months T_T

  43. @super – Naraka Path? He has to get close enough to lay his palm on the crown of his victims head. How would he do that? He’s not particularly fast and only has one other ability: making chakra rods. The Kusanagi would be enough to keep him at a distance. You could say that Deva Path could suck him in, but Oro has summons that could hold him back (ie the First Kazekage could make an iron wall between Deva Path and his victim). Good thing also about the Kazekage is that his attacks are not pure chakra based and therefore can’t be absorbed by Chubby Path and he provides excellent defense against most of Peins abilities.

    I have tried to explain several times now how Orochimaru picked the summons most likely to rattle his former sensei. His sensei’s senseis. And I don’t know about you, but I’d say it would be fair to think that the first and second hokages would have been enough to bring down Konoha. Also it would have been rather twisted for the original founders oh konoha to bring it down to it’s knees, something Orochimaru would have found sick pleasure in. These are perfectly good reasons to not have to bring out the Sage of the Six Paths. I still say you’re putting limitations down where there aren’t any, but suit yourself. Let’s shelve the Sage for now. I’m still confident in Orochimaru’s ability to win.

    Let me pull out a suitable team of summons for Orochimaru (3 in total) and see how they stack up against Pein and his posse of deadbeats.

    1) Shodaime Kazekage – perfect defense and offense, whose attacks can only be repelled by the Deva Path.
    2) Jiraiya – precious information, and also brings powerful offense to the field.
    3) Danzou – because negating anything that happens to you is so damned awesome.

    Let’s do this.

    Jiraiya’s information is now available to all members of Orochimarus squad, so everyones aware that they’re all dead bodies and nagato is pein and Outer Path heals and blah blah blah. Shodaime Kazekage keeps all the peins at bay, protect his squad against Asura’s missiles and chops all the Peins into ham steaks with his iron sand blades (think Byakuya’s Bankai, without the pink). Danzou summons Baku and hoovers Animal Paths damn hydra-puppy. Danzou charges at Pein, who repels him, then Danzou negates that and decapitates Deva Path at close range.

    Your move.

  44. @kisu – I thought the masked clown with the big mouth was Outer Path, well at least according to narutopedia. ?_?

  45. @Darks

    *Wakes up and goes onto blog, only to see that debate has taken off.*

    O__O

    Ah, I see you have been battling valiantly Darks. I am sorry you have had to battle alone for the time being, but I have my sleeping times. T__T

    But now I am back and ready for battle. It seems you and I are the only two who are brave enough to battle on the side of Orochimaru. A true debater can take on any odds and still hold their head up high, even in the face of overwhelming masses. ‘Tis a pity that no-one else has taken up the challenge, but alas, we will do our best.

    @Debate

    Now, there are quite a few comments that have come in since I last added to this debate and I can’t reply to them all, because it would take too long. So, instead, I will just give a general feel on how I see things.

    1: Firstly, I think a lot of people have an underwhelming perception of Orochimaru’s strength and are greatly underestimating him and I also think that is somewhat due to Sasuke’s victory over him. People are also comparing him to Hanzou too often, even though he battle Hanzou in his younger years.

    Let me counter those assessments now. Let’s not forget that when Sasuke beat Orochimaru, he was basically on a sick-bed with next to none of his real power left. He was in agony and half paralyzed and not ready for a battle of any kind, to be honest. If he was at full strength, Sasuke wouldn’t have beaten him and even Sasuke suggested such after his battle with Deidara in reply to a comment Suigetsu made.

    As for Hanzou, as I said already, he fought Hanzou many years before and not with half the power he has now. Comparing a young Orochimaru with a full strength and experienced Orochimaru as he was before he died is not really fair.

    At full strength he has many jutsu that I doubt he ever had back then during the third ninja war, including Edo Tensei, which makes a huge difference to any battle he might be in. Let’s also not forget that this is the person who was going to be the Fourth Hokage and was chosen to take that role before Minato waseven considered. Only his betrayal lost him the title that he would have otherwise likely taken.

    2: Orochimaru’s strengths.

    Let’s face it, the guy is a genius level shinobi who has created a lot of unique and forbidden jutsu, including Edo Tensei. This means that in a battle with Pein, he is likely to figure out his opponent’s abilities very quickly, especially if he has resurrected other dead, s-ranked shinobi to battle for him, the likes of which could even include former Akatsuki members or previous kage from various hidden villages.

    Let’s also not forget that these resurrected individuals are, for all intents and purposes, immortal and can regenerate any and all damage that Pein inflicts on them near instantaneously. So Pein can bring on his shinra tensei all he likes, because any damage he does will be short lived. Even orochimari can regenerate lost limbs and entire organs by simply growing himself a new body.

    Think of Orochimaru’s resurrected in the same vein you think of Pein’s bodies. They are essentially dead and can be healed if any damage is done to them. The only difference is that Orochimaru has an advantage in that he doesn’t need another body to perform the technique to heal his dead army. They just heal themselves perfectly fine. That is a huge advantage, because it means Pein has no real means to disable it, while Orochimaru can disable Pein’s healing once he figures out who the healer is..

    As for Pein using his super, village destroying Shinra Tensei, let’s not forget that to do that, five of his six bodies have to be disabled so that Deva path gets all their chakra and after he has used it, Deva path will be out of action for quite some time. If Orochimaru can defend himself from a pure concentrated chakra blast from Naruto four tails, I doubt he will have trouble defending himself from Shinra Tensei and his ‘hired help’ would just regenerate as usual. After that, he could literally walk up to each of the now useless bodies of Pein and just impale them to kill them.

    Even Chibaku Tensei holds too much risk to use. Firstly, using it means Pein needs to bring Orochimaru closer to his real body and I doubt Pein would risk endangering himself like that just to use one technique, unless he was already losing the battle and it was a last resort. Secondly, it takes a heck load of chakra to cast, so like Shinra Tensei, it would probably disable Pein’s other bodies if he had any others still active. Orochimaru could just attack in the interim it takes to cast the technique or he can avoid it using the many options at his disposal and simply wait it out while Pein drains himself of valuable chakra using it. He isn’t a mindless monster blinded by bloodlust like Naruto was in his six tailed form. He would easily identify that Pein was leading him into a trap and he would easily avoid it.

    Lastly, Orochimaru has his snake summons, which go from being as small as a common house snake, to massive monsters like Manda. Those can play a big role in giving him the time, and power needed to battle Pein for long enough to figure him out. Pein himself said that if Jiraiya had learned his secrets, that he may have lost the battle against him. I don’t see why Orochimaru would be any different.

    And this talk about Orochimaru having less chakra than Pein? Other than when he is on his deathbed needing a new body, when have we ever seen him run out of chakra? He seems to have a stamina and regeneration level similar to Naruto’s thanks to the power of the white snake. I have never seen him actually run out of chakra in any real battle he has been in, so i doubt he has a problem there.

    Near immortality, powerful forbidden techs, the ability to resurrect his own immortal army of extremely high level shinobi and his intelligence = win.

  46. Together, we are…DarkSenshi!

  47. How do i entry for the BUBBLITION CONTEST?

  48. SPOILER!!

    Guy and Kisame clash, and Guy seems to be the victor. Kisame is alive but can’t move. Aoba then tries to extract information from Kisame, maybe about his past.

  49. Spoilers are out.

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63474

  50. The Warrior from Heaven has been corrupted by the Avatar of Darkness…

    Can this team defeat whoever opposes them?

  51. @Dragon

    Corrupted? Pfft. I can never be corrupted. Just because something is dark, that doesn’t mean it is evil. 😛

    After all, would you call the nighttime sky, in all its wonder, an evil? O_o

  52. @tand00riexpr3ss1

    Just type whatever you want into a comment like you normally would. All you need to do is put “BUBBLITION” at the start of your post so that the author knows it is liable for consideration.

    If yours is good enough, it will appear near the end of next breakdown and you will win… um… fame and glory? X__X

  53. @dragon you mean the Extreme Omnivore.

  54. If it aint a chakra based attack then its gotta be a spiritual attack in my honest opinion.

  55. I’m kinda of curious on Orochimaru involvement as a member of the Akatsuki. *Falls asleep*

  56. *Fires random projectiles while sleeping*

  57. Darks be not evil, nor unkind, he be just unfathomable to the inhabitants of the Light. And far more appealing to the female eye.

    And tenrai, that’s just what the nighttime sky WANTS you to think. O_O

  58. GAH!

    “Corrupted” wasn’t meant as something evil.

    Light gets “corrupted” by darkness because they are opposites.

    Plus, darkness swallows everything…

    GO DARK!!! EAT TENRAI!!!

  59. But…but I’m full. O_O

  60. gah! I’ll let someone else take Ten, I’m still tired. If no one defends the Naruniverse’s god, then I’ll have to

  61. Damn u guys really made something great of this debate, for the record I actually voted for Oro at the poll.

    But among all the info brought by Tenrai, Dark, Kisu, Super & Red u guys forgot something really important that could bring Oro’s so called lead against pain to a halt.

    When you get stabbed by the Pain rod and if by any chance your in close proximity to Nagato he has instant control over you. Remamber only naruto was able to subdue that chakra control and that only due to the Sage kyuubi eye fusion.

    If Oro gets caught in that it could mean a end to him.
    Just a little more fuel to the debate.

  62. Spoiler Alert

    I also found this spoiler and it sound really cool.

    VERIFICATION: CONFIRMED

    SPOILER #1
    CREDITS: yagami1211

    507 – The Fake Existence.

    Kisame’s sharks are absorbed by the Hydra. Hydra is no chakra.

    Guy : Howl ! Youth !

    Tiger and Shark are clashing.

    Just near.

    Yamato : Guy’s Hachimon Tonkou’s technique ! It’s the Noon Tiger !

    Naruto : Noon Tiger ? It’s just like him naming techniques for discounts sales or something.

    Yamato : The Noon Tiger’s range is huge. He must stand firm !

    Kisame falls on the ground. Guy is standing above him. Guy haves a scroll in his left hand.
    Kisame is all beaten up. “That was a like a Air Bullet, that attack.”

    Guy haves white eyes. Noon Tiger is no Ninjutsu, it’s Taijutsu. He explains about Noon Tiger.

    Kisame tries to moves but Guy punch his guts. Kisame vomits blood. Kisame lose consciousness.

    Kisame : You’re just like a torturer. Just so I can’t move.

    Aoba comes and just like Ino’s father, he tries to get info out of him.

    Kisame’s past.

    Sob Story incoming. NOT !

    ———————–

    Kisame refuses to have lunch with his friends.
    When they see this they’re all like “Geez, whatever.”

    Kisame’s mission is it to deliver a password. He meets Ibiki.
    Kisame killed all his friends so he would be the only one knowing the password.
    Since if they’re catched and they talk, they’re killed.

    And comes The Fourth Mizukage.

    Kisame asks if he’s a ally or a foe.

    And behind him, there is madara.

    Madara manipulates the 4th Mizukage.

    ————-

    Kisame regain consciousness.
    For him to no reveal any crucial intelligence. Kisame commits suicide by biting his own tongue.

  63. @eugen – “if by any chance your in close proximity to Nagato”

    That, my friend, is a bloody big if. And even then, if one of his summons was Shodaime Kazekage, it wouldn’t even be an if.

  64. As I said Dark, this is only for the debate’s sake, you can use the info any way you want.
    All I wanted to point out was the eventuality of the scenario that’s all.

  65. @Eugen

    If he gets in close proximity to Nagato’s real body, then that means..

    1: All of Pein’s bodies are dead and Orochimaru tracked his real body down to finish him off or…

    2: Pein made a big mess-up. Because let’s face it, leading his enemy to his real body and making himself vulnerable is the last thing he would want to do.

    *Eats Kantonkage.*

  66. *wakes up realizes for the first time he in Tenrai’s stomach, gets up and bifurcates Tenrai then walks out* Never take advantage of me sleeping. *walks away then turns back tapes tenrai mouth together with superglue and duct tape. Then uses same method to put tenrai back together. Finally, I put him in a giant hazmat bubble* I’ve done my good deed for the day. *then walks away*

  67. I think i want to change my vote. The insane debating power DarkSenshi is to strong. I cast my vote for Orochimaru. As pointed out before pain said that if jiraya had info on him he would have probably lost. Didnt orochimaru beat jiraya. Thats a better measure of his power i think.

  68. @Kantonkage.

    *Teleports to freedom and molecularly reconstructs back to normal.*

    Hmmm… ‘Twas a mere fleshwound. <_<

    *creates an omniverse-level singularity that breaks Kantonkage down on a molecular level and erases his existence from time, space and his school's year book.*

    Never deny Tenrai his food. @___@

  69. Fine, I guess I’ll have to do it. But before I begin, let me remind you how quickly Pain killed a Kage level opponent once all Six bodies were their and actually trying to kill him (unlike in his fight with Naruto where he was only trying to subdue him), a few seconds. Once the other 3 showed up, JIRAIYA was done for. Remember Hanzo? Pain not only killed him, but his family, friends and supporters. Now that your memories have been refreshed, onward to the debate.

    “Naraka Path? He has to get close enough to lay his palm on the crown of his victims head. How would he do that? He’s not particularly fast and only has one other ability: making chakra rods.”

    No that’s human realm. He’s the one that rips out souls. And he’s slender and probably one of the faster bodies. He was fast enough to get past everyone and make it to Shizune, then get out of there fast enough before anyone could launch a counterattack.

    “(ie the First Kazekage could make an iron wall between Deva Path and his victim). Good thing also about the Kazekage is that his attacks are not pure chakra based and therefore can’t be absorbed by Chubby Path and he provides excellent defense against most of Peins abilities.”

    I think you mean the Third Kazekage. AND his abilities CAN be absorbed. He uses chakra to create a magnetic field, that’s how he manipulates his sand. So basically, he’s filling the environment with his chakra, which means its even easier for Fat Guy Realm to eat it up.

    “Jiraiya’s information is now available to all members of Orochimarus squad, so everyones aware that they’re all dead bodies and nagato is pein and Outer Path heals and blah blah blah.”

    Not quite. To make Jiraiya fight, Orochimaru would need to put the tags in him first. When they are in, Jiraiya loses his will and his ability to talk, just look back at the First and Second Hokages.

    “Let’s also not forget that these resurrected individuals are, for all intents and purposes, immortal and can regenerate any and all damage that Pein inflicts on them near instantaneously. So Pein can bring on his shinra tensei all he likes, because any damage he does will be short lived. Even orochimari can regenerate lost limbs and entire organs by simply growing himself a new body.”

    He could Shinra Tensei them miles away then use Bansho Tenin on Orochimaru and rip his soul out. OR he could just rip the souls out of the revived ninjas then they’d crumble.

    “his means that in a battle with Pein, he is likely to figure out his opponent’s abilities very quickly, especially if he has resurrected other dead, s-ranked shinobi to battle for him”

    S-RANKED SHINOBI!? GASP! Oh wait, read my first paragraph -_-‘

    “If Orochimaru can defend himself from a pure concentrated chakra blast from Naruto four tails, I doubt he will have trouble defending himself from Shinra Tensei”

    Pain’s Village Busting Shinra Tensei was far more powerful than the Four Tailed Menacing Ball. Let’s compare the craters left by each attack.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-295/11/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-450/12/

    No comparison there. Naruto’s can barely be considered a crater, its more like scorched earth, while Pain’s is…well..like a meteor impact crater.

    “Secondly, it takes a heck load of chakra to cast, so like Shinra Tensei, it would probably disable Pein’s other bodies if he had any others still active.”

    Actually, based on Konan’s responses, the Shinra Tensei took more. She said the Shinra even shortened Nagato’s life, but no such complaint for Chibaku. Think of Chiabku as Bansho Tenin but with a different focal point.

    “Lastly, Orochimaru has his snake summons, which go from being as small as a common house snake, to massive monsters like Manda.”

    Pain’s summons were shown to be overpowering Jiraiya’s. Plus Pain has far more diverse summons (including, but not limited to, a giant invisible lizard and a bird that lays exploding eggs) than simply snakes or toads. In a battle of summons, Animal Path clearly wins.

    “Pein himself said that if Jiraiya had learned his secrets, that he may have lost the battle against him.”

    Actually this applies to anyone. If a ninja knew Sasugay had lightning and fire chakra, as well as genjutsu and Susanoo and decided wear a rubber suit to the battle, master Suiton jutsus, brought teammates to dispel the genjutsu and learned the ability to absorb chakra, then he would win. Anyone knowing another ninja secrets is more likely to win. Kakashi let Zabuza get his secrets and nearly lost because of it. So Nagato saying Jiraiya might have won really doesn’t lend credibility to Jiraiya’s power, and by extension, none to Oro.

    Rinnegan, powerful Rinnegan-exclusive techs, the ability to do lots of cool shit, including ripping out souls = Pain wins, by a landslide. Oro couldn’t handle Itachi, he only lasted a few seconds, while Itachi couldn’t even hold a candle to Nagato’s power.

  70. *makes Kanton swallow a bomb that’s designed to activate only when he’s eaten*

    There, that should protect you 🙂

  71. Ignore the music, and that’s how fast he lost

  72. @Tenrai: Lol, don’t make to much a big deal out of this small debate. You’re essentially debating against 2 people here, Kisu and I. One of the smaller debates we’ve been in really. 😉

    @Dark: Hmm…you’re probably forgetting about Human Path too who is also able to rip out souls and are you forgetting how the 3rd ripped out the 1st and 2nd Hokages’ souls? Simply caught them, yes caught them with his bare hands, and ripped their souls out. Should I add the 3rd was trapped in genjutsu when he accomplished this and he can’t see people’s chakra like Pein can with his Rinnengan? Right…

    @Debate: If anyone is measuring Orochimaru’s strength off of his “fight” with Sasuke they are sorely mistaken. I highly doubt anyone would stoop to that low anyway. For the most part we’re considering his current strength and factor in his past battles for references. You also should remember it wasn’t just Orochimaru vs. Hanzou. It was Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Orochimaru vs. Hanzou. Of course you all know this though. ^_-

    Alright, so I’m shelving the Orochimaru can summon the original ninja theory? Coolio, of course you all can bring it up again at anytime if you wish.

    Hmm…so many points to pick out but Kisu covered a good majority of them. Let’s talk about Orochimaru defending himself from the 4-tails Kyubi blast with a door/shiled summoning. A summoning door that is rooted to the ground and faces forward… A door which would not block against an aerial attack… And if it could block an aerial attack, seeing as how it got decimated by the 4 tail Kyubi’s comparably weak blast then Pein’s village destroying Shira Tensei would kill absolutely kill Orochimaru.

    Black rods; Nagato isn’t the only one who has those. All the bodies have them and if they impale you they disrupt your chakra so much it paralyzses you and you can’t do jutsu. If Orochimaru is stabbed after a Bansho Tenin then there goes all his fancy jutsu.

    Edo Tensei, lol, let him summon all the Hokages and Kazekages he wants. Let them revive and resurrect their body parts. They can’t do that if they get caught and have their souls ripped out. If an 80 year old Hokage way past his prime can catch 2 Hokages and rip their souls out. How hard would it be for Pein? Not to mention the 3rd was in a genjutsu while doing all of this. Just think about it for a second and I’ll expect your answers. Am I underestimating the 3rd? Lol, of course not. It’s the 3rd! The real question is are you all underestimating Pein.

    Oh, there’s Chibaku Tensei too where he can just suck up all of Orochimaru and his summonings but that’s to easy. It took the 8 tails just to break out the thing and Pein was going to make it even bigger. Orochimaru is a genius but he’s no miracle worker. There’s just no way he could beat Pein. Lol, seriously I think you all are underestimating Pein and thinking he’ll start this match in his weakened state or something like when he fought Naruto.

  73. *a rift appears i step out and watches as Tenrai disintegrates something that is not me then kicks who is hopefully tenrai into said dimension and seals it via hyperressonace* Anyways about the debate topic was kinda of stupid I opt for a crossover debate.

  74. ON A SIDE NOTE, i think that Tobi is really Uchiha Madara’s younger brother, the hair fits, and it would make sense when Kabuto summoned the coffins that he had the real madara but was keeping it a secret because they would all know that it was really the younger brother. Plus Madara and his brother could have just exchanged eyes, the younger didn’t have to die, just like sasuke got itachi’s eyes. They probably faked the death of the younger brother. I’m goin on record with this

  75. “i think that Tobi is really Uchiha Madara’s younger brother, the hair fits”

    I have my own theory, now bare with me.

    Sarutobi used the Dead Demon Consuming Seal…that seal has 4 words that make up its name….half of four is 2, and its Japanese name consists of two words Shiki Fujin…Shiki is really close to Shikamaru…and Shikamaru’s father is Shikaku…Shikaku is just one letter short of Shukaku…Shukaku is the one tailed demon…one…there has only been one person to master Iron sand….the Third Kazekage…Third…Third Hokage….Sarutobi had spiky hair like the Third Kazekage…they must’ve been brothers!

    If anyone reading this actually took what I said seriously and was about to agree with it, then I say you’re looking for evidence that’s not really there, My “theory” was a parody of a theory >_>

  76. *Rubs eyes in disbelieve*

    Is this debate Really this big?!? I see comments with more than 5 sentences, that’s enough to make me fall asleep from exhaustion. 0__0

    The facts are Oro knows nothing about Nagato. As far as he’s concerned Pain is just one man who always uses a Cisco Systems telepresence system, the gold standard by which all business technology is judged, featuring Cisco’s cutting edge sure mute technology to mute anyone… Anyway. I still say Oro doesn’t even have time to use Edo Tensei in a fight with Pain. If he would prepare in advance and use Edo Tensei before the fight he wouldn’t know what he’d be up against. He would assemble a team to fight one man with the ability to simulate gravity… If Oro even knew Deva had that power. All Oro has ever seen Deva Path do is summon Gedo Mazo to seal a Bijuu. And even IF Oro would successfully use Edo Tensei, there are no available ninja’s who could defeat Pain. I don’t think even Minato or Madara would’ve been able to defeat Pain. The only way to defeat Pain is through exhausting his chakra or by using a Genjutsu that targets all Pains at the same time. There’s no Shinobi in the history of Naruto who could use Genjutsu on 6 targets at the same time and Nagato doesn’t seem to get exhausted quickly.

    @ dricedt,

    My thoughts exactly. Well almost. Madara’s eyes were used up so Izuna taking Madara’s eyes would have still left him blind probably. But what if Izuna did survive and took another Uchiha’s eyes. That explains the lack of a Mangekyo, the vast knowledge of almost everything that has happened in the Narutoverse and the desire to destroy Konoha and the Uchiha (Madara was betrayed by the Uchiha and lost to the First… In case nobody knew >__>). Only problem is why are his arms made out of Zetsu’s sperm and when did he collect the Rinnegan.

    But whoever he might be, Tobi is a good boy… Just look at his sharingan collection. It’s awesomeness to the max!! It must take a seriously deep resentment towards the Uchiha clan to dedicate so much of his time to collect them all. I guess Tobi’s motto is; Gotta catch ‘m all!

    *Exhaustion induced Coma kicks in.*

  77. Another Bubble:
    (From left to right again)
    GiGi, GiGiGiGiGiGiGiGi?

    Same thing we do every night Pinky, try to take over the world!

    Caption:
    I’ve got a feeling they’ll fail again… >__>

  78. Lol, this debate is a microorganism compared to some of the debates I’ve trudged through. Any veteran of this site and IRA can account for that. xD I guess it’s “big” if you look at the paragraphs.

    I left some stuff out of my last post because I’m waiting for a reply. ~_~ Any spoiler talk? I know the spoilers are out though I never look at them anymore.

  79. i’m sorry orochimaru fans, but the poll result speaks for itself… 179 to 19 for pain… and luckily you guys even managed to sway some votes in your favour…

    PAIN DOMINATES ALL!

  80. “I guess it’s “big” if you look at the paragraphs.”

    That’s what I meant. I too have seen debates here with more participants. It’s the amount of words that intimidates me. ^__^

    Seriously though, it’s a drag going through a comment that’s got more text than the breakdown above. Especially when returning to the site finding not one but several of such comments. xD

  81. Omg…let me pick apart the holes in your arguments.

    Kisu first.

    First point, Human Realm. “He was fast enough to make it past everyone and make it to shizune”

    Who is everyone? Sakura? Ino? Shikamaru? I’m bringing Kage level ninja to the field, there’s no comparing the two. Also, Human Realm took advantage of the fact that they were too busy talking amongst themselves exchanging info to notice him. I doubt Oro and his summons will be caught in the same manner. Fact of the matter is, Team Oro is alert and ready and there’s no sneaking up on them in this fight.

    As for the Third Kazekage (thanks for correcting me dude ^_^), perhaps part of his magnetic field can be absorbed (notice the perhaps; Im not sold on the idea) but see, if I fire a projectile at you at a super fast speed and you take the fuel (chakra) away, the momentum is still enough to keep it going straight through you. Whatever the case is with absorbing magnetic forces, chubby path can’t absorb iron sand. He’s a goner if he stands in the way. Or even if he doesn’t. And still he can use his iron sand to create walls/barriers to protect himself and his team from all physical attacks, keep the damned human path at bay, and fillet all the peins by filling the air with tiny iron blades and chopping them to pieces. I’m yet to hear a decent argument counteracting that. The only body that’s immune is Deva Path, but we have Danzou for that one now don’t we? 😉

    Fuda Tags. True that to make Jiraiya FIGHT he needs the tag, but In between the summoning and the placement of the Fuda Tag he has the ability to spill the beans, no? United by a common enemy, I’m sure he’d oblige.

    I want to point something out. This fascination y’all have with soul ripping. You make it sound so easy like all Human Path has to do is just run up and put his hands on their heads while they stand stupidly still. You asked us not to underestimate Pein, now I’d ask you not to underestimate the four Kage level ninja I have submitted for the debate. It is not so easy to take these guys out, certainly no easier than it would be to do so while they were alive. I’ll accept soul ripping as a suitable killing blow after the summons have been incapacitated, but not in combat. And remember before Human Path can use his tech, Sandaime Kazekage needs to be dealt with first.

    On the destructive power of the menacing ball versus that of Shinra Tensei, I have to disagree with you. The reason Naruto’s crater is smaller is for two reasons. One, he was only aiming in one direction, while Deva Path was aiming in a 360-degree radius around him for maximum destruction. Two, Deva Path was AIMING for structural damage. He was trying to destroy the village, he wanted to flatten as much of it out as possible. Naruto was aiming for one person, and that’s where the force of the blast was concentrated. He wasn’t trying to make a big hole in the ground, he was trying to make a big hole in Orochimaru. And when you think about it, he was still able to cause that much environmental damage after most of his attack was stopped by Orochimaru’s Rashomon Gates. Also, if you look at those pictures again, what you’ll notice is that the buildings Deva hit have just been pushed to the rim of the crater, whereas in Naruto’s one, anything caught in the blast was vaporized. Vaporized. Point for destruction goes to Naruto.

    Chibaku Tensei. You estimated the chakra needed based on Konans responses? Let’s instead estimate them on something a bit more substantial, like the fact that In order to get enough chakra out to Deva Path, he needed to close the distance between himself and Deva Path first. That tells me that it’s a bit more draining on him than a shinra tensei. Just because Konan doesn’t voice her disapproval, doesn’t mean it’s relatively risk free in comparison to Shinra Tensei.

    Animal Summons. Again, Sandaime Kazekage is enough to protect from attacks, while launching attacks of his own at Animal Path. Besides, there’s also Danzous Summon, Baku. That thing has been shown to inhale attacks as well as objects. I’m sure it could take on the Pein Summons quite easily. It’s like Tenrai on steroids.

    And lastly, Oro’s ability to win. So what you’re essentially saying is, now that Jiraiya knows peins abilities and has passed them on to Oro, he can win now? Great! I’m glad you see the light!

  82. Now you, super.

    Human Path again. Surprise, surprise. So, tell me: how does Human Path get past the Kazekage? Oh wait, he doesn’t.

    Even if Deva Path Giant Shinra Tenseis orochimaru, he can regenerate. In effect, he’s wasted precious chakra, incapacitated his other bodies and caused himself to be unable to attack for quite a while afterwards. Oro wins.

    Chibaku Tensei. Please reread tenrais comment, and tell me whether you have any questions.

  83. “Who is everyone? Sakura? Ino? Shikamaru?”

    Actually, everyone is Inoichi (a Jonin), Shizune (a Jonin), an Anbu and Ino. The fact is, you were making him out to be as fast as a turtle, and I proved he’s at least faster than Jonins.

    “Whatever the case is with absorbing magnetic forces, chubby path can’t absorb iron sand.”

    The magnetism is produced by chakra, and that’s the only thing maintaining the sand’s shape. So if you pull the chakra away, no matter how much momentum it has, it’ll just lose its shape, fall and become normal iron sand again. There’s no need to absorb the Iron Sand if you can absorb the chakra that makes it of any use.

    “True that to make Jiraiya FIGHT he needs the tag, but In between the summoning and the placement of the Fuda Tag he has the ability to spill the beans, no? United by a common enemy, I’m sure he’d oblige”

    Last I checked, Nagato died as a good guy, so why would Jiraiya tell the secrets of his student to the perverted snake bastard that’s trying to conquer the world? Orochi died as a bastard remember?

    “On the destructive power of the menacing ball versus that of Shinra Tensei, I have to disagree with you.”

    I disagree with everything after that sentence. Naruto’s blast clearly resulted in an explosion that wasnt even as big as Pain’s Shinra Tensei, so once again, no comparison there. Naruto’s four tailed menacing ball is closer to the Rasenshuriken in power.

    “You estimated the chakra needed based on Konans responses?”

    You forget one important detail. He used Chibaku AFTER he used Shinra. That’s why he had to get God Realm closer, he was already relatively low on chakra.

    “Animal Summons. Again, Sandaime Kazekage is enough to protect from attacks, while launching attacks of his own at Animal Path. Besides, there’s also Danzous Summon, Baku. That thing has been shown to inhale attacks as well as objects. I’m sure it could take on the Pein Summons quite easily”

    The Baku can be beaten. It only improves wind jutsus. Throw a boulder at it and make it absorb it and we’ll see what happens there.

    “I want to point something out. This fascination y’all have with soul ripping.”

    Pain not only hit Jiraiya a multitude of times, but also Naruto, and both of them were in Sage Mode. A few Kage level opponents mean nothing really.

  84. @arguement Danzo, Itachi, Jiraiya died after Orochimaru’s defeat so they don’t count..

  85. I’ve read some spoiler that kisame is dead? can anyone confirm this? http://www.mangaspoiler.com/naruto-%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E3%83%8D%E3%82%BF%E3%83%90%E3%83%AC-%E7%AC%AC507%E8%A9%B1-spoiler/

  86. I cant believe this debate is still going on. Pein was the leader of Akatsuki (so stronger than itachi), and oro couldnt even start fighting him. Even deidara could beat orochimaru, and sasori. One more thing, im unsure if I’m not mistaken though, doesnt the rinnegan possessor understand all ninjutsu, wouldn’t nagato or one of the peins be able to perform edo tensei

    “The Rinnegan is characterized by a ripple-like pattern around the pupil, with a grayish-purple iris and sclera. In addition to enabling the user to quickly master various jutsu, the user may also use all six forms of chakra nature transformation which, as noted by Ibiki Morino, literally allows its user to use any technique they wish”- http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Rinnegan

    Pein is unstoppable, only some1 with all knowledge on him could beat him, but 3 Peins were enough to almost kill Jiraiya, and bringing out the remaining three made it a joke. Imagine all six right away fighting against orochimaru.

    Naruto was only able to defeat Pain, 1. because nagato believed in him and didnt try to put up a fight. 2. because a massive shinra tensei targeting all of konoha was performed draining most of the peins. 3. pein did not want to kill naruto. 4. if we don’t recall didnt nagato beat naruto, and then hinata came and saved the day by getting slammed against the floor and stabbed. 5. orochimaru at full power was unable to beat konoha, with gaara, the village of sand, kabuto and village of sound helping out while pein wiped them out by himself (konan didnt do much).

    I think a better debate would have been Pein vs. 3 Sannin in their prime

  87. i realized at the end there that my last 2 reasons had nothing to do with naruto beating pein, but they are reasons why we can consider pein stronger than orochimaru

  88. sorry for the triple post, but if by any chance u think the human path or naraka path couldnt reach orochimaru because of speed… at least the gedo mazo could accomplish the feat, “Nagato uses the statue to spew a dragon-like creature from its mouth, which removes the souls of any person it comes in contact with.” narutopedia

  89. Kisu, I said Kage. Ka-ge. Not Jonin.

    And as for Chubby Path, he absorbs chakra at close range, so he can’t absorb the chakra powering the iron sand until it’s a meter away from him. Last I checked, Chubby Paths ability affects only chakra. This said, it has no effect on physical matter, which means the sand doesn’t just stop and fall in midair.

    To demonstrate this point, I’d like to use a real life example. A fragmentation grenade. A fragmentation grenade has two key killing components: the explosion and subsequent shockwave, and the shrapnel. When one is detonated, the shockwave hurls the splinters as far as 250 meters away. Now, the blast radius on an M67 is roughly 12-14m, and it is at that point which the shockwave stops having any influence on the flying shrapnel. Going by your theory, Kisu, the shrapnel should just flop to the ground as soon as it leaves this 14 meter radius. But they don’t. Why is that? Oh yes, momentum. Momentum keeps it going far beyond the blast radius until it hits something. Kisu, the iron sand may lose part of it’s shape at one meter away, but it’s silly to think it would lose it’s momentum. It’s flying shrapnel at worst. And shrapnel hurts.

    Nagato died as a good guy? But dude, in this matchup, he’s not dead, thus he is not a good guy yet. Please tell me if I missed anything important in that sentence of yours cos right Now it doesn’t make much sense.

    As for destructive power, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. The size of the explosion doesn’t mean it’s more powerful. As I said before, Shinra Tensei is a pushing technique that pushes objects away from the user. It varies in power, yes, but the principle remains the same. All Pein did was tear down buildings and push dirt and debris to the rim of the crater. What Naruto did, however, was VAPORIZE what was in the blast radius. What was caught in the blast, ceased to exist. Notice the key difference? Pein pushed buildings down. Had it been Naruto, there wouldn’t be a building. By definition of “destruction”, Naruto wins. And as I pointed out before, all the summon plus Oro can heal then attack a now helpless and alone Deva Path. Had it been Naruto, there would not be enough of Orochimaru left to regenerate.

    Chibaku Tensei. I don’t agree with the whole “less chakra than shinra” thing, but whatever. It’s not provable by any normal means so I will settle for “roughly the same amount of chakra as shinra”. Either way, there are still several issues with it. One, Deva Path only brought it out to contain (key word) the nine tails cos he had no other means of capturing it in it’s state. Why would he use it against human opponents? Don’t you think it’s a bit excessive to take down 4 guys by making a moon? Two, the other bodies need to be deactivated, and once it happens, he’s vulnerable for a certain timeframe. If he misses, he’s screwed. Would he take the risk? On four PEOPLE? I don’t think so. Bringing out his biggest guns against “mere mortals” (remember this guy considers himself a God) goes against his character. In his eyes, Oro and his team wouldn’t be worthy of witnessing his best and most godlike techniques. End of the story is, he wouldn’t use it unless he was completely out of options. And even then, he still probably wouldn’t do it.

    Baku. It would have to be a pretty damn big boulder to do anything. Have you seen the size of it’s mouth? Enough to swallow any of Peins summons, and even Animal Path itself.

    “A few Kages mean nothing really” LOL! Omg…LOL! I think you put a little too much faith in Pein. As I said before, get Human Path past the Kazekage’s perfect defense and then we’ll talk.

  90. @kanton – omg so we can’t summon people who died too long ago, we can’t summon people who died too recently…come on man, your side of the debate is supposed to prove Pein’s dominance, not how many options you can strip from Orochimaru before Pein can win.

    @omar – the Pein bodies specialize in one type of jutsu each. I have no doubt that Nagato himself could learn the technique if he was taught or shown, but not his bodies. And with the addition of Jiraiya as a summon, Orochimaru already knows all he needs to in order to win. And bringing up Nagato’s past victories does not negate the points me and Tenrai have put up. To win this debate, you need to counter our points with specific examples of what Pein can do to neutralize our arguments.

  91. @dark your right Pein has the I-hack lets give orochimaru a fair advantage so I take off my edo tensei resurrection bans.*destroys said law by shoving down kisu’s throat as revenge for the bomb from earlier*

  92. But don’t forget Kimimaro as a summon that guy was a beast.

  93. Right, this is what I mean by it’s like Pein is being completely judged off his fight with Naruto. Lol, yes use it as a reference point but it’s not the same fight. I know how much Chibaku Tensei drains its user. I also know Pein is starting this battle fresh, not like when he fought Naruto. You know, after he ran around using precious chakra attacking the village? Then he used even more chakra to destroy the village? Then fighting Naruto with summonings, gravitational pulls and thrusts, and resurrecting bodies using up more chakra? Then he used Chibaku Tensei and all of a sudden if Pein ever uses it in battle with Orochimaru this is the state he’ll wind up in. xD

    Now, what’s the greatest damage Orochimaru has ever regenerated from? He’s Orochimaru, not Majin Buu. I highly doubt he can regenerate after being smashed into a bloody pulp by a force powerful enough to create a giant crater in Konoha. I don’t even understand why the power levels of Naruto’s 4 tail blast is being compared to Pein’s Shira Tensei. One attack comes from head on while the other comes from above. One attack cannot be blocked like the other one was. Take a guess.

    How does Human Path get to the Kazekage? Bansho Tenin? Lol, and screw the Kazekage. Pein can just go straight for Orochimaru and take the head of the snake. Bansho Tenin Orochimaru into the Human Path’s grasp and rip his soul out. Then they can worry about his summonings. Or Chibaku Tensei every single one of them and crush/trap them in the giant rock. Unless any of Orochimaru summonings or Orochimaru himself have 8 tail like Kyubi power I don’t expect them to be escaping any time soon.

    Lastly, something I left out of my last post on purpose; summonings. Orochimaru can have all the snakes he wants but they’re nothing compared to an undying multiplying dog, a bird that can drop bombs, and whatever else Pein pulls off. Orochimaru’s snake summonings pale in comparison to what Pein can muster so if you all want to bring summonings up be my guest. I’m still waiting for an answer on this btw.

    “If an 80 year old Hokage way past his prime can catch 2 Hokages and rip their souls out. How hard would it be for Pein? Not to mention the 3rd was in a genjutsu while doing all of this. Just think about it for a second and I’ll expect your answers.”

    Oh, and he also caught Orochimaru himself. Basically, how hard would it be for Pein to catch Orochimaru or any of his summonings if the 3rd could do it in his comparably poor state?

  94. Hi everyone I’m new! I’ve been following this blog for a bit. I decided to join just to give my two cents on this debate. There’s no way Pein loses this fight. I won’t say much cuz I think Super and Kisu have said it all, but if they’re starting on a level playing field I don’t see what’s stopping Pein from using Bansho Tenin to fly Oro straight in to Fat Guy Realm’s chakra sucking arms before Oro even uses Edo Tensei. Remember, Edo Tensei requires alot of hand seals and Bansho Tenin requires none.

  95. -_-

    @super – Not once have I said nor assumed that Nagato is starting this match with anything less than a chakra bank full to the brim. In fact I even acknowledged the fact that if it became a long and drawn out battle, Orochimaru would most likely run out of steam first. This does not change the fact that his biggest techniques are real chakra drainers that leave Deva Path completely helpless while he recovers. We are not saying he will die or become incapacitated after using these techs, we are saying that the recovery time of these jutsu are enormous and put Pein at a significant disadvantage.

    Bloody pulp lol. I think the worse we saw was Shikamaru’s broken leg. Even Tsunade, who was drained of her healing chakra and quite possibly the closest person to Pein at the time escaped with a few scratches and yet was still able to fight. Well, she tried to anyway. Does it even need to be blocked? It was more for structural damage than actually inflicting injury.

    And omg I already dealt with bansho tenin. Unless you misread one of my previous posts, the Kazekage could place a metal wall between Deva Paths target and Deva Path, holding him back. And yes, not only is the Kazekage going to stand still and allow the Human Path to pass him by, Orochimaru is going to bow down, point to his head and say “here dude, take my soul”. No. We know that Orochimaru is quick. We know that he uses clones effectively. We know he can merge with the ground (or anything else around him) and hide from his attackers. Even if Human Path were somehow (somehow…?) able to get past the perfect defense of the Kazekage, it would not be a matter of just waltzing up to Orochimaru and taking his soul. He’d need to burn his chakra reserves and corner him before taking his soul. Good luck with that.

    Chibaku Tensei. I already explained that he’s not likely to use this technique as it goes against his character. Unless you can prove otherwise, this argument is fail.

    Summons. Since everyone feels like dancing around my Baku comment (which I still feel is more than enough to take out the Pein Summons) we’ll go with Orochimaru’s snakes. In the same way that snakes eat toads, snakes also hunt and eat birds. A snake can strike at blinding speed. If the bird sweeps in too close…BOOM! Massive three headed snake just ate massive bird. If the dog gets too close, the snakes can wrap around and constrict the body of the dog. Not even the chameleon can hide from them. Snakes hunt by scent, so becoming invisible is not an issue. Furthermore, Orochimaru can pull off as much of these summons as he likes. And on top of that, his Yamata Dragon transformation is enough to take on any of Peins Summons by himself.

  96. Oh and hi urbanvolcano!

  97. @Dark – Thanks for the welcome! Isn’t the only reason why Pein’s Almighty Push didn’t kill most of Konoha’s population because Tsunade used her sealed chakra to encase everyone in a Katsuyu? I remember a couple pages with Katsuyu vomiting ninjas and townsfolk following the destruction of Konoha. That would explain why there weren’t more dead people (although there were alot of dead people in general if we remember the amount of souls given back by the Gedo Rinne Tensei)
    Kazekage – Perfect defense? There’s a theme in Naruto, that there’s no such thing as a perfect defense. Even Susanoo was susceptible at one point. And where is the Kazekage going to get the amount of iron sand to form this perfect defense? Sand is primarily made of silica, so not from the ground. Maybe he’ll be resurrected with a couple tons of it?? I doubt it. And if he forms a dome, then that’s great, it’s no benefit to Oro either. No one gets in or out. I also don’t think that this iron sand defense would stand a chance against a Shinra Tensei that blew Gamabunta and his friends out of the village while breaking most of their bones.

  98. Lol, I suppose you forgot most of the villagers were covered in Tsunade’s snails to keep them safe and the Hokage building where Tsunade was located is near the outskirts of the village, not in the center where Pein’s attack was directed. Pein would direct his attack directly at Orochimaru and smooh, just like a bug.

    The reason why I’m pointing out Pein is starting fresh is because the only defense you all can summon against Chibaku Tensei is that it’s chakra consuming. Good job. Oh, and there’s “Pein wouldn’t use it”. Right, because it’s definitely going against his character to use a technique he’s used before. That argument is full of win.

    Your “dealing” with Bansho Tenin would require the Kazekage to put up a metal wall for Orochimaru to smash into as he’s being sucked into Pein. Nice, I like this solution too. Hey, or Pein could just make Orochimaru go around the wall as he sucks him in! O_O Lol, it doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out. Though it would be pretty funny to smash him against an iron wall of sand.

    And I know your Baku summoning was used but I didn’t want to say the obviousness of the bird dropping a bomb into his snorkel as it sucks everything in. Lol, and why would the bird get close enough to get snatched up by a snake? I would love an answer to that. Ah yes, let Orochimaru turn into a giant multi-headed snake (Yamata Dragon). All the bigger target to catch a Shira Tensei. =)

    Btw, I should start bringing up even if Orochimaru destroys 5 certain bodies they can just be resurrected. Oh yeah, and how many hand signs does it take to perform Edo Tensei compared to a Bansho Tenin or a Shira Tensei? I wonder…

    @Urban: Welcome to WRA and enjoy your stay! What a nice debut! ;D

  99. @super evrybody was just trying to defend a sinking ship.
    Damn it pickles you should now by now to never have a Pein vs anyone in the Naruniverse. *fires more exploding boulders at the mastermind known as pickles*
    @urban welcome to WRA

  100. @super and kantonkage – thanks for the welcome!
    @pickles – don’t give in to kantonkage! I vote a Pein vs. Tenten debate for next week. Dark has some serious skill, I bet he could find a way for Tenten to beat up on Pein! 😉

    __________

    LOL! I mean…LOL!

    – Dark

  101. Btw pickles, I love you breakdowns, keep it up!

  102. in my opinion, this debate has turned from orochimaru vs. pein to… every shinobi thats died in the past + oro vs. pein. He isnt going to bring back all of the kages ever. apart from that, remember the edo tensei used against sandaime hokage, it takes a while to open up (remember sandaime was able to stop the 3rd coffin from opening). now, i dont know why u think preta pain cant stop the iron sand. Its a type of ninjutsu, and he absorbs ninjutsus.

    “This path’s “Chakra Absorption” ability was primarily defensive, since it was capable of absorbing any ninjutsu-related technique, thereby nullifying its effect. This technique could also take the form of a barrier around its body, allowing it to absorb attacks from all directions. In addition to its defensive properties, this body’s ability had also shown offensive capabilities, as it could absorb all the chakra out of any person that it touched or grabbed.”

    Assuming ur guys’ assumptions on all of the things orochimaru could do vs. nagato, this would happen,

    3, 2, 1, *FIGHT

    Orochimaru goes nuts with summons and summons Every kage in the history of ninjas and all akatsuki members that are dead, and lets say the coffins arise.

    Before the coffins open, Deva path sucks orochimaru in with bansho tenin, human realm and naraka path both go and whichever gets there first sux orochimarus soul out. You then find out that that was kawarimi no jutsu, or he uses his kasanagi sword to slice human realm. Naraka path then revives human realm. The coffins open. Nagato then uses chibaku tensei and sucks the corpses and captures them before they get their little papers inserted in them. Or he sends laser head to shoot cannons and disintegrate the still cold and dead corpses that do not have their kekkei genkais yet.

    Now if we assume that they all get summoned then u might have a case. Everyone vs. Pein might end up with pein losing. Even so though, lets say he summons The sandaime, nidaime and the first hokage, the bird and dog vs. god enma (i think that was the name of the ape) seems like a close fight, then nidaime and sandaime both use suiton suishouha and katon ryu endan at the same time, and preta path just absorbs it…. all while they’re being sucked in and out, or affected by a Moon-sized chibaku tensei from the start….. OOORRR, gedo mazo can just swoop by while all of this is going on…

  103. but since orochimaru will keep summoning things, pein will run out of chakra, and then orochimaru will win (sarcasm)… especially because orochimaru has infinite chakra supplies

  104. Oh wait, so what you’re saying is that Tsunade’s summon protected her from any lasting injuries? Oh well in that case Orochimaru’s summons should be able to do something similar! We’ve seen him use them to protect himself against significant damage so a giant snake should absorb most of the shock and whatever damage was sustained could be regenerated.

    And super, please, listen to me. I’m only going to say this once more. I don’t care that it’s chakra consuming, what I and tenrai have said several times now is that it leaves him vulnerable because he can’t use any of Deva Paths abilities for a fair while after using a giant shinra/chibaku tensei. Is this not the case? And it’s just as out of character as it is for Kakashi to use Kamui as soon as he enters a fight (remember that one?). He used Chibaku Tensei becaus there was NO OTHER WAY for him to capture the nine tails. Convince me he’ll use it and I’ll accept your point, otherwise I fart in the general direction of your comment. *farts* XD

    And I don’t know about smashing into the wall. I’m sure Oro knows how to put his feet/hands up and have them in front of him so that he can minimize the impact. And then the Kazekage can make part of the iron wall turn into tiny blades or metal pellets and shoot them at Deva Path. Five second interval between using his abilities = no option but to dodge. And we all know how easy it is to dodge a bullet. -_-

    Now for the bird. Bombs are only part of it’s ability. It also swoops in and smashes into it’s targets with it’s beak. A snakes striking speed is phenomenal. One slip up and the bird is gone. How hard is it going to be for said bird to accurately hit a target with it’s bomb droppings while flying high enough to evade the giant snakes? On top of that, a snake will hunt down and find the animal path that’s hiding inside the giant chameleon. If the summoner dies, the bird disappears and isn’t even an issue in the first place.

    Now, hand signs. F*ck me. I addressed this issue AGES back. He summons his bodies before entering the fray. I mean, if Pein is allowed to bring dead bodies in, why can’t Oro? As for the Kazekage’s iron sand, he’s bringing it with him before entering the fight.

    Resurrected bodies. Yes they can be healed, but if Naraka path is incapacitated, it’s no longer a factor. Oro and his summons can regenerate by themselves.

  105. @Omar – lol I’ve named only three summons: Sandaime Kazekage, Jiraiya and Danzou. That’s not every kage level ninja who ever lived.

  106. @Debate – you know what? Screw this! I’m sending the link to this debate to that tv show “Dealiest Warrior” and have them settle the debate once and for all!

  107. Lol, no Dark it’s not the case. Deva Path could use Shira Tensei in a short period after using Chibaku Tensei without having to recharge. You can say it over and over and over again Dark but it doesn’t change your case from being wrong. Are you going to point it out to me again now? o_O I already know you don’t care about the chakra drain issue but unfortunately that’s your only other defense beside “Pein won’t use Chibaku Tensei”.

    Thank you for bringing up Kakashi’s use of MS as soon as he entered battle btw because I was one of the ones arguing he could use it as his first move in a battle. Case in point he did it twice in the manga. I’m giving to you the fact of Chibaku Tensei is an option in battle. I won’t say and never have said he’ll use it right off the bat. It’s an option and it’s there. Lol, fart, deny, do as you please but it doesn’t change the fact that he can use Chibaku Tensei. Do you want me to offer you the manga page for this proof?

    I won’t even try to convince you because by your logic Deva Path used Chibaku Tensei in an attempt to win the battle against Naruto but he won’t atempt it to win the battle against Orochimaru. With that kind of logic there will be no convincing.

    Like I said, Deva Path could just maneuver Orochimaru around the wall. xD Again, why would the bird get close enough to get eaten? I don’t care about inaccuracy of bombs. It’s better than being eaten don’t you think? Besides he doesn’t need accuracy if your Baku summoning is sucking up everything on the field. ~_~ Besides that, that’s just 1 of Pein’s numerous summonings.

    Whoa now! Orochimaru is allowed to summon and use jutsu before the battle!? Well I’ll be damned somebody should have notified me about the rules. I thought contestants start fresh, no jutsus used yet, and no summonings on the field. Lol, well I’m sorry I must have been unfair to think this. -_-

    Pein are the 6 paths of Pein! The 6 Paths of Pein is Pein! They’re not summons, they’re all one being connected to Nagato, this is common knowledge to…everyone! Lol, that has nothing to do with you allowing Orochimaru to use Edo Tensei and summoning a few Kages up before battle. Is that what Orochimaru has to defend himself now? Using jutsus before the battle even starts? Nice one.

  108. Tenten vs pain = almost tenten vs temari just don’t blink.

  109. also if u let pple do things before the battle, what would keep orochimaru from summoning every strong warrior ever. He could just let his chakra recover, have a cup of tea with all the kages that he killed, and then just have an army waiting for pein. But that’d b unfair.

    now i still think we never really saw all six peins in action all together. kakashi is hokage level with a mangekyou sharingan, and it took only two peins to defeat him. it took three to defeat jiraiya whos on par with orochimaru. all six together would have a team work like none other. i think anything 4 on 6 and under would lose. If there are more than 5 summons, then yes orochimaru wins. Thats another thing, we dont know what kind of team work danzou, kazekage and jiraiya have in order to execute this awesome fighting strategy. remember 1st and 2nd hokage were used to fighting together.

    Now lastly, since we cannot get an answer here that would convince u dark, i will use narutopedia again

    Nagato was an extraordinarily powerful shinobi, and recognized as the *most powerful member of Akatsuki*. It has been noted at several points in time that Nagato possessed an *unusually large amount of exceptionally strong chakra.* His partner, Konan, had stated that he had never lost a single battle, and that he is “unbeatable.”[8] Even Fukasaku stated that without understanding Pain’s power, no one could beat him.

    SO some syllogisms for all the logic students out there…

    Orochimaru was in akatsuki
    Pein was the strongest in akatsuki
    Pein is stronger than orochimaru

    People that don’t understand pein’s power can’t beat him
    Orochimaru is a person who doesn’t understand pein’s power
    Orochimaru can’t beat pein

    and guys stop ignoring my gedo mazo summoning answer to the debate, unless im wrong in which case id like to be corrected.

    to seal the bijuus “the statue has an added blindfold, a bit in its mouth, and shackles on its arms”… take those shackles and blindfold off and suck souls out at will

  110. Right. So, in our previous debates it’s been allowable for Naruto to enter the fight in Sage mode, but not for Orochimaru to use Edo Tensei before the fight. Double standards…nice. So what, in order to use Edo Tensei, orochimaru has to gather his sacrifices, prepare them, and then summon the souls of his chosen ninja, ALL while fighting Pein? Come on dude, as I said to Kantonkage, you’re supposed to be debating Peins superiority, not how many limitations you can place on Orochimaru before he becomes helpless. You’ve place restrictions on who he can summon, and now you’re placing restrictions on when he can summon and how he is allowed to prepare for his fights?

    As for the delay between Deva Path using his abilities, it’s funny because it’s been said in the manga that the length of the delay between using Peins jutsus is in proportion to the power of the magnitude of the jutsu used. Normal shinra tensei = five second delay. Big shinra tensei = much longer delay. Normal Banshou tenin = 5 second delay, big banshou tenin (chibaku tensei) = no delay whatsoever? Come on dude. And if you re read the chapter when he breaks free of chibaku tensei, you’ll notice that (after the dialogue that lasts for more than five seconds) Deva Path charges at Naruto, who snaps off his chakra rod and kicks him into a wall. Why doesn’t Deva Path use shinra tensei to repel naruto before he can grab him? Why dies he even charge at him in the first place when he could just use a banshou tenin? Maybe because…he can’t?

    Pein used Chibaku Tensei to survive not to win, because otherwise Six-Tailed naruto would have eaten him whole. If he hadn’t, he would have failed his mission and that meant more to him than losing a fight. I have already explained how he used it as an absolute last resort against a being too powerful for him to overcome. Surely you can appreciate that.

    If Pein has to dodge bullets, he has to let Oro go. As for summons, it doesn’t matter how useless the bird is so long as it’s alive? Then what’s the point of even having it out? As for the other summons, I’ve already dealt with the dog and the chameleon. Sea snakes eat crabs amongst other crustaceans such as the occasional lobster (soft underbellies may have something to do with it), so I imagine the same philosophy applies to his lobster summon. What else is there?

    So if I look at your previous comment, the only thing that Pein has left is his Chibaku Tensei. Since you are bent on this jutsu being the key to Peins victory, I believe one of the summons I named was Danzou. Danzou has izanagi which makes anything that happens to him in 60 seconds an illusion. Chibaku tensei means nothing to him. Shinra tensei means nothing to him. A minute is all it would take for Danzou to finish off an entirely defenseless Deva Path and the Chibaku Tensei would collapse.

  111. @kanton,

    are u kidding of course tenten would win, by the logic of this debate, tenten would rig the entire field of explosives that could blow up an entire country, then when pein steps on them they both die.

  112. all im asking is that orochimaru has to use edo tensei as he did against the third hokage… not with 5 pple at his side the second the fight starts

  113. also banshou tenin and chibaku tensei are not the same, chibaku tensei is not a stronger banshou tenin. another thing we underestimate is that pein fought the main character of this show. that means that he isnt going to use his strongest attack from the beginning. it being a last resort in this case is simply because he underestimated naruto. Lets say he doesnt underestimate orochimaru and he’ll kill him. similar to how sasuke was saved by the plot against itachi. Itachi couldve used susano from the start and kicked his ass. after danzou kills himself using izanagi, and defeats deva pein, nagato will resurrect either all of them, or just use naraka path to revive them, in which case danzo is helpless.

  114. @Omar – Narutopedia is a community of fans who write articles based on their interpretation of what they read. When I first started debating in IRA, a lot of my points were invalidated because they were referenced from Narutopedia as opposed to the actual manga. Don’t make the same mistakes I did, go out and find the manga pages and submit them as evidence. And the opinions of Fukasaku and Konan are just that. Opinions. Just cos someone says something does not make it fact. As for Gedo Mazo. Using that in his current state would kill him. In fact, it did. o_O a suicide kill is not a victory.

  115. @omar – Nagato can’t resurrect the peins himself. His ability restores souls to their bodies. The Six Paths of Pein do not have souls, they are robots controlled by Pein himself. Otherwise he could have restored the original Animal Path.

  116. @Omar – and why isn’t Chibaku Tensei a bigger version of Banshou Tenin? The principle is the same (pulling objects towards a gravitational centre) except pein isn’t the centre gravitational centre in Chibaku Tensei, whereas he is in Banshou Tenin. Does that small fact change the nature of the jutsu or it’s limitations? Nope.

    (see how annoying triple posts are? lol)

  117. Err…you’re comparing Naruto preparing Sage Clones before the the fight with Orochimaru summoning Kages before the fight. Additional fighters. Just a little bit different but I knew this would be brought up. The reason Naruto is allowed to prepare Sage Clones specifically before the fight is because it’s apart of his Sage Mode. The clones ARE him and all the clones do is allow him to hold Sage Mode longer. It doesn’t summon additional fighters to the battle field. Sure, you can prepare for fights. Get kunai, smoke bombs, scrolls, grab a pepsi. Summon Kages!? We might as well have Chibaku Tensei up and running as Pein steps on to the battle field then. -_-

    You know for being so confident in Orochimaru’s abilities to overcome Pein I find it funny how you’re so determined to have Kages by his side as he enters this battle. Doesn’t really seem that confident to me.

    I know all about the length of delay between the abilities but you said Deva Path couldn’t use any of his powers “for awhile” after using Chibaku Tensei. If you can point out where I said there was no delay after using Chibaku Tensei that’d be nice. What I’m pointing out is Pein could use Shira Tensei “after a short while” of using Chibaku Tensei. A much shorter time delay than after using the big Shira Tensei. Simple as that.

    He used Chibaku Tensei to survive but not to win? o_O You’re telling me he didn’t use Chibaku Tensei to capture Naruto and take him back to base which is…correct me if I’m wrong winning? Lol, you are absolutely correct in saying he did it to survive. Does this mean he can’t do both at the same time? Win and survive? It’s a battle of course he’d be doing both at the same time unless he planned on losing! XD

    Hmmm…seeing as how I already stated how the bird would take out Baku it really isn’t useless is it? The snake can easily be forced pushed out of the way leaving Pein’s multitude of other summonings free to battle. Either that or they can just gang up on Manda and kill it. Nah, let’s just force push the snake out of the way. That’s if Orochimaru has the time to summon the thing.

    If Chibaku Tensei is our key bet on winning this battle then should we oversimplify too and say Orochimaru summoning with Edo Tensei before the battle even starts is his only key to victory? =( Seems kinda petty.

  118. @Super

    I have to agree with Darks on a few points. Firstly, we need to remember that Pein also has to prepare his bodies as well, so him coming into the fight with all six is highly unlikely unless he knew he was going into a battle. We saw this with his battle against Jiraiya, where he had to activate each of his bodies, so you can’t say that it isn’t the case. I don’t see why Orochimaru using Edo Tensei is debatable when we are clearly putting him up against all six bodies of Pein.

    Double standards, as Darks would say. If you want to have Pein with six bodies, then you need to concede to the fact that Orochimaru will be using Edo Tensei.

    Now, onwards…

    As for the comparison between Naruto’s four tails chakra blast and Shinra Tensei, just because Shinra Tensei has a larger area of effect, that doesn’t make it more powerful. That is like saying a fireball jutsu is more powerful than a Rasengan, simply because it has a wider area of effect, but tell me, if you used a Fire ball jutsu on a steel wall and a rasengan on it, which it more likely to punch through?

    I think I made my point. If Pein’s super shinra Tensai was so much more powerful, then why did practically everyone in Konoha survive it? Lol. I mean, Tsunade was running towards the centre of the blast and she STILL survived with barely any chakra left and minimal defense, while Katsuyu was all who was needed to protect everyone else. Tell me, what do you think would happen to Katsuyu if she was hit by a direct chakra blast from Naruto four tails?

    I think it is safe to say that if Oro could defend himself from that, and still survive, then he could effectively defend himself from a super Shinra Tensei as well.

    @Kisu

    Your point about how quickly Jiraiya died once facing all six paths is also irrelevant. This isn’t Jiraiya battling, it is Orochimaru. Jiraiya died because he was impaled, but if that was orochimaru, he wouldn’t have been killed by something like that. In fact, he is basically unkillable. We have seen him regenerate entire body parts that have been blown off. Hell, he even survived being chopped in half. He also won’t be fighting alone, unlike Jiraiya. He will fight with whoever he summons, including Kage level resurrections. Remember, Pein’s weakness is one-on-one battle so although he may have beaten Jiraiya six on one, what about six-on-six, or twelve-on-six, or twenty-on-six?

    Hmmm… suddenly that quick defeat you spoke of seams highly unlikely.

  119. Well then. I suppose I should hand in my resignation notice as Orochimaru Defender. If he is not allowed to prepare by bringing in his summons then I’m withdrawing. Congratulations dude! It wasn’t your debating skills that won you the debate but the limitations you seem to be able to pluck out of your ass and place wherever you feel like it, whenever you feel like it. Including halfway through the debate you’re participating in. Good job! XD



    Don’t give up Darks, I am here to back you up now!

    Tenrai Senshi

  120. @Dark – Man, you sure are tireless. If you’re going to lecture Omar on the merits of citing Narutopedia, then we should take a second look at the arguments you have been making about the summons based on properties and characteristics of the natural world. The fact that sea snakes eat lobsters or whatever in our natural world is thereby irrelevant to any arguments between Oro’s and Animal Path’s summons. Just cuz snakes strike at a “phenomenal” speed (how quantitative) in our natural world, it doesn’t mean anything to the Naruniverse.
    Also, I think we need to agree that very little is known about Edo Tensei. We’ve been assuming that Oro can summon absolutely anyone he wants of anyone who’s dead in the Naruniverse (regardless of timing of death.. aka before or after Oro was sealed). What Kisu, Super, I and others have reservations about is if, in fact, Oro can summon anyone he wants. Jutsus of that power in Naruto tend to be double edge swords (mangekyo users losing eyesight, rasenshuriken tearing up Naruto’s arm). Looking through the manga, of all the encounters with Oro, he has only used Edo Tensei ONCE. He didn’t use it against Itachi when he was part of Akatsuki, he didn’t use it against 4-tail Naruto, he didn’t use it against Sasuke, or Itachi when he got sealed. For some reason, he only used Edo Tensei against the Third. It seems to me that if you’re making the argument that Pein doesn’t like to use Chibaku Tensei, then I can make a similar argument that Oro doesn’t like to use Edo Tensei, and therefore wouldn’t use it in his battle against Pein.

  121. @Dark – oops seems I’m late to the party.
    @Tenrai – the difference is that Oro would be using at JUTSU before the battle started. Pein isn’t performing a jutsu to control his bodies, he’s just using chakra control. Just because Pein has a natural advantage in numbers doesn’t mean we should try to unfairly stack the playing field on Oro’s side. Maybe we should let him start with all his sound ninja too?

  122. @urbanvolcano87

    The fact is that we have seen Kabuto use Edo Tensei to summon just about every Akatsuki that has died except for Hidan, because he is not dead. So there doesn’t seem to be any limit to who can be summoned and the technique has never been shown to weaken Orochimaru or Kabuto in any way, regardless of how many are resurrected.

    We also know that bodies are NOT needed, because, well, Deidara doesn’t have a body, and Konan has Nagato’s body and yet those two were resurrected perfectly fine.

    Until we actually see those limitations or drawbacks you are referring to, we can’t assume what they are, if there are any at all. Also, when he fought Naruto, he seemed to be doing pretty fine if you ask me, despite being weakened. He actually seemed to be enjoying the battle, so why use Edo Tensei if there was no need? I can understand why he didn’t use it against sasuke. Because he was on his death bed and couldn’t do much at all really, other than become a big snake. Against Itachi he didn’t use any jutsu, last i recalled, so there is no basis to say that he wouldn’t have used Edo Tensei.

    Darks and I have also both already given our comments on chibiki Tensei. In my point, I said that it would be stupid of Pein to use because it takes too much chakra, it could easily be avoided and Pein has to be closer to his real body to cast it, which is also a risk. I never said he couldn’t or wouldn’t do it, I just pointed out why it wouldn’t be wise to, in the same manner one would say it isn’t wise to use a wind jutsu against a fire jutsu.

  123. Nani? Someone, anyone, I’ll give them a dollar. 😉 If they can point out to me who Pein is.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-379/page014.html

    Oh snap. That’s Pein? O_O That’s Pein huh, one mind, one consensus, one power source. Are they summons? No. Are they more than one person? Bodily speaking, yes. Are they Pein, yes. Lol, it’s hilarious how saying Pein fighting as he is, is somehow on par with Orochimaru (the fighter) summoning Kages before the fight to help him win against his opponent. That’s ridiculous.

    And then you say we’re limiting him. Limiting him by placing restrictions on what you can do before, I repeat, before the battle? Your whole argument for winning is not based on Orochimaru’s skills in battle but how he can use Edo Tensei before the battle even starts! O_O Is this a debate or a prep contest? Should we let Pein conjure up a Chibaku Tensei before the battle or surround his opponent before the battle starts? No, the unspoken rules have always had the opponents face each other down with nothing but the basics until the battle starts.

    Lol, you all are discrediting your defendant by resorting to such cheap tactics. It’s a shame to because even if this match is one sided surely Orochimaru can do better than that.

  124. @supertrek89

    Yes, they are Pein…. and they are also usually asleep. 😛

    So if you don’t mind having five sleeping guys fighting against Orochimaru, that’s fine, because that means it is still a one-on-one battle. Also as I have mentioned already, Orochimaru doesn’t need bodies of the dead to use Edo Tensei, so it is not like he cannot just cast it in battle. The casting speed is very quick as well, so quick, in fact, that he used it as a defense against Hiruzen’s Shadow Shuriken jutsu.

    We also know that the sacrifices he uses for the resurrection don’t have to be in his vicinity to use. I mean, last I recalled, he was alone against Hiruzen inside the barrier when he resurrected the First and Second Hokage. I didn’t see any dead bodies near or around him. O_o

    Battles take time, they always do. i don’t know why people always resort to this instant win scenario. Orochimaru is not that weak that Pein would kill him in the first few seconds of battle and the more time that passes, the more Orochimaru can summon.

  125. @urban – so, the striking speed that Orochimaru’s snakes have displayed in the anime and in the manga are hereby disallowed purely because I used real world examples, never mind the fact that I demonstrated how they’d do it in the Naruniverse as well? For effs sake…Super, next time there’s a debate, can you please put up a post defining what Is and what isn’t acceptable? This is getting ridiculous.

    “for some reason he only used it against the Third.”

    For some reason? I’m sorry but “for some reason” doesn’t convince me to drop my Edo Tensei argument. I said that it’s against Pein’s MO to use Chibaku Tensei on mere mortals, and then provided a solution as to how Team Oro could negate it if indeed he did use it (Danzo’s Izanagi). And perhaps you’re forgetting that “for some reason” he couldn’t use Edo Tensei in all his battles is because he needs live sacrifices that are prepared beforehand before he can use it? I don’t think he was expecting that ambush by Sasuke, and even if he was he wasn’t in any condition to prepare live sacrifices. Vs four tails Naruto because he didn’t need it maybe? Four tails in all it’s terrible power didn’t even leave a mark on Orochimaru. On itachi? Yes because he can really prepare bodies while trapped inside Sasuke.

  126. @tenrai – sooo Orochimaru didn’t use any jutsu against Itachi? Was it because maybe Itachi was too fast for Orochimaru? Why couldn’t Pein also take out Orochimaru before he uses Edo Tensei or any other jutsu? I think with Pein’s arsenal, that would be easy for him. I’m fine with Oro preparing the bodies for his summons and whatnot before the battle. But I think in all fairness he must wait until the battle starts to make the hand seals and perform the summoning jutsu. And by the time he finishes that, Pein will have finished him

  127. @Tenrai: Lol, that’s funny. As I recall Orochimaru sleeps too so unless you want all our contestants asleep I say they all wake up and then step straight on the battlefield. Wouldn’t you agree? 😛

    Is the summoning spell faster than raising your hand and saying Bansho Tenin or Shira Tensei? Eh, no. I would bet a dollar Pein could raise his hand and use Shira Tensei or Bansho Tenin before Orochimaru could raise his hands to do the necessary hand seals then lower them again to do the summoning. 😉

    He could prepare all the sacrifices he wants but they’re useless if he can’t even summon them.

    You may have missed my post but I’m not comparing the 4 tails chakra blast power with the power of the Shira Tensei. I’ve said since the beginning both attacks come from different directions so while Orochimaru can defend from one he couldn’t defend from the other with the same method. The powers are debatable (and have been debated) but I really have no interests in that right now so I never approached from that angle.

    Tsunade didn’t get hit by the blast dead center. We’re talking about Orochimaru getting hit by the blast dead center so people being protected by slugs and not in Orochimaru’s dire position hold little merit. He has to pull a Sasuke and summon Manda then crawl into its mouth all before the blast hits him. Unless Orochimaru has genjutsu Manda (who has always been stubborn) would never let Orochimaru use his body like that.

    Lastly Orochimaru can revive himself from serious injury but that’s thanks to great chakra cost. Can’t do that if he has his chakra drained. ^_-

  128. @urbanvolcano87

    Because even if Pein did do damage to Orochimaru, orochimaru would just regenerate.

    Why do you think Itachi sealed Orochimaru in an eternal genjutsu? Maybe it was because he knew it was the only way to permanently get rid of him. What other jutsu have you seen that have been effective against him other than the reaper death sealing technique? O_o

    Comparing Pein to Itachi won’t help in this debate, because Itachi has an advantage over Orochimaru due to his genjutsu, including the eternal genjutsu that he sealed Orochimaru in. Pein hasn’t been seen using any genjutsu at all and Orochimaru seems to be perfectly fine at avoiding or regenerating physical damage.

  129. WHERE’S THE NEW CHAPTER!!! I CANT GO TO SLEEP TIll I READ IT!!

  130. @supertrek89

    Yes super, and Kakashi can just absorb any opponent in the blink of an eye the moment a battle begins, therefore Kakashi is stronger than any other character in Naruto, am I right?

    That includes Sasuke. After all, someone can look at you faster than the time it takes to raise your hands to cast a jutsu, can’t they?

    Please, that kind of instant win logic is the one thing I hate people using in Debates. Yes, Pein can blow away Orochimaru with a Shinra Tensei and yes Orochimaru could just regenerate the damage done. So no, I still don’t see how this instant win situation of yours works. As for getting hit dead center with a super Shinra Tensei, what do you think Orochimaru is gonna do, just stand there and watch as Pein charges up his Shinra Tensei. Have a cup of tea while he’s at it?

    I mean, it’s not like there are any warning signs, like Pein’s other five bodies being disabled, or Pein floating up into the air. Hmmm… oh wait…

    And let’s not forget that Orochimaru can also use summons to defend himself. He could just summon a snake and get away by using a space time reversal summon like Sasuke did. Or doesn’t that count because only Sasuke is allowed to pull a fast one like that?

  131. @Tenrai – but dude, kakashi IS the strongest character in Naruto. Didn’t you know that? >_> lol

  132. @Tenrai: You know what they say, the hand is quicker than the eye. 😉 And nope, the trump card Kakashi had on Gaara (this was a past WRA debate battle btw for all the confused) was Gaara knew nothing of his MS ability. Many other characters do so they would know they could immediately move as soon as the battle starts. I always said it’s hard for Kakashi to focus on a moving target that’s not going in a linear direction towards or away from him. This may be disproved by the missle he vanished though.

    I’m not saying a Shira Tensei on Orochimaru would instant K.O. him. I’m simply saying it’ll stop his summoning. Or a Bansho Tenin can draw him in to have his chakra drained or impaled with a rod to disrupt his chakra, or he could be dragged in to have his soul ripped out. Many possibilities.

    Of course Orochimaru won’t stand there but he couldn’t escape the damage no matter what he did. Pffft, of course only Sasuke can pull that off! He’s Sasuke! >_> Lol, and if he summons himself somewhere else…who would summon him back? That would be Orochimaru forfeiting the match. o_O

  133. @Dark – Welcome back from your brief resignation! Your taking what I said(typed?) to an extreme. I’m sure the snakes in the real world and in Naruto share similar characteristics. I was simply pointing out minor inconsistencies. I said sea snakes eating lobsters is irrelevant. I hold to that.
    @kakashi – too bad Kamui doesn’t work on Madara? I guess he’s the strongest character in Naruto

  134. @Dark – and yes it was nitpicky.. i apologize

  135. @Tenrai – Orochimaru has the skill to not make this match an insta-win, but I agree with super when he lays out all the potential moves and jutsus that Pein can instantly start with. Oro would be on the run from the get-go. And if he’s on the run, can Oro summon his kage-army?

  136. I’m taking a break from el debate. The new chapter is out!

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/1

  137. Dear heaven thank you.. new chapter is out!

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/1

  138. @supertrek89

    No, that would be Orochimaru making a tactical retreat. Preserving one’s self from damage is not forfeiting. It also just means Orochimaru has more time to prepare more resurrections, one of which, for example, who could telleport him back into the field of battle again with a new army.

    Also, how many people know about Kakashi’s MS? Pein didn’t before their battle. Sasuke didn’t. Gaara doesn’t. Most people don’t, actually. So that point is still iffy, otherwise I could just say that Kakashi could have absorbed Sasuke right from the start of their battle and Sasuke in all his power wouldn’t have been able to do anything about it.

    Mmhm.

  139. damn you super haha

  140. Muhahahahaaha! And my link goes to another window. XD

    @Tenrai: Lol, ok. We can debate that later. 😉

  141. @urban – fair enough. Though the lobster eating snake doesn’t really affect my argument much, I just threw it in for the sake of it lol.

  142. Damn them! Madara’s face is so close and yet so far!

  143. tenrai and dark- u talk about double standards… in my opinion the only double standard here is that ur acting as if pein has a very limited chakra reserve and orochimarus is unlimited. I still dont know why orochimaru can regenerate a million times (or as many times as he gets injured) do kawarimis which he himself said were chakra draining, and summon all these unlimited kages. And if there arent limitations on it, why wouldnt he just summon 1st 2nd and 4th from the start in the war. We can’t assume limitations, but u can’t assume that its unlimited. Now, im gonna get u tenrai with something u keep attacking us on. U say that we keep comparing peins fights with others and his accomplishments elsewhere which hold little value in this kind of convo, but then why are u assuming that what kabuto can do with edo tensei is the same as what orochimaru could do?

    and to please you dark, i’ll show u this http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-489/19-20/ where kabuto says that he surpassed the previous users… so i wonder how did he surpass them?? how much more can he do with edo tensei than orochimaru.

    why is it that every time super, urban or i mention a technique that pein can use u two say immediately “no, it will kill him because of his chakra” for all we know, pein had larger chakra reserves than orochimaru.

    So let me get this straight, because i swear with ur guys’ persistence i want to agree with u but i can’t.. these are the conditions then,

    orochimaru can summon anything he wants previous to the fight, orochimaru can regenerate himself as much as need be. pein is allowed to use his 6 bodies (because that is what pein is) but pein can not use gedo mazo because of chakra, and can not use chibaku tensei because he wouldnt feel like doing that. (Who are we placing limitations on?) Does pein start off with post massive shinra tensei chakra levels? or do we assume he had a good nights sleep? cuz i mean if there are lots of handicaps im sure orochimaru can win.

    but in a normal, pein vs. orochimaru fight..fight starts with pein vs. orochimaru, orochimaru can’t win. He wouldnt have time to summon the edo tensei, and if he summoned the coffins, pein would get rid of them, like what sandaime did to the 4th’s coffin… i feel like theres just no progress on this debate because u two don’t want to give in to the facts.

    And im sorry tenrai, idk if we can prove this either way, but i find it hard to believe that 4 tails naruto’s (not even his strongest state) blast is stronger than peins strongest attack. And peins attack did kill a lot of people. Even a small shinra tensei broke ken-san and gamabunta’s bones. Even if the push itself doesnt hurt, the impact against whatever surface u hit resulting from the push will hurt. like jumping out of a plane. that doesnt hurt, but when the earth pulls u in and u slam into the ground… that does hurt. no other attack (Fillers aside) has been able to destroy an entire village… thats just my two cents… or like 50 cents at this point

  144. This just reaffirms my belief that “Uchiha Madara” is not who he says he is. Dammit, who is he though?

    *reviews old post*

  145. naruto is gonna kick the shit outta kisame now. FINALLY we can see how his new powers work!

  146. @Omar – all of what you typed there shows that you haven’t really read what we’ve written. I have said twice now that Pein probably has more chakra than Orochimaru and could probably outlast him in a fight if it came down to stamina. if you won’t read what I type then I won’t bother debating you, so please take the time to read properly before you comment.

    Remember what I said about opinions? Just because Kabuto thinks he’s better at something, doesn’t make it true. I mean, how exactly does he know his Edo Tensei is better than Orochimaru’s, or even the Second Hokage? He may be better at it, but you can’t say for certain based solely on Kabuto’s word alone.

    With Chibaku Tensei, I have said that he wouldn’t use it (not that he is not allowed to), and I also provided a counter to that technique in the form of Danzo’s Izanagi. So there is no limitation there.

    In a normal Pein vs Orochimaru fight (if they weren’t expecting to fight), there is just Deva Path (his main body) vs Orochimaru, because Pein usually keeps his bodies in what look like cryosleep containers all the way in Amegakure. For him to bring all his bodies out so far from home means he’s expecting a fight in which they will all be needed. That to me would count as preparation, which makes it silly to think that Orochimaru couldn’t prepare in a similar manner by bringing in a handful of reanimated bodies via Edo Tensei.

    And for the record, using the Six Paths of Pain is a jutsu in itself. A body reanimation jutsu. To say that it isn’t is silly. They aren’t a part of him, they are dead bodies whom Nagato has prepared in advance and used as conduits for his abilities. Prepared being the key word. Is it fair that Nagato is allowed to prepare a new animal path body before invading Konoha, but Orochimaru is not allowed to prepare his bodies before facing of against pein? I don’t think so.

    And about your Shinra Tensei vs Menacing Ball argument. You just admitted that the blast itself is not what is the most damaging part of the attack, it’s the objects they are propelled into. In Naruto’s case, it is the blast itself that is most damaging. By your own admission, Shinra Tensei is not a destructive technique and it relies on the environment to cause damage. The menacing ball does not, thus is more destructive. You kind of countered yourself there.

  147. @omar101990

    When did I ever say that Pein had low chakra reserves? O_o

    I said that Chibiki Tensei uses a lot of chakra. We have seen that this is true because Nagato was severely weakened from using it, so much so that he was coughing up blood and practically shaking. This is something we have actually seen in the manga and is factual, I didn’t just state it out of some assumption.

    Yet, we have not seen Orochimaru take any strain from Using Edo Tensei, so it would be an assumption to say that using it would hinder Orochimaru. That is all I based my argument on. I never once said anything about who had more chakra.

    As for no other attack being powerful enough to destroy a village. What about Deidara’s self detonation? Or what about this…

    Notice how small the Hokage mountain is next to Naruto’s chakra blast? Are you telling me that surviving a direct hit from something akin to that isn’t proof enough that Orochimaru could defend himself against Shinra Tensei? I also mentioned using a summon to escape like Sasuke did, just for the sake of giving more options in the unlikely case that a defense was not possible.

    I am using facts for my debate and also opinions as well, just like anyone else. Would you rather I just said Pein is stronger, like 90% of the people on WRA and simply not debate at all. I mean, the only reason there is a debate is because Darks and I decided to have some fun and put up a fight. It is a bit unfair for you to try and make me feel like I shouldn’t bother trying.

    But if you want some facts, here are some…

    Fact 1: We don’t actually know who is stronger between Orochimaru and Pein because the manga has never specifically stated that one is stronger than the other. Anyone who says Pein is stronger is doing so by their own opinion until proven otherwise. I mean, let’s face it. Before today’s chapter, most people would have said Kisame would beat Gai and yet here we have Gai, a jounin, beating an S-class shinobi who even defeated Bee. People have an obscured perception of power and they base it on who beat who, without actually considering each battles own unique circumstances or nuances.

    Fact2: We don’t know if Shinra Tensei is more powerful than Naruto’s chakra blast, it is just in my opinion that getting hit by either would have similar results to the victim, if not worse results from a direct hit from a chakra blast. Anyone who disagrees is also doing so via their own opinion. Until the manga says it is a fact that shinra Tensei is stronger in terms of actual direct damage relative to surface area, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

    Fact3: We have seen Orochimaru regenerate just about all damage done to him in every single battle he has been in. This isn’t just an assumption, it is in the manga. If you want to dispute it, then please show me evidence that proves otherwise. If I am not allowed to counter your points with valid points of my own, then what is the point of debating?

    Well, I guess that is it for now. Please understand that I enjoy debating, but I am also human. I am not always right and some of my points are wrong or stupid. If I notice it, I will concede and move onto other points. That doesn’t mean I should stop debating, it just means I must try a new approach, that’s all. If you think you are right, then by all means, debate me and have fun. Don’t take it personally.

  148. @Chapter

    Awwww… he was just about to see Madara’s face. T___T

    It was a really good chapter, but it really does make me think now about Tobi’s real identity. no matter how close we come to seeing his face, it is always hidden from us, always secretive.

    I still think that the only reason Kishi would have to hide his face is because he isn’t the real Madara, or he is but in a different body.

    Now, I wonder if we will see Naruto vs Kisame, or if Kisame is just too weak to put up a real fight. I am really hoping for the former.

  149. Great new chapter.

    Damn you Kisame!!! We almost saw Tobi’s face!

    About Madara’s identity: since it’s confirmed he manipulated Yagura with his sharingan, he must have Shisui’s eye tecnique!

    By the way, I think that Gai would have defeated Kisame even if he had fused with Samehada. Afternoon Tiger can’t be absorbed so it would have ripped them apart and almost killed them both.

    @Tenrai: I think Madara will teleport to Kisame’s location and save him before he dies. If not, he will probably suicide because I don’t see Naruto or anyone else killing him…

    Akatsuki members always have flashbacks before they die, so I think he’s done for… 😛

  150. @Dragon

    True, I also think he is done for. I just hope Naruto defeats him. I don’t think Naruto will kill him, so suicide may be just what happens, but I do want to see Naruto fight him a bit so we can at least get an idea of his new power.

    I don’t think Madara knows where he is though, otherwise he wouldn’t need to try and send information via a scroll. He is on his own, by the looks of it.

  151. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/1 new chapter

  152. This is a real satisfying moment, I’m laughing at all the people that not long ago were sentencing Gai for the death bed.

    C’mon this was the most anticipated fight ever and everyone,apart from a very few, were actually thinking Gai was gonna lose.

    Gai is the best and against a tech that is said to give u kage level power not even a wanna be self proclaimed bijuu level fish dude can withstand.

    Kisame is done, he’s gonna try a last ditch effort next time and it’s probably gonna be pretty cool but ultimately he’s out of it and 4 good this time.

  153. What? People thought Gai was gonna lose!? WRA, you sicken me. I was more worried that Kisame was gonna lose too easily and die. So much wasted potential.

  154. oh and by the way, reading through all of your guys posts took a toll on my eyes I actually feel like I have a Byakugan now.

    Congrats on a great and healthy debate, feels like the good old days, actually better.

  155. @ Dark, exactly my point :))

  156. Again this battle was not might against might. This is like Naruto vs Pein wherein your Intel on your enemy is crucial. im not taking away Gai’s victory on this but it just so happened that Kisame was not aware of this kind of attack.

    Who could be this Uchiha Madara that the chunin was really surprised to see? Hmmm… Kisame will die next chapter but i think we will not succeed in killing the secret with him. he may leave a little clue on the true personality of Uchiha Madara. Father of Sasuke, dont you think? hahaha

  157. @super – Actually, he could kinda escape the damage. Let’s take Banshou Tenin as the example. You’ve given three examples of what could happen if Oro gets caught. Chakra drain, soul removal, and chakra disruption. This is of course assuming that Orochimaru doesnt use a substitution jutsu or a bunshin jutsu.The problem with all three of these techniques you mentioned is that they are all close range moves. And you forget that Orochimaru has a weapon that is effective at not only close range, but medium to long range as well.

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Kusanagi_(Orochimaru)

    The Kusanagi. Able to extend to long distances, can even be levitated and shot towards a target from a distance. If he drops it, it can transform into a snake and return to him. If pein attempts to bring him closer, he can shoot the blade out his mouth and thrust it at a distance towards Pein. Pein has to dodge, and in doing so he releases his hold on Orochimaru.

    There are four hand signs required to do Edo Tensei, followed by a hand clap. After that, they just pop out of the ground like gophers. In the anime, it took him less than a second to perform the necessary hand signs with the hand clap to summon the Kages. Conveniently, the sword of kusanagi can be wielded by the snake that protrudes from his mouth, leaving his hands free and himself protected. If Pein uses Banshou Tenin, then he has a five second recharge time. And unlike the Third Hokage who knew how to suppress a summon, the Paths of Pein either don’t know how to do that or are unable to. And I can confidently say that because it is stated in the manga that the Pein bodies specialized in one type of ninjutsu each, and unfortunately, each of Peins abilities have been accounted for.

    Now if Orochimaru is Shinra Tensei’d away, it’s actually a good thing because because the more distance between him and the Paths, the more time he has to use Edo Tensei.

    Orochimaru getting his summons out and onto the playing field is now probable, if not definite, and we’ve already discussed the amount of mayhem he can cause with them.

  158. THAT CHAPTER WAS AWWWWWWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME! Kisame’s a REAL ninja! He got cheated >_>. Can’t wait to see what he does next chapter….y’know, before he dies >_>

  159. Damn Dark if not for the points u and tenrai made you 100% have my vote on the commitment you showed in this debate.

    I’m actually a little disappointed you guys only chose the Edo Tensei as the foundation for Orochimaru’s whole attack strategy.
    It’s, of course, a great tech that could shift the tides of any fight to the one casting it in his favor.
    But like most said it takes time and preparation for it to be effective , where’s on the battle field it all comes down to split second decisions. Oro is very good at fighting because he has great ninjutsu to offer and if I’m not mistaken he can do genjutsu too, unlike some said, I’ll go check that out later.

    The point i’m trying to make is that Oro can be a match to pain even without the use of edo tensei in my mind.
    Not to underestimate Pain, who we all know kicks even Chuck Norris’s ass, but Orochimaru was a ninja none could stop easy apart from Itachi who actually made little work with him.

    But that, like most of what happened in Naruto was some time in the past, time that passed more and more in Oro’s favor.
    Maybe when he tried to take itachi’s eyes he couldn’t use edo tensei, the facts are, we don’t know.
    But from what Orochimaru showed against 4 tail Naruto I can say, that apart from the Chakra blast that was so debated, Oro actually was quite calm on the battle field and prepared for what ever Naruto had for him.

    When you look at Deva Path, at the site of 4-6 tails Naruto the dude went for the hills without a moment’s thought.
    It’s that cool and collected mind of Orochimau’s has and the experience he has both in fighting and in knowing people and there emotions that makes him a formidable opponent.

    My guess is that this fight is gonna somehow drag itself out, both parties coming to the field with the best they have, but ultimately the one with the bigger chakra reserve is gonna see it to the end, and that is without a doubt Pain.

    Not to say that this is definite and Oro looses hands down in the long run, but putting what all you guys brought to the table and what I myself read in the manga across the years shows that this is very probable outcome.

  160. Oh and this is something that bothered me a lot.

    What’s this foolishness saying that akatsuki members don’t know about the others’s skills and powers.
    This guys have been a organization for a long time, in all this time they went on missions and were pared up differently across the years ( Oro and Sasori; Oro and itachi; deidara and Sasori; deidara and tobi; kakuzu and hidan) and so on, my point is this guys saw each other in action a whole shit load of times and I bet they had pretty good understanding of the other member’s missions and fights.

    So to say that in all that time the were together as Akatsuki this guys didn’t know about themselves is just stupid.
    Sure everyone could have kept a little something hidden away from the rest but the essential tech and powers were right in front of there eyes.
    So stop saying things like this because it’s illogical to think that narrow minded.

  161. I go away for a couple of hours and this many comments. I feel like giving up on this debate cuz i have to read this much. 😦

    Kisu’s final thoughts: Edo tensei takes time. time Oro doesn’t have against Pain.

    Summons: Pain beats Oro by a landslide there

    Regeneration: I’d like to see Oro regenerate losing his soul

  162. @Eugen

    I agree with you about Orochimaru’s power, actually. He managed to take on a four-tailed Naruto even despite his shortcomings from being close to needing a new body “Which severely weakens him.” He also did it without Edo Tensei, which, as you said, suggests that there is more to his power than just that one technique. Edo Tensei is just arguably his strongest technique, so it is the icing on the cake with regards to our debating power in support of Orochimaru.

    However, I don’t agree with you on the “More chakra” part. There is no conclusive evidence to suggest either way who has more chakra between Orochimaru and Pein. For all we know, the powers of the white snake give Orochimaru Bijuu level chakra, but we can’t really tell based on what we have seen. All I know is he never seems to have a problem with chakra, so we can’t assume it is lower than Pein’s own pool. Different techniques also have a different level of drain, so we can’t even accurately compare them in regards to the techniques they use either.

    I am not sure how you could say that Pein’s is higher “without a doubt”, because there are a lot of doubts, especially when we consider that there isn’t enough information, if any at all, to support that claim.

  163. @Kisu

    My final thoughts on Kisu’s final thoughts.

    1: Orochimaru has as much time as he can create for himself, which is actually quite simple considering how easily Pein is fooled. If Naruto can trick him with the simplist diversions, like smoke bombs and a henge, I doubt Orochimaru will struggle to create a diversion to buy enough time to do anything really.

    2: without any reasons as to why Pein’s summons beat Orochimaru’s, that is a meek point at best. Even if they are a bit better, that is hardly a deciding factor in battle.

    3: I’d like to see human path get close enough to touch Orochimaru and steal his soul.

  164. @Tenrai and Dark – I certainly don’t mind you guys siding with Oro, we wouldn’t have a debate otherwise. So I don’t want you to feel like any of us think you should just throw in the towel and give it to Pein… aside from the fact Pein would destroy Oro >_> haha anyhow, this is still a debate, and the point is to try and convince the other side or a neutral third party. Typically the neutral third party format actually comes out with a winner, but our format with two sides just facing off typically doesn’t (Congress anyone?). But who cares? Its still fun.

    @Tenrai Fact 1 – agreed that we can’t know what Kishi would do if Pein and Oro were to actually fight in the manga. And agreed that upsets and surprises do occur in the manga. Agreed that nuances and circumstances of each battle are vitally important. (Kisame’s ace was chakra absorption, but he ended up fighting someone who doesn’t use chakra). But we have to base our foundations off of previous perceptions and examples from the manga. Who beat who counts. Ie. Tenten hasn’t beaten anyone in the manga.. (except herself I guess). Therefore we make an assumption or perception that she wouldn’t beat Pein, who has beaten everyone he faced besides Naruto. Sure the battle would have its own nuances, and its great to bring them to light, but even so Tenten probably loses.

    @Dark – Agreed the Kusanagi could help Oro escape a Bansho Tenin, but let’s not sell Pein short here. I’m sure he could counter a flying sword (maybe he sacrifices a body) while potentially keeping a hold on Oro. Remember that the 6 bodies share one mind and act as one. I don’t think the Kusanagi ensures Oro the ability to escape, let along perform a summoning.

  165. @Urban – you forget, it doesn’t need to be flying. He can extend it as well as retract it, granting repeated strikes with the Kusanagi. And because of it’s length and the fact that by pulling Orochimaru forward you’re building his forward thrusting momentum (think thrusting a spear from a chariot or from horseback), the blade can go straight through the sacrificed body and continue to drive into Deva Path. Again, Pein needs to dodge.

  166. @Dark – Still the forward thrusting momentum all depends on the distance at which the Kusanagi starts. Operating under the assumption that velocity and thus force will increase with distance. Oro needs to be at significant distance for his shooting sword to be able to go completely through the sacrifice body. Then, when the sword gets stuck in the sacrifice body, the body grabs hold of it and removes Oro’s ability to retract it and strike again. This is also operating under the assumption that Deva Path side-stepping the sword breaks his concentration enough to cause him to release his technique. I’m willing to allow that since Oro can control the flight of the Kusanagi, but I just wanted to point it out anyway 🙂

  167. Remember, Pein’s reactions are extremely fast. Remember when we all thought Kakashi was gonna stuff a raikiri into Deva Path, only for LaserHead to suddenly get in the way? Pein has used sacrificial moves effectively before.

  168. “If Naruto can trick him with the simplist diversions, like smoke bombs and a henge, I doubt Orochimaru will struggle to create a diversion to buy enough time to do anything really.”

    Let’s see, he couldn’t use Shinra Tensei back then to push away the smoke, and the henge only worked because Pain had been fighting for so long. And have you forgotten that the Rinnegan can also see chakra? Also, if he’s doing a diversion, how could he be using that Edo Tensei summoning at the same time? Oro’s abilities are being grossly exaggerated by you and Darks.

    “without any reasons as to why Pein’s summons beat Orochimaru’s, that is a meek point at best. Even if they are a bit better, that is hardly a deciding factor in battle.”

    I actually thought the reasons were as clear as day. Pain can bomb the summonings Oro might do with his giant bird, his invisible chameleon can attack without being detected, his crustacean has water jutsus, his Panda can survive a Sage Mode attack, his giant ram and giant rhino have brute force and to top it all off, his multi-headed dog cant be killed and only gets stronger the more its injured.

    “I’d like to see human path get close enough to touch Orochimaru and steal his soul.”

    That really isn’t hard to do. You say Oro can create a diversion, to do that he’d actually have to go into combat. Then he’d have to be fighting all 6 bodies while they’re actively trying to kill him. If a wild beast like Naruto’s four tailed form can hit him, then a ninja that’s more powerful and smarter than a beast can easily do so.

    Orochimaru hasn’t won most of the fights we’ve seen him in.

    Oro, J-man and Tsunade vs Hanzo = Oro loses
    Oro vs ITachi = Oro loses in an instant and loses his arm
    Oro vs genins = Oro won and escaped
    Oro vs Anko = Oro escaped
    Oro vs Sarutobi = Oro barely wins with heavy losses
    Oro w/ Otogakure and Sunagakure vs Konoha = Oro loses
    Oro vs Tsunade and Jiraiya = Oro lost handily
    Oro vs Four Tails = Oro escapes
    Oro vs Sasuke = Oro lost
    Oro vs Itachi = Oro loses and dies

    Now lets check Pain’s sheet shall we?

    Pain w/ no ninja experience vs 2 Konoha nin = Pain wins
    Pain w/ no ninja experience vs Iwa-nin that tried to kill Yahiko = Pain wins
    Pain vs Hanzo = Pain wins
    Pain vs Jiraiya = a dominating win for Pain
    Pain vs Kakashi = Pain wins
    Pain vs Konoha and its entire military = Pain wins with no casualties
    A weakened Pain vs Naruto w/ Konoha and Frogs’ assistance = Six Paths lose

    Looks like Pain has a better resumé to me. Let’s not forget Oro used to take orders from Pain as well.

  169. This chapter here settles my feeling that Kisame is stand up. I mean whatever happens, he kills a few more, lasts but gets killed, or even if he get owned this guy is EPIC AWESOME. No wonder he was paired with Itachi, both are/were awesome. The way he looked after him, it was all in his blood the whole time. I think my new fav character is KISAME of the Mist!! And whats up with “Madara” never showing his guise? Is it him!?, but even Itachi claims its him so…, Guy was super but i think that now he has his hands full (hopefully). Go Kisamw hip hip hurray x2

  170. @Darks, about the iron sand. If you throw a block of ice at me, and I melt it beofre it reaches, that momentum is dead, It turns to water and falls. The only thing giving the Iron sand its shape is the chakra of the Third Kazekage. Take away the chakra from the giant chuck of Iron sand he throws at u, and it will turn into sand before it even hits. You need mass to have momentum, take away the chakra, the mass goes away as well since nothing is holding the structure together. I hate getting all physicsy

  171. First of all- Tenrai- i never said that u were entitled to ur own opinion. In fact, when concerning the blasts i said there was no way for either of us to prove anything so there.

    Dark- I can’t believe ur still arguing that deva pain is the only pein that would come to battle when we have seen that when he prepares for a fight he uses all six pains (the konoha invasion) and eventually against jiraiya. Now as for summons being stronger, lets look at the facts. Orochimaru has snakes, the strongest of which would be manda (who is dead) but even if we keep manda alive for this fight, manda was about equally matched with gamabunta. Gamabunta and ken-san got owned by the dogs, bird and rhino later on, plus the chameleon (how would orochimaru beat an invisible pein).

    U can’t use real world logic here because although we know snakes are fast, we have no idea how fast a winged-multi headed dog, or weird ass bird are. But we know pein is supposedly taking all of these techniques to their strongest point, because the rinnegan has the power to allow its user to use any technique. Why wouldnt he use the strongest. After all the third databook by kishi says that Nagato’s hobby is practicing ninjutsu, that means he knows ninjutsu, and can do it, but chooses not to because the other techniques are stronger. I mean why would he do “A thousand years of pain” and kawarimi, when he has naraka path and shinra tensei to do damage and regenerate. If anything Naraka path is where its at for regeneration because he has no limit that we’ve seen.

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Orochimaru, now if you’d all join me at going to the Stats, which btw, are part of Kishis third databook (so canon material) orochimaru has a 3.5, so not bijuu level. The sad part to that is that Pein’s stats havent been revealed, so again we’re at a moot point.

    i’m still convinced that nagato could kill the two or three summons before orochimaru puts the paper in them. Shinra tensei and banshou tenin mess up ur balance and makes it really difficult to do anything as seen by kakashi.

    In terms of the sword of kusanagi, doesnt laser beam path have missiles? In my book missiles trump swords, just the way history goes.

    And lastly dark, u say that i can’t pay attention to the opinions of characters in a manga. but thats false. Thats how kishi presents information to the reader rather than saying “oh pein is the strongest, his power level is over 9000”. so when orochimaru calls pein “god pein” and konan says hes unbeaten, and when fukusaku says that he can’t be beat by some1 who doesnt know his secrets. That means that hes very strong. Fukusaku knew orochimaru, and im sure he didnt mean, no1 other than orochimaru can beat him. My point is that although opinions can b misleading, when several characters in a manga converge on the idea that some1 is ultrapowerful, he’s probably ultrapowerful. If kakashi says, this guy is incredibly strong, we assume that hes strong and that tenten can’t appear out of nowhere and kill the person.
    Also guys, when would the fight be considered over? when the 6 peins are dead, or when 6peins + nagato are dead, cuz finding nagato wouldnt be easy and he could prepare another army, while orochimaru would probably have some harsh wounds.

    In terms of regeneration, Body Shedding Technique- Used after sustaining massive injury, or simply to escape from a seemingly inescapable attack, this technique allows the user to regurgitate a new body from their mouth, new clothes, complete with any lost limbs and all wounds healed, much like a snake sheds its skin. This technique requires a large amount of chakra, as Sasuke’s reservoir was drained greatly when he escaped Amaterasu.[1] Now sasuke and orochimaru both have a 3.5 in stamina so i doubt orochimaru could use it several times.

    Now in terms of chibaku tensei taking up lots of chakra, doesnt konan explicitly tell pein not to use it because he had ALREADY used up a great deal of chakra?

    Wasnt it that he had already wasted a shit ton with shinra tensei’s and summons and all that stuff that he started bleeding after using chibaku tensei.

    Sorry guys my ideas were all over the place cuz i kept thinking of something else. i keep saying, now lastly lol… alright guys… go for it

  172. I prompt a Aizen vs Pain debate.

  173. @maidencrow, RIGHT ON! KISAME ROCKS MY SOCKS!

  174. and sorry for repeating urban’s ideas, they were posted while i was typing

  175. @kisuzachi: In your earlier post where you gave Orochimaru and Pain’s resumes. It’s okay to be totally biased to one character (I agree that Pain would dominate Orochimaru too), but at least have everything balanced out and totally true on the character you don’t favor as well.

    You said Pain was weakened against Naruto. True, but you also don’t mention Orochimaru wasn’t weakened against Tsunade & Jiraiya, as well as Sasuke later on. You also say Orochimaru escaped when he fought Kyuubi Naruto. Yeah he couldn’t beat it, but neither could Pain. Also, in the case of Pain vs Jiraiya, you can’t just state that Pain won without stating that Jiraiya not only injured one Path, but killed another. That, and Pain also said that if he had brought all Pains out at once, in lieu of surprising Jiraiya one by one, he [Pain] would’ve lost. You should’ve put “Pain barely wins with heavy losses”, just like you did with Oro vs the 3rd. It might not’ve been that heavy a loss for Pain though, since he just replaced them.

    But still, what I’m saying is, if you’re biased, try not to show it, even if the winner is obvious.

  176. @kantokage: I think it’s safe to say Aizen wins. I mean, Aizen right now is just something else. Bleach characters and Naruto characters can’t usually be compared anyway. Naruto is more … dare I say, realistic, than Bleach. Could you imagine Pain beating Aizen somehow ? If you can, please share it, I wanna see it too !

  177. @Kanton, I disagree, that’s what Aizen wants us to do

  178. “rue, but you also don’t mention Orochimaru wasn’t weakened against Tsunade & Jiraiya, as well as Sasuke later on.”

    Jiraiya was still drugged and couldn’t do shit, and Tsunade was weakened from fighting Kabuto. And everyone knows Oro was almost dead when Sasuke “beat” him, but some people are under the impression that Naruto beat Pain with no outside contributing factors. I just thought it wasn’t necessary to say Oro was slmost dead because Sasugay just wasn’t any good back then

  179. @kisuzachi

    That win lose comparison of yours was hardly accurate or reasonable and I think you know it. Most of thise retreats on Orochimaru’s side had nothing to do with him losing, just him playing around with his foes.

    He could have killed the genin, Anko, etc and whe he fought Tsunade and Jiraiya, he wasn’t able to use a single one of his jutsu. Of course, you conveniently ignore those factors for a very simple and effortless attempt at making Pein look better. You also like to use a lot of examples where Oro is either on his deathbed, or where he isn’t near his full strength, which is also a bit lopsided.

    Also, as for Orochimaru’s battle with the Third, how does that factor into the debate at all? If Sarutobi was allive when Pein attacked, who knows, maybe he would have forced Pein to retreat as well. Comparing Pein’s attack on Konoha in the future vs Orochimaru’s attack on Konoha under completely different circumstances, is pointless and irrelevant.

    The difference with Orochimaru’s attack is he actually met heavy resistance. Pein didn’t even have to fight with Tsunade during his envasion, the kage at the time. The most he had to go up against was jounin and chunin, maybe a few genin, one of whome actually defeated one of his boides. *Laughs thinking about how Konahamaru pwned Pein.*

    Yeah, you forgot that in your comparison. Seriously, can you even compare those two situations?

    In any case, don’t forget that Oro also had a lot of hubris affecting his battle with the third. He wanted to inflict as much pain as possible on Hirusen by making him fight his predecessors. Summoning anyone else into that battle or just killing him quickly would have dampened the effect. If you recall, Orochimaru hardly got involved in the battle directly at all and only really defended himself when The Third attacked him directly. Otherwise, if he was really serious about the battle, I think it would have been over quicker as well and with less incidents that would have caused his own eventual retreat.

    I do, however, also recall Pein being beaten by a certain 16-year old with far less experience than Orochimaru though. Funny thing is, that was in large part to many of Pein’s own mistakes because of his pride.

    Now to address your counters to my previous points.

    Your point about distractions, you can’t just blow it off as Pein battling for too long. That is a lazy excuse.

    Your points about the summons, Jiraiya seemed to handle them well enough on his own, just with Gamaken at his side. You make them out to be a lot more powerful than they really are.

    That wild beast, Naruto, also sent Pein’s most powerful body running, last I recalled. Funny how Orochimaru kept his cool in a similar situation and stood his ground, even though he was near his limit with the body he was using at the time and was severely weakened.

    As for Orochimaru taking orders from Pein, that has nothing to do with power. After all, madara was the one who gave all the orders to Pein, but does that instantly mean he was more powerful than Pein? Hmmm… I bet you would say others in that case.

    @omar10199

    Regarding your comment about orochimaru’s regeneration, yes it did drain a lot of Sasuke’s chakra, key word being “Sasuke”. Show me one point in the manga where we see Orochimaru suffering the same side effects simply from shedding his body. It could be a chakra difference between the two characters, or simply Orochimaru’s body being more adapted for the technique, but there are two many factors involved to say that it would affect Orochimaru in the same manner that it would affect Sasuke.

    Anyway, for now, I am taking a braek from this debate, so i won’t answer any more posts tonight. Tomorrow is another day and i will gladly continue once more, provided there is a response that is worth debating against, where the same points don’t just come up over and over again.

  180. btw, with kabuto, is anyone excited about what nagato can do, like without the peins… i’ve always been curious how strong nagato by himself was. also, does anyone not like the idea of edo tensei- i feel its like dbz all over again with pple dying and then being revived… even if its as puppets. cuz from what i know kabuto will keep bringin more and more pple to the fight as they die, or even reviving nagato again or something… idk, im not a big fan. Also if u think about it, sasuke and naruto get helped out so much… thats why i prefer one piece… cuz in one piece luffy can get outmatched and loses. In naruto, if naruto is outmatched, he’ll get all the intelligence in the world and win no matter who his opponent is. Same with sasuke, he happened to fight his brother that wanted to lose, he fought against danzo while having a sensor type guide him through all of the attacks, ok… sasuke does happen to lose a couple of times in a row, but rather than earn any new powers, hes given the mangekyou and given the ems now. Oh yea, and same with sakura, she happened to beat sasori because she had a genius puppeteer next to her. Though its essential to the story line, i hate that all of the akatsuki are dead cuz they all lost due to the circumstance except for hidan and kakuzu (damnit kakuzu whyd u have to die!!) who i feel died fairly. but if u think about it, deidara, died cuz sasuke had affinity to lightning which was opposite of deidara, sasori died cuz of chiyo, itachi died cuz he cared for sasuke, kisame died cuz his sword randomly fell in love with some1 else, pein died cuz he fought an entire village at the same time and then realized that naruto was his successor (we still dont know if nagato and konan couldve killed naruto at that meeting point, though i think he couldve). it just pisses me off cuz they were such cool characters….

    *runs away b4 the shinobi find out i’m a pirate*

  181. saying that orochimaru almost beat jiraiya and tsunade is dumb… jiraiya didnt even go into sage mode.

    4 tails naruto never faced pein, so that argument is a joke. orochimaru had his hands full with 4 tailed naruto, imagine 6 or 8 tails, i doubt hed be calm cool and collected…

  182. @kisu It seems that you’ve forgotten that Jiraiya took out three of Pain bodies.

  183. @Tenrai – I agree with omar on the 4 tails vs. 6 tails thing. Pein never faced 4 tails and Oro never faced 6 tails. We don’t know if Oro would have been able to handle the power difference. Also, Pein was hardly running away, he was making an, err.. “tactical retreat” if you will, so he could get close enough to his real body to use Chibaku Tensei. I don’t remember Pein panicking at that point, so making it sound like he was a coward against kyuubi Naruto is false. I would say both Pein and Oro were calm and collected against kyuubi Naruto. The difference being that Oro was on the defensive against a 4 tails Naruto, while Pein effectively beat a 6 tails Naruto with Chibaku Tensei, since it was the 8 tails that broke out of the technique.

  184. “The difference with Orochimaru’s attack is he actually met heavy resistance.”

    U killed urself there old buddy. Orochimaru had two armies to back him up and keep the pressure of the entire village off of him, Pain was alone. He took on the entire village and came out on top. He met resistance from the Hokage as well, just in a different way. Pain severely injures a team of ninjas, the Hokage resuscitates them, and then Pain has to do what he did again.

    “He could have killed the genin, Anko, etc and whe he fought Tsunade and Jiraiya, he wasn’t able to use a single one of his jutsu. Of course, you conveniently…. Oro is either on his deathbed, or where he isn’t near his full strength, which is also a bit lopsided.”

    Hmm. Jiraiya couldn’t do anything and Tsunade just had finished getting her ass kicked up and down by Kabuto. Also, against the 4 tails (, Hanzo), and Itachi twice, Oro was at full power, but he lost all those fights didn’t he? We only saw Pain at full power in 1 fight, against Jiraiya and he won in mere moments (full power is all 6 bodies). Well we saw him in another fight if u count the anime, against a Jinchuriki, same result.

    “Also, as for Orochimaru’s battle with the Third, how does that factor into the debate at all?”

    It shows that he did indeed struggle against an opponent weaker than the ones Pain dominated.

    “maybe a few genin, one of whome actually defeated one of his boides. *Laughs thinking about how Konahamaru pwned Pein.*”

    You forget, that body took out many Jonin and Chunin even though it clearly wasn’t meant for combat. I’d say anyone could be surprised by a Genin busting out a Rasengan.

    “I do, however, also recall Pein being beaten by a certain 16-year old with far less experience…..of Pein’s own mistakes because of his pride.”

    As far as his fight with Naruto went, I don’t recall him making any mistakes. He couldn’t fight at full power and he couldn’t kill Naruto. Hinata attacked him, he defended himself. Nope, I don’t see any mistakes there.

    “Your point about distractions, you can’t just blow it off as Pein battling for too long. That is a lazy excuse. ”

    Lol, but that’s exactly what happened. He was so fatigued he didn’t even realize he could see the chakra in the boulders Naruto had transformed his clones into.

    “Your points about the summons, Jiraiya seemed to handle them well enough on his own, just with Gamaken at his side. You make them out to be a lot more powerful than they really are.”

    IF I recall, Gamaken only had to deal with the dog. And the dog was seriously killing him. Only after Jiraiya went to Sage Mode did the summons mean nothing. In fact, before Sage Mode, Jiraiya was using Amegakure’s structure to his advantage while RUNNING AWAY from the summons. If the strongest Sanin (statistically speaking) was running away from a summon, I think that means these summons were stronger than the average ones. Remember Tsunade was the one that defeated Manda.

    “That wild beast, Naruto, also sent Pein’s most powerful body running, last I recalled. Funny how Orochimaru kept his cool in a similar situation and stood his ground, even though he was near his limit with the body he was using at the time and was severely weakened.”

    Hmm. Oro stood against a 4 tails Naruto. Pain kept his cool and made a TACTICAL retreat, so he could be in a better position to win (namely, nearer to the source of his chakra). And then when the 8 tails broke out of his strongest jutsu, he didn’t panic or scream or run, he kept his cool and was just going to make a bigger one

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-440/02/

    “As for Orochimaru taking orders from Pein, that has nothing to do with power.”

    When it comes to characters like Itachi, Kakuzu or Sasori, power really has nothing to do with it. Orochimaru is prideful, he wouldn’t take orders from someone if he thought he was stronger or better than that person. He thought he was better than Konoha and its people, so he didn’t stay there. But this is a matter of opinion.

    “Regarding your comment about orochimaru’s regeneration, yes it did drain a lot of Sasuke’s chakra, key……that it would affect Sasuke.”

    Sasugay had used up huge amounts of chakra before he used this jutsu. So the point Omar was making is that this is not a spammable jutsu.

  185. “@kisu It seems that you’ve forgotten that Jiraiya took out three of Pain bodies.”

    They were revived, so it really didn’t make sense to mention that.

  186. @the new chapter – so many characters, Tobi included, have stated or come to the conclusion that Tobi really is Uchiha Madara. Also, the Kyuubi recognized him when he took control from Kushina during Naruto’s birth, and then states to Sasuke that he knows Uchiha Madara during Team 7’s original reunion (minus Kakashi). This all points to Tobi being Uchiha Madara. It would be weird for Kishi to build all these clues pointing to Tobi being Madara to be just a complete misdirection and have it randomly be someone else. That’s not good storytelling. I, for one, won’t appreciate it if Kishi has me convinced Tobi’s Madara and then suddenly go “Gotcha! Tobi is actually Chuck Norris!” That’d suck!

    So why then all the secrecy around Tobi’s face? Well, I think it’s because Tobi IS Madara, but something very, very fundamental to the story has changed about him since he fought with the First Hokage. Something Kishi has yet to reveal to us at all.

    Just some thoughts.

  187. As villain, you have to admit, Madara looks pretty unimpressive aesthetically. Kisame, Sasori, Oro, Pain, Itachi and Kakuzu look more like final villain material. I expect a transformation is coming for Tobi. Every manga at least makes the final villain transforms once

  188. @Kisu – right, and the reason for Madara’s (a once powerful ninja) eventual transformation stems from the need to fix whatever changed about him, the reason he’s hiding his face.. maybe he’s vulnerable right now… somehow

  189. Orochimaru probably joined Akatsuki as a matter of convenience

  190. “Pein hasn’t been seen using any genjutsu at all”

    I disagree.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-418/13/

  191. @kisu: “please us caution, he MAY have set genjutsu traps as well” may being the key word obviously…

  192. “http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/242483-6_tails_blast_2_super.jpg

    Notice how small the Hokage mountain is next to Naruto’s chakra blast? Are you telling me that surviving a direct hit from something akin to that isn’t proof enough that Orochimaru could defend himself against Shinra Tensei? ”

    That was the six tails’ blast. The 4 tails blast is MUCH MUCH smaller. There you go overpowering Orochimaru again *sigh

  193. @supafreak, they said it was Pains technique that kept Inoichi from reading his mind otherwise. Genjutsu.

  194. So how many people tried putting their hands together like Gai when they got a glace at that first page of the last chapter? …………*sheepishly raising my hand*

  195. Orochimaru couldn’t beat Naruto, Orochimaru couldn’t beat Sarutobi, Orochimaru couldn’t beat Itachi, Orochimaru couldn’t beat Sasori or Deidara… But he can beat Pain. xD

    Come on this is getting ridiculous. Everybody knows, in a strait up fight with Pain. Orochimaru would get his ass kicked. Orochimaru is barely at Jiraiya’s level.
    Edo Tensei can’t be done DURING the fight. And if he uses it BEFORE the fight he won’t know what he’s up against. Summoning Jiraiya could help but seeing as how Naruto knew everything Pain could do and still effectively ‘lost’. I still say Jiraiya knowing what Pain can do and that Nagato isn’t among them is useful for Trivial Pursuit only.
    The Third Kazekage’s Iron Sand wasn’t effective against a cry girl and a granny so turning it into a ‘perfect defense’ makes me shit my pants from laughter.
    And a resurrected Danzou can’t use Izanagi. He used the sharingans while he was alive. They are closed, FOREVER. There’s no way to open them up again. The best Danzou could do is try and control one of the Pains with Shisui’s eye. But, seeing as how there are 6 pains, that wouldn’t help much. The other Bodies can cancel the genjutsu. As for Danzou’s summon, its purpose was to enhance Danzou’s wind element attack to create an opening. Ninjutsu are ineffective against Pain, no matter how powerful.
    That only leaves Orochimaru’s abilities. And every ability Orochimaru has Pain trumps. End result, Oro dies.

    Pain who has never lost a battle (and wouldn’t have lost if he was allowed to kill Naruto) versus Orochimaru, who’s lost so many times I’m beginning to think he’s Sakura’s dad.

  196. BTW, Kisame knows Kamehameha?!
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/507
    xD

  197. redbaron, ur my hero! lets just hope that ends the debate because the same points are being brought up over and over again and people on both sides are ignoring the facts that affect their choice… pein wins… no doubt

  198. Lol…this match.

    1.) Using Edo Tensei was always probable in battle but the time has always been the problem. Not only does he have to summon them first but tags have to be inserted and another hand seal made for complete and final control.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-119/page011.html

    Even if he were to summon them they’d be useless if Orochimaru is not near the bodies to insert the tags. A Bansho Tenin or Shira Tensei on either the bodies or Orochimaru would cause innumerable complications to Orochimaru’s plan.

    2.) Comparing chakra levels. Lol, no comment.

    3.) Summonings; Let’s approach this from a different perspective and you all can continue to debate over which summonings are stronger. Orochimaru has one body for summoning. Himself. He only summons snakes and one at a time. Pein uses one body to summon a multitude and variety of creatures at once leaving 5 other bodies to attack. While Orochimaru would be summoning Manda to counter whatever Animal Path is summoning he leaves himself open to the other 5 Paths, most noticeably Deva Path. If he doesn’t bother using a counter summoning then he’s just even more screwed.

    4.) Regeneration; If this is really such a big deal then we should remember Pein has the best regeneration. You can actually kill his bodies and they can be completely revived with seemingly little expense to chakra. That regeneration/replacement technique Orochimaru uses.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-296/page009.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-390/page008.html

    Consumes a massive amount of chakra, period.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-390/page015.html

    The Path that regenerates the other Paths is located in the back of the group and Orochimaru does not have the intel Naruto had. See my first point about Edo Tensei which would deal with a summoned Jiraya.

    5.) Why Orochimaru and Pein lost to the youngins’? Orochimaru lost to a 16 year old kid because he was dying deadly sick on his deathbed and it’s practically impossible to out genjutsu a Sharingan user. Pein lost to Naruto because of the extensive help he had from Jiraiya, Kakashi, and other multiple sources of intel and he was fighting a severely weakened opponent. Not to mention he had help from Hinata. What any of this has to do with this debate Pein vs. Orochimaru, I have no idea. So why are people bringing up who lost to what 16 year old kid is beyond me.

    What matters is how they lost not who they lost too. -_-

  199. @Kisame kamehameha in actuality it’s Samehameha

  200. “So why are people bringing up who lost to what 16 year old kid is beyond me.”

    adds to credibility i suppose

  201. Shinra Tensei didn’t deflect the Imari(menancing ball aka Naruto Chakra blast). He threw a boulder at him to divert the blast.

  202. Ehh, it’s just a little annoying because so many villains in the manga are being beaten by kids of the new generation. I don’t think it should effect credibility in anyway because it’s a theme of the manga.

    Kisame didn’t get beat by a kid though…>_> He had be put down by a Wonder Gate. Anyone else feel that fight was kinda rushed?

  203. That fight isn’t over yet. Maybe Kisame will grab Samehada and regenerate completely, leaving Guy with strained muscles and Naruto a chance to show us more of his Super Saiyan Mode. ^__^

  204. Have to pull out of the debate. Dad died recently and will be cremated today, and tomorrow my uncles are coming over to finish the floorboards in my house. Thanks for the debate, took my mind off things and gave me something to do rather than be emotional lol.

    A final thought: I think you guys should have allowed Edo Tensei to be prepared prior. You still could have won using Pein’s godlike abilities. Stripping a characters abilities away just for a win is hardly satisfying on either side of the debate. It’s a cheap win at best.

    Sorry Tenrai, I leave this debate in your capable hands!

  205. This chapter was awesome. Guy is officially a boss again, and kisame is just a monster. Kishi put so much into this chapter… compared to Tite who takes his f*%)king time in every chapter!

  206. I’m very sorry to hear about your dad Dark… Let me know if there’s anything WRA can do for you besides distracting you with a debate. I’ll take your final thought while biting my lip and staying my tongue, lol.

  207. @dark sry about ur father i give my condolences.
    @debate How about this setting Orochimaru finds out about Pain attempt to catch Utakata and ambushes him. Sound good.

  208. @supertrek

    The battle did feel kinda rushed, but hopefully it isn’t over yet.

    @debate

    Too many of the same points are still coming up over and over again, so I am not going to use retorts that I have already used before. Now that I am alone on this battlefield, I suppose its an uphill battle anyway. Too bad there was a poll involved, because if the decision was purely based on the skill of debating and not a mindless vote, I think Darks and I would have a very good chance. But as it stands now, I think we all know Pein will win simply because of overwhelming odds.

    Well, at least we battled valiantly. There was no ways I was going to let all of you guys just lie down with an easy victory. Youi have to earn it through skill and determination, so at least now if Pein is declared the winner, you can say that you fought for it.

    @Darks

    Thank you very much for helping me out there. It’s good to know someone has my back this time around and you were great. I hope things get better for you and your family, I really do. But if you ever need to talk, well, you know the rest.

    @debatees

    Thanks everyone for a good debate. I also needed the distraction and it seemed to go a long way. I am sorry if at any point in the debate I became overly zealous, but sometimes I get passionate, you know. It isn’t personal or intentional, so no hard feelings if I ever did come accross that way.

  209. @tenrai don’t forget me i contributed a little.

  210. @Kantonkage

    Lol. Thanks for your input as well, in that case.

    *Makes Kantonkage an honerary member of DarkSenshi.*

  211. this website is good for all of us i think, i think the majority of us don’t take whats said here seriously enough to get offended, at least i dont. Its all in good fun and i mean what better way to enjoy a manga that we all love… though now that im going into med school i think my frickin hours will go down hill from now on…

  212. @redbaron

    I just thought I would mentions one last thing here quick.

    There is nothing ridiculous about having fun in a debate and there is nothing ridiculous about some people having an opinion that differs from yours or everyone else, for that matter.

    Just because the majority believes one thing, that doesn’t mean all of us have to submit to that belief, so please remember that before you tell anyone else how ridiculous they are being. As I said before, we all debate for fun, but if we only chose the obvious winner every time, then where is the fun in that? Where is the challenge? When we learned debating in English class. We didn’t get to choose our sides for whatever particular topic we were debating, because teams had to be split evenly.

    So we got put on a side, even if it was one we would never support by choice. The art of debating involves a lot more than just choosing a winner and telling everyone else their opinions are wrong because you said so. It involves taking what information you have and making the most of it, making it sound sensible and making it believable or plausible. I think Darks and I did a good job, even if we lose in the end. In fact, we both went into this knowing we would likely lose, but we still did it regardless.

    In the end we didn’t just do this to win. We did it for the fun of the challenge.

  213. your fighting over someone who LEADS an S-class organization of Insanely powerful shinobi versus someone who is a mere MEMBER of this organization and left because he cannot defeat some other memeber?

    If Orochimaru was indeed the most powerful Sanin of the three, then his superiority wont surpass Jiraiya and Tsunade by that much putting the three of the on the same level as the other. But Nagato is in some other level. god-level if you ask me. He defeated someone who the three Sanin combined cannot defeat.

    But i like all of your efforts on this but your posts was so frigging long! Hehehe

  214. true Nagato did defeat Hanzo. Yes, Hanzo defeated and coined the Sannin but that was obviously a long time ago I seriously doubt that he could defeat the sannin now.

  215. Its true he cannot defeat the Sanins now, on a 3 on 1 match but what about 1 on 1? I still think Hanzo is one insanely powerful fella.

    And i agree. The three of them really improved the last time they fought Hanzo.

  216. @Dark – I’m truly sorry for your loss.

    @Tenrai and Dark – Tenrai, I agree, the same points seem to be making the 4th or 5th round about the table. Thanks for initiating me in what I think is a WRA tradition of great debates! I agree, I think you guys did a great job! Congratulations on a well-argued debate!

    @Super, Kisu, Omar, Red and anyone else who added their intelligent two cents on the side of Pein – *gets everyone in a huddle* 1 2 3 GOOO TEAM!!!! I think we should pat ourselves on our backs, too, for a well-fought debate. I owe you guys the same thanks.

    @Everyone in the debate – There’s only one way to celebrate a hard-fought debate… To the Bar!! Drinks on mee!! (Well, for the first round at least ;))

    Haha if only..
    *sniffs* closure is just great isn’t it? haha

  217. @gudoruto

    Lol. Yes, the posts were long. Sometimes, i would submit a comment and then just see all that typing I did. I would think “Woah, did I really just write all of that?”

    Lol.

    @urbanvolcano87

    I can’t drink alcohol, so I will just watch while everyone else gets drunk. Hmm… I wonder if eating everyone while they are no longer self aware would be bad for me as well. O_O

    I wonder who will be driving everyone home. <__<

  218. @Tenrai – I’m sorry about that. I guess I could brainstorm some non-alcoholic celebrations too.. *becomes confused, after being exposed to 3 years of college life, on what other ways to celebrate there are..)

  219. @gudoruto – and yet, despite how awesome Pein is, we not only managed to bring the debate itself (not the poll obviously) to a hard earned draw, BUT we were also able to change the opinions of some Pein supporters as well. XD Comeback champions DarkSenshi against the world, baby!

    @urban – escorts, dude! I bags Hinata!

    @everyone – thanks for the love, appreciate it. Only good thing is that I’ll be home more so I’ll be able to spend a helluva lot more time on the web and therefore more time on here than I usually do.

    @super – you could give me the blog out of sympathy…? Lol. Seriously though… O_O

  220. *bursts in through a window* I don’t drink either.
    I just realized that Pickles is actually Aizen because he planned this chaotic war. Which was awesome by the way *diverts explosive boulders that were fired two days ago, somewhere else*
    How about a decent crossover debate Ē vs Kenpachi?

  221. *then jumps out another window*

  222. @kantonkage

    Lol. That was random. O_o

    Poor window. *Uses goose tape to cover broken window.* T__T

    Anyway, crossover debates rarely work, especially considering the different rules each universe adheres to. However, if it was a debate about who was the coolest villain, for example, that would work better than an actual battle debate, because power wouldn’t be the only factor.

    The only other problem is that not everyone may read both manga or watch both anime that each character in the debate comes from, so the debate may have very few contenders.

  223. Bubble:
    Samehada: GiGiGiGiGiGiGi!! *♫He tastes like Octopus and he’s chakra loaded, big and thick and dumb as a stick, what would you dooo, for a Biju Bar♪*(sung to the toon of the Klondike bar song)
    Kirabee: What’s that Sasuke fell down a well!!…..and the well commited suicide?
    Caption: This manga panel brought to you by Google Translator =P

    Bubble 2:
    Kirabee: Bankai!!!!
    Samehada: GiGiGiGiGiGiGi!! *For the last time!! I am not a Zanpakto!!*

    A new debate?
    How about Jinchuriki Kazekage Gara vs Kirabee.
    And just to make it interesting lets have them both start this fight with the same amount of chakra and have it just be a battle of shinobi and not a war over which Biju is more powerful.

  224. @kantonkage — I thought Hanzo teleported before he got hit by Nagato’s ninjutsu?

  225. @pickles – I feel like gloating lol. Brother Pickles, traditionally the winners of a debate are chosen by how convincing their arguments are. I would like to present a brief recap of the past two-day debate, and let you decide for yourself which side performed better.

    Team DarkSenshi VS The World:

    When we entered the debate, 95% of WRA believed Pein would win without a moments thought. He had a daunting arsenal of god-like jutsu to support him, plus the most l33t of Doujutsus, the Rinnegan. Orochimaru was written off without proper consideration to his own fearsome array of techniques and abilities.

    Then came Edo Tensei (the ability to summon any past ninja to aid you in combat and grant them invulnerability to physical techniques), which in the eyes of many leveled the playing field. Suddenly, Big Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei weren’t quite so scary, and were in fact counterable. Oro and his lackeys were given protection against banshou tenin and all physical attacks by the iron sand of the Third Kazekage (and no, super you baka, deva path can’t maneuver a banshou tenin target around a wall as his ability merely creates a gravitational centre and pulls the victim towards it…unless you can prove otherwise?). Giant shinra tensei was shown to be survivable, leaving deva path an open target.

    Even super goes from – and I quote – “orochimaru’s summons pale in comparison to what Pein can muster”, to it’s acceptable for Pein’s bird summon to sacrifice it’s bomb-dropping accuracy and stay up in the air too far away to do anything, because “it’s better than being eaten, don’t you think?”

    In short, Tenrai and I brought Orochimaru up from not even being considered a fair match against Pein, to a worthy adversary capable of winning the match if he plays his cards right. The single most effective argument that the Pein debaters have put forward is that it is unfair for Orochimaru to use a body resurrection jutsu in preparation to a hard battle with a self-proclaimed god and thus reject even the possibility of him pulling off an Edo Tensei, while turning a blind eye to Nagato using a body reanimation jutsu to activate all six of his bodies in preparation to a fight with his former subordinate (considering he started fighting Jiraiya with only one body before deciding that he needed more). Even Naruto is allowed to gather natural sage chakra before the battle, summon two other clones to do the same thing, and be in full sage mode before his theoretical battles even start.

    So you tell me, buddy. Who debated their side of this match-up better?

    XD

    @everyone else – not starting a shit storm, just claiming my victory. I mean, our victory. *gulps as tenrai points to his own stomach, and then at me*

  226. @pisbolman true he did escape but sometime later nagato aka Pain killed Hanzo and everyone connected to him aka men women and children probably babies too.

  227. @Kanton, Bleach characters automatically win because humans can’t touch them 😉

    @Darks, Kisu says whut?

    @celebration, I say we form a cult, get some people to join, and then make them drink the coolaid. Y’know, for shitz and giggles 😀

  228. Bleach characters win because humans can’t even see them (with the possible exception of Sage Mode and ByaShaRinnegan users).

    Oh and nothing, kisu. I was just reading over the debate and thought to myself how well we two DarkSenshi members did in the debate. I decided to voice my opinion, is all. *gives you an aizen doll and a Jessica Alba poster and pats you on the head* off you go then, kiddy!

  229. kabuto says he is the best at edo wen summoning 5 tht means the most oro can sommon is 4 or LESS if ur gonna say it means just quality of summon than oro can summon a billion slackish ninjas next oro never came to a battle with edo summoned pain comes to battles with all 6 paths fat path cant absorb iron sand but can absorb chakra this arguement iis silly plus oro cant summon ppl he has no idea exist (thus cant summon peins parents) he cant summon 6 paths for same reason he only knows of him in theory plus he cant summon ppl who died after him since if the 2 battle its b4 either die or oro wud just summon nagato, so tht knocks out alot of ppl overall pein kix ass plus snake eating brds etc. is NOT a good arguement since snakes also eat frogs and can kill slugs, ther rules of nature dont apply to summons since those are quite unnatural, in fact i doubt tht oros big monster snake thing can beat the whole makubazkan

  230. sorry for double post

  231. bubulition

    samada-i had the time of my liiiife and i owe it all to youuu….

    bee-Girl…It’s easy to love me now ,Would you love me if I was down and out?Would you still have love for me?

    caption-love…. can get past racial barriers…. black rapper+ spiky vagina sword forever….. ❤

  232. wen jiria fought oro if u recall it was after being drugged by tsunade

  233. not quite because *check list* nope influence by ichigo *crosses out most of the names* nope she’s also a shinigami hybrid *cross out Karin* hmm Don Kanonji fits the bill. that’s absurd to put him in the same category with Ē. * shakes head then burns the list and shoots some random yaoi fangirls and anime/manga trolls just because they annoy me*

  234. @Blog: Lol, it’s time for the other side of the story. Now I feel like gloating. 😀

    95% of WRA came into the debate believing Pein would win and 99% of WRA left the debate knowing Pein would win! This is due in part thanks to the awesome debating of Kisu, Kanton, Redbaron, Omar, and Urban just to name a few. Of course I was there just to see it through. 😉

    The best debate put forth by Orochimaru supporters was using Edo Tensei and summoning up 3 Kages before the match started. Before that it was using Edo Tensei and summoning the Rikudou Senin on full assumption. Dark later shelved this idea. Then to persuade us it was fair for Orochimaru to use Edo Tensei before the match a “double standard” argument was used because Nagato prepares bodies and yada yada yada. ^_- Yet, this is a Pein vs. Orochimaru debate and after showing manga proof who Pein exactly was (The 6 Paths of Pein) it was proven to be completely different from any sort of summoning. Good ol’ debate. >_>

    Of course Naruto’s preparation for Sage Mode was also used as a counter argument but Naruto’s Sage Mode isn’t summoning additional fighters to the battlefield before the match starts is it? Basic preparation has always been allowed such as preparing kunai, scrolls, pills, and in recent case Naruto’s Sage clones. It’s big leap of faith to stretch the rules and let people start summoning Kages to the battle beforehand.

    While the Pein supporters proved time and again Pein trumps Orochimaru in all and every area and would win in the end. In other words Orochimaru never stood a chance but now he stands an infinitesimal chance thanks to the fantastic debates in his defense. That’s a compliment. =)

    Are all these things grossly exaggerated!? OF COURSE!!! MUhahahhahahahahahha!!!!

    @Pein supporters: Put your hands in the air and be proud of your work. You all did a superior job! I have a “feeling” I know where this decision will end up. Tsk…

    @Orochimaru supports (No use beating around the bush they’re Dark and Tenrai, lol): No hard feelings, really you all did an excellent job.

    We all know who would win though. 😉 Before anymore debates sprout up we should establish some ground rules on what is allowed and not allowed. Next thing I know I’ll be reading a debate about all sorts of beforehand prepped jutsu. XD Gaara already turned the battlefield to sand. Tsunade already summoned the snail and its been protecting and healing her before the match started. Pein actually already used Chibaku Tensei as he was walking on to the battlefield. Sasuke already prepped Kirin up before entering battle, no need for time now. Jiraiya enters the battle in Sage Mode, summoned frogs and all (Jiraiya can fuse with Ma and Pa Toad to maintain Sage Mode which Naruto can’t which is why his prepared clones are allowed). Deidara already ate his clay and walks on to the battlefield as the giant C4 bomb that blows you into pieces at the microscopic level…you know I could go on forever. How annoying would it be if future debates referenced the Pein & Orochimaru fight as an excuse to use all sorts of jutsu before the battle begins? Petty. -_- Nope, not happening. 🙂

  235. dark… that means that u didnt read the debate at all… it seems u established all these things in ur own mind, but we had defenses against all of those arguments u had. we didnt say he couldnt have edo tensei prepared, we said itd b wack if he arrives at the battle scene with like 8 summons just chillin, i mean come on, its not limiting. Ur best arguments against pein were, he wouldnt use that technique (chibaku tensei) and he wouldnt have enough chakra to do this or that when we know he has a lot of chakra. We never established that orochimaru could survive his massive shinra tensei cuz u guys compared naruto’s 4-tails blast to it, while using 6-tailed blast footage. U claim that izanagi and iron sand would b the solution but we already proved that preta path could absorb the chakra on this sand and make it into normal sand, and that danzo has no more sharingan left to use izanagi. and we established that the variety of peins summons are too much for the snakes that madara has to offer… even if u for some reason thing the snake can kill the bird, it can’t eat the rhino or the dogs or the chameleon. human and naraka path can remove the souls from the edo tensei summons and laser beam guy could attack and also be used as a sacrifice when deva is under attack (if needed) because a missile is stronger than a sword. and orochimaru will be off balance because of bansho tenin and shinra tensei and he can use the gedo mazo statue as well which i never understood why pein couldnt use it again? i know u said chakra but idk if we have any proof of that…?

  236. @Super

    “95% of WRA came into the debate believing Pein would win and 99% of WRA left the debate knowing Pein would win!”

    Too bad the poll says the pein supporters lost 4% of it’s voters, from 95% to 91%. 😛
    I voted Pein too, even though you did a great job, DarkSenshi!!! 😀

    And while this debate was happening, Pickles was watching from the shadows…

    *hears rustling in the bushes*

    There you are, Pi- *gets hit by tranquilizer dart and dragged into the darkness*

    Help me…

    0_0

  237. “We didnt say he couldnt have edo tensei prepared, we said itd b wack if he arrives at the battle scene with like 8 summons just chillin”

    You’re right about that. Most supporters of Pein didn’t even deny Orochimaru using Edo Tensei before the match even started. You all handled that perspective and still debated Orochimaru down. I believe it was just me who disagreed with such an argument being allowed. While one can argue Orochimaru is being “limited” one may also forget Pein is being “limited”. He also is not allowed to summon before the match starts.

    Rules rules we need rules. Like filler material can’t be used in debates. I like rules like this. I’ll talk to Pickles and Tenrai about future debates.

    @Dragon: Hmmm….you must have missed this part.

    “Are all these things grossly exaggerated!? OF COURSE!!! MUhahahhahahahahahha!!!!” (Super)

    Though, 91% is still a lot wouldn’t you say? ^_- Oh, and I do admit there was some truth hidden in all of the “exaggerated” material though.

  238. Well I limited some of the choice aka the one that died after said two were put out of commission.

  239. Ah, I’m so glad we can have debates here without anyone throwing a hissy-fit and taking everything too seriously. ^_^ Here’s a video for the all too serious ones. 😛

  240. Ive been reading over the debate the past few days and i must say, i am very impressed with the Oro Maru supporters despite the odds.

    I just want to give a good job, well done to those who debated. It was REALLY interesting to read and it is this kind of stuff that attracted me to the blogs in the first place.

    Cool Job;

    Tenrai
    Supertrek
    Kisu
    Darks
    Amar
    Naga
    Urban

    and all others who supported this debate. Way to keep the awesomeness flowing peoples. @_@

    Too bad we didn’t have a poll for people to vote on in this debate. <_<

  241. @dark: you sure put up a hell of a fight (you too tenrai) butyou completely ignored the rest of orochimaru’s arsenal. all you considered was edotensei saying that if he summoned powerful enough people he would win. so practically even the weakest person could beat the strongest person§(excluding chuck norris) if he can just summon enough strong people to win. your arguments could be used for anyone that knows edotensei.
    the debate transformed from pain vs orochimaru to team pain vs team orochimaru, with orochimaru doing nothing and the third kazekage practically defeating pain on his own…we should call team orochimaru team 3rd kazekage since orochimaru doesn’t lift a finger…. and if the 3rd was that strong, how did he get beaten by sasori and, more importantly, by SAKURA!?!? yup, perfect defense….

  242. Cos the kazekage is a mannequin used by a puppet man leagues behind anything Jeff Dunham could produce. ;D

    @the world – hey I just put my case before the judge. Don’t bother debating me about how good you did, sell it to pickles. XD

  243. @super – LOL at don’t worry be happy post

  244. Bubblition Contest

    KillerBee – Now see here, there’s no way Pein, with his superior abilities, loses to Orochimaru!
    Samehada – Must.. Eat.. You.. Get.. In.. My.. Belly..
    Caption – Tenrai?! Oh God! KillerBee! Quick! Stop debating!!

  245. @super – …sooooo, ummm…do I get the blog out of sympathy now?

  246. @Dark – lol escorts, if you got Hinata then I’m taking Sakura! *goes off to find Sakura*
    Me: Sakura, will you escort me to our date celebration?
    Sakura: Oh Urban! You’re so awesome! I’d love too!
    Me: Coolio! Then, let’s meet at 52nd South 7th Street at 8pm, that’s where the party is at.
    Sakura: Ok! I can’t wait!
    *leaves*
    *later that night Sakura goes to 52nd South 9th Street. I go to the party, which isn’t anywhere near 52nd South 9th Street.*
    *next day*
    Sakura: Urban, how could you stand me up like that?!
    Me: Easy, Sakura, cuz yous a bitch!
    lol

  247. *debate not date celebration haha

  248. @Super – I mean the only exaggeration I saw was the statistic 😉 and when the poll in favor of Pein is above 90% then who needs to count accurately anyway 😉

  249. @Dark: Ummm…let me think about it…

    *go reads a magazine* >_>

    @Urban: Shhhhhh…don’t tell them that. *_*

  250. Ehhhhhh…

    *super flips open the magazine to find a two page foldout devoted to convincing super to hand over the blog to darks*

    Hehe, you can’t escape…

    @urban – it’s only 91% because those who had already voted weren’t able to change their votes. ^_^

  251. O_O

    How’d this get in here? *closes magazine and goes to sleep*

    *dreams of Naruto discussion resuming and back on topicness*

    Dreaming of which. How many people think Kisame is dead next chapter? I do. Biting your tongue usually entails death when you bite it hard enough to gush blood out the mouth. Plus he’s surrounded by ninja with no way out and no Samehada. He’s a goner.

  252. *super dreams of how good he’d feel inside by handing over ownership of the blog to darks*

  253. “*gives you an aizen doll and a Jessica Alba poster and pats you on the head* off you go then, kiddy!”

    Thanks Darks old buddy old pal! I forgive you 4 your biased judging 🙂

  254. Mouth wounds don’t generally close easily, but this is Kisame. Gai is effectively out of commission, Naruto put his ankle out and Bee is drained. Plus, Kisame is cornered and cornered opponents tend to put all their all into the fight and worry less about their own wellbeing, which gives him a psychological edge.

  255. Lol is all good kisu

  256. nope because everyone who fights without the cloak dies! It’s amazing that he made it this far.

  257. Y’know Darks, you completely forgot the 5 Pronged Seal. lol that would have defeated the Six Paths…well he’d have to get in close and that would be where he’d lose X_X

  258. I think Kisame’ll die next chapter, but man did he shine this chapter. Kisame has always been my second favorite character, now I’m even more proud of him. I prefer him dying by biting his tongue off than anyone there killing him, it shows his determination.

  259. Hot damn, I had to google search before I remembered what the 5 pronged seal was. Well I’ll be damned. Two incapacitating close range techniques against each other. Guess that works out to be a draw.

  260. I want Suigetsu to have Samahada. Seriously cant wait for Kisame to Die and then get Revived again by Kabuto and then Die again.

  261. @kantonkage yeah.. i know that part.. but i think the manga didn’t say exactly that he killed Hanzo or I could be wrong (checking manga) 😀 It would be nice to see if the manga would put how Nagato killed Hanzo.. hmmn.. I think it’ll be cool and interesting.. since Hanzo is a powerful ninja back then..

  262. “I want Suigetsu to have Samahada. Seriously cant wait for Kisame to Die and then get Revived again by Kabuto and then Die again.”

    LOL. That would be funny. My guess is Sakura is going to be the one killing him the second time. Just like she killed the 3rd Kazekage puppet with it’s perfect defense. ^__^

    @ Tenrai,

    I didn’t mean to upset you. The “this is getting ridiculous” was more to say it’s ridiculous to think Orochimaru would defeat Pain and anybody here knows he wouldn’t. I admit, my first comment on the debate was a bit harsh. I’m sure Orochimaru would last a little longer than he would against Chuck Norris. But like I’ve said before, although completely ignored by both you and Dark, Orochimaru doesn’t know anything about Pain. He has never seen Pain fight. How does one prepare against an opponent they know nothing about. If Pain was like Kisame, summoning 3 powerful shinobi would have given Pain even more of an advantage.
    The best chance Orochimaru has is with 3 powerful genjutsu users. That’s Pains ‘greatest’ weakness. But even then, there are still 3 bodies that can cancel the genjutsu.
    Summoning Jiraiya could give Oro the intel he needed but then he’d only have two more summons left. That decreases his chances of succes even further.

    About debates in general,
    Like someone mentioned before (I think it was super) it probably is a good idea to set some ground-rules in the future. Establishing a certain point in the time-line of Naruto as the moment of battle would be good.

    About Kisame next chapter,

    I think he still has a great chance of escaping at least. The fight was much to short for a character of his stature to suddenly die. Guy’s inner Chuck Norris seems to be resting, Naruto has as much chance of beating Kisame as he has winning a kicking contest and Bee is out of chakra.
    But who knows. Maybe Motoi is really Goku’s descendant, activates his Super Saiyan mode and forms a Genki Dama to shoot Kisame into the sun.

  263. @Omar – hey just reading over your comment. You do know that the body resurrected by Edo Tensei is not the actual body they died in, right? A resurrected body uses soil and dust to transform the sacrificed body into the form the soul took while they were alive. This means new sharingan arm. Just making sure you knew. And kisu’s proof that preta path negated the iron sands effectiveness involved comparing melting ice to flying shrapnel. Hmmmm. Kisu, I love ya dude, but nah.

    @debate – I liked this debate. It was fun and we did put up a helluva fight. Next time Super, you’re going down. XD

  264. @redbaron – whether it is ridiculous to think one combatant is able to defeat another was not the point of this debate. The point was to prove it by putting up as good an argument as you can, regardless of which side of the debate you were on. If me and Tenrai hadn’t taken up the fight, there would not have been a debate and Pein would have won without anyone even giving Orochimaru a second thought. What’s the point of that? Red, dude, if you’re going to debate, you need to get used to the idea that not everyone is going to have the same opinion as you do. This does not make my opinion ridiculous, this does not make your opinion ridiculous either. This makes us opposing participants in a debate were the person with the better skills of persuasion emerges as the victor. I still say that was Team DarkSenshi (you didn’t see any Oro supporters go, “hey maybe they’re right, pein is the stronger ninja” now did ya? ;))

    you assume he didn’t know anything about Pein. I find it hard to believe that someone can work for someone he believed was stronger than him without knowing why he thought he was stronger than him in the first place. Not knowing ANYTHING about Pein? Anything at all? He was partnered with Sasori and was in the Akatsuki for quite some time. I’m sure he must have picked something up at the very least.

    @everyone – What’s all this? People scoffing at the perfect defense of the Third Kazekage, the greatest ninja the Sand have produced? Dont get confused, folks. Sakura beat a puppet Third Kazekage, not the actual Third Kazekage himself. It was Sasori wielding the iron sand, and I doubt me that he could use the iron sand nearly as effectively as the techniques inventor. You all seem to think he was some kind of pushover just cos Sakura laid waste to his dead body, or cos Sasori somehow got the drop on him. We don’t know the circumstances of the latter battle (perhaps Sasori ambushed Sandaime Kazekage and poisoned him before he even had time to react) so we can’t just make assumptions based on no factual evidence (as a certain fly would say lol).

  265. I have to say DarkSenshi did a good job “Powering” Oro up to an almost worthy match, but if Oro always was the strategical genius you claim, he likely wouldn’t be inside a sword right now…just sayin lol. I’m tired, you guys put too many words and I can’t think any more. But there is this one argument I have.

    Nagato wins. He has red hair. Red hair = over-powered or awesomeness. Need examples? fine: SS4 gogeta, Renji, Shanks, Erza, Gaara, Axel (KH2), Kushina, (Ichigo?) Seth Green, Isla Fisher, David Caruso (CSI Miami), Chuckie, little mermaid, Carrot top, and Lindsay Lohan…wait, i”m starting to kill my argument…

    Where am I again…Oh yeah, Isla Fisher…thats better…

  266. @ajd – hey now that’s not fair, Oro had no idea Itachi had the Sword of Totsuka! You can’t strategically prepare for anything that hax0rz lol

  267. lol, yeah. I originally sided with Pein, but I’ve not slept for a long time, and I can’t even remember all of what was brought up. Dear lord, i just ditched out of a watch i forgot i had…FML. I blame Oro for that as well. god darn it….GAH! MUST NOT MURDER!

  268. tune in tomorrow as I get my ass handed to me by a Chief…lol

  269. Lol well I hope you don’t get in too much shit dude

  270. *bursts through wall* yup red hair = badass *checks ajd’s list and crosses out david caruso, chuckie mermaid carrot top and lindsay lohan and replace them with Sasori, Kallen, Kenshin, Negi, Nagi, Asuna, Revy and Yoko* Yup that should do it *jumps out of the giant hole in the wall that I made earlier*

  271. “I still say that was Team DarkSenshi (you didn’t see any Oro supporters go, “hey maybe they’re right, pein is the stronger ninja” now did ya?”

    That’s because the only ones rooting for Orochimaru were you guys. 😛

    The votes Oro got were just sympathy votes, like you and Tenrai debating for him because nobody else would. And yes, I do know what a debate means. What it doesn’t mean is that at the end of the line people still can’t agree with each other. I’ve reputed all arguments helping Oro’s case but if most of my comments are just ignored why should I even bother debating.

    “you assume he didn’t know anything about Pein. I find it hard to believe that someone can work for someone he believed was stronger than him without knowing why he thought he was stronger than him in the first place.”

    Oro obviously did know about the Rinnegan, Pain wasn’t exactly hiding it so yeah he did know something.
    Seeing as how Jiraiya and Hanzo knew what the Rinnegan was Orochimaru probably did too. That is probably what kept Orochimaru from trying to take over or attacking Akatsuki. But your wright, it is an assumption. One that isn’t too far off seeing as only Tobi and Konan spoke with Pain personally.

    “It was Sasori wielding the iron sand, and I doubt me that he could use the iron sand nearly as effectively as the techniques inventor.”

    The techniques inventor was killed by Sasori and turned into a puppet. Sakura owned Sasori, Sasori owned the 3rd Kazekage so Sakura owns the 3rd Kazekage too. ^__^
    Don’t get me wrong, the Iron Sand is a nifty technique, but a perfect defense? Hehe, no. Don’t forget, unlike Gaara who can create and manipulate sand around him, the 3rd Kazekage couldn’t create extra iron powder. What he had with him was what he could use. When Sasori used him he had iron powder stored within the puppet so it’s most likely that the 3rd Kazekage didn’t even have that much iron powder on him when he was alive.

    Oh and furthermore,
    “A resurrected body uses soil and dust to transform the sacrificed body into the form the soul took while they were alive. This means new sharingan arm.”

    No it doesn’t. Danzou used the sharingans on his arm for Izanagi. Once Izanagi is used, the eye closes forever. Plus, Danzo didn’t die from using Izanagi, he died by Sasuke’s hand after he’d already closed all the eyes on his arm. The only thing he could do is use Izanagi and close Shisui’s eye. That will give him a minute to survive any attack but to me that’s just pointless. A body summoned with Edo Tensei regenerates from every attack. Why use Izanagi when there’s no risk. The only thing the Edo Tensei summons have to worry about is Human Path… Or being Chibaku Tensei’d.

    And as for your argument that the iron powder will keep shape after Preta Path has sucked the chakra out: It’s just like sand. It’s not like the iron powder is melted down into a steal object that has bindings on a molecular level. It sticks together with the help of the 3rd’s magnetic chakra. Remove the magnetic chakra and the iron powder weapon will lose its shape. Preta Path will get hit in the face with iron powder but I think he’ll survive.

  272. @redbaron

    I wasn’t upset, just defending my reasons for debating, even though I shouldn’t have to. In any case, we made the debate fun.

    @super

    Who was taking the debate seriously? O_o

  273. Oh hell. It’s like the debate has started all over again.

    @redbaron – sympathy votes, eh?

    “I think i want to change my vote. The insane debating power DarkSenshi is to strong. I cast my vote for Orochimaru. As pointed out before pain said that if jiraya had info on him he would have probably lost. Didnt orochimaru beat jiraya. Thats a better measure of his power i think.”
    shadowaid said this on August 25, 2010 at 11:26 am (edit)

    Did you guys get anything like this? Lol. Oh and btw, thanks shadowaid!

    With the Third Kazekage, like I said dude we don’t know the circumstances of Sasori’s fight with him, so we can’t assume anything based off that fight alone. Besides, saying Sasori can use iron sand better than the Kazekage just because he beat him is like saying Sakura can use puppets better than Sasori just because she beat him, too. And how do you know the Third Kazekage couldn’t make more iron sand? Iron can be mined from the minerals in the environment. Perhaps not in as large quantities as what a Shukaku jinchuuriki can obtain in regards to normal sand, but to say he couldn’t is again just another assumption.

    Now I want to get something straightened out. My argument was never that the iron sand will keep it’s shape after preta path absorbs the chakra propelling it (assuming that he can actually do that, considering it isn’t actually chakra directly propelling the iron but an external magnetic field created by his chakra), it was that the momentum of the now loose iron sand would still be damaging to him if fired at a path body at a high enough velocity, in the way shrapnel is damaging when propelled by the shockwave of a frag grenade.

    My point still stands, unless someone can prove that the momentum of the iron sand is affected so greatly purely by removing the propulsion factor that it completely loses it’s ability to penetrate. Another example of propulsion/momentum is firing a bullet. The shockwave that propels the bullet forward only directly affects the round for the first few feet, after which the massive momentum it has built up allows the bullet to continue it’s flight for another several hundred feet or so (depending obviously on a few variable factors such as make/model, bullet calibre, blah blah blah). Add to the equation that preta path can only absorb chakra a meter or so in front of him so the iron sand will still retain most of it’s shape, and you have a killer combination.

    As for Danzou, I think me that you’re missing my point. When Edo Tensei is performed, the soul is given an entirely new body that takes the shape of the souls body while it was alive, in it’s entirety. This means entirely new sharingan eyes are created from dust, granting him his full Izanagi functionality back. And we know that kekkei genkai can be brought back with Edo Tensei thanks to Shodaime Hokage. And I brought Izanagi in as an ultimate counter to Chibaku Tensei, because he can negate ever being trapped inside the Chibaku Tensei and he gets a full minute to dispose of the now-alone and vulnerable Deva Path, whereby releasing the rest of Team Oro from captivity. Or he gets ten full minutes of invincibility to dispose of ALL the Peins, who are left unable to land a blow on him. Either way really.

    Sorry for the lengthy response, wasn’t expecting another debate attempt lol.

  274. @Tenrai: Hopefully no-one, I just love that song so much. 😉

    @Debate: Pfffft, folks, Ajd closed this debate already.

    “I have to say DarkSenshi did a good job “Powering” Oro up to an almost worthy match, but if Oro always was the strategical genius you claim, he likely wouldn’t be inside a sword right now…just sayin lol.”

    “Nagato wins. He has red hair. Red hair = over-powered or awesomeness. Need examples? fine: SS4 gogeta, Renji, Shanks, Erza, Gaara, Axel (KH2), Kushina, (Ichigo?) Seth Green, Isla Fisher, David Caruso (CSI Miami), Chuckie, little mermaid, Carrot top, and Lindsay Lohan…wait, i”m starting to kill my argument…Where am I again…Oh yeah, Isla Fisher…thats better…”

    BAM!!! Ajd, that beats out every single one of my arguments I’ve ever made on IRA or WRA. Now that sir is quite a feat. ^_- Even had Kantonkage bursting through walls this argument was soooooo damn good!

    “*bursts through wall* yup red hair = badass *checks ajd’s list and crosses out david caruso, chuckie mermaid carrot top and lindsay lohan and replace them with Sasori, Kallen, Kenshin, Negi, Nagi, Asuna, Revy and Yoko* Yup that should do it *jumps out of the giant hole in the wall that I made earlier*”

    Kantonkage said this on August 28, 2010 at 6:02 am (edit)

    XD

  275. @Darks, what if that bullet was to fall apart into many pieces in mid-flight? Ice is a very good comparison because the atoms that keep the water as a solid object spread apart as more heat is introduced, and when they are far enough away, the ice becomes a liquid again. The only thing holding the iron sand construct together is magnetic chakra. When you remove that magnetic chakra, the Iron sand construct would crumble in mid-flight and become nothing but loose sand particles.

    @3rd Kazekage, Sasori defeated both Sakura and Chiyo, he just decided to die in his parents’ embrace, suicide. The 3rd Kazekage puppet was only destroyed because Sasori got cocky and sent it in for the kill instead of just crushing Sakura with Iron Sand. But in one respect, Sasori’s Iron Sand was better than the 3rd’s while he was alive. Sasori’s was poisoned.

    @Darks, saying the Third was Suna’s strongest ninja doesn’t really add to his credibility considering Suna’s easily the weakest of the 5 Great villages.

  276. Hmm, I’m a bit rusty in chemistry 😛

  277. dark- as super clarified, there would be no sharingans on his arms, just like nagato revived has white hair, they dont revive at their strongest point or else nidaime might have revived at a slightly younger moment in time, same with first hokage… You say we can’t speculate about the 3rd kazekage, but it seems to me like the one speculating is u, saying that he lost to sasori immediately via poison/ambush. For all we know it couldve been an all out fight and sasori just overpowered him. What kind of kage would lose in an instant because of ambush without putting up a fight (unless severely outmatched) Secondly, uve been using 3rd kazekage to make an iron wall, and now ur saying that its a projectile. as a projectile, deva path can shinra tensei it (yes thats a verb now) weird stuff. besides ur the one assuming the the 3rd’s puppet was weaker than the third himself… thats an assumption with no background, all of the puppets sasori made were stronger than the original because of their resistance to attacks- like his mom and dad, heck even himself… its him + a ton of firearms, poison, and hidden weapons… Same with kazekage…. iron sand plus explosives etc…

  278. “saying Sasori can use iron sand better than the Kazekage just because he beat him is like saying Sakura can use puppets better than Sasori just because she beat him, too.”

    That’s not what I said. Learn to read. I said Sasori owned the 3rd. And really, if he was ambushed by Sasori than what kind of Kage is he?! Is he at Tsunade’s level?

    “And how do you know the Third Kazekage couldn’t make more iron sand? Iron can be mined from the minerals in the environment.”

    And how do you know he could. I’m applying simple physics, you don’t just extract iron powder straight out of the ground. It’s entirely different from sand.

    And iron sand isn’t like a bullet or shrapnel from a grenade. It’s iron powder with chakra keeping it together. Remove the chakra and all that remains is powder. The shape will immediately loose its momentum because of it crumbling apart. Preta Path will get a face full of powder. I’m sure it will sting a little.

    “And we know that kekkei genkai can be brought back with Edo Tensei thanks to Shodaime Hokage.”

    Kekkei Genkai can be brought back. Closed eyes can’t. Izanagi closes the eyes FOREVER. Same as Shiki Fuujin sealed souls are trapped forever. Which part of Forever don’t you understand, the for or the ever?

    “because he can negate ever being trapped inside the Chibaku Tensei and he gets a full minute to dispose of the now-alone and vulnerable Deva Path”

    So Deva Path can’t use any attacks after Chibaku Tensei now… How the hell did that happen. Last time I saw him do it he was able to fight just fine after using it. Hmmm. must have misread the manga… >__>

    But you’re probably right, once Deva Path uses any attack he’s done for and the other 5 bodies probably won’t be able to do anything anymore too.

  279. @kisu – “what if that bullet was to fall apart into many pieces in mid-flight?”

    Dude, they already have those. They call ’em shotgun cartridges. XD well, not exactly. If that bullet was to break into little pieces, it’s momentum stays the same, but the force of impact is Now spread over a small area of impact, kind of like a shotgun cartridge. It’d prolly hurt more than the initial bullet would have. 😉

    @Omar – that’s a good point you bring up about the white hair on Nagato. But there are two problems with it. Firstly, the manga is purely black and white, so his hair colour could actually be a pale red colour (supported by the fact that Sasori’s Edo Tensei hair colour in the manga is also white, when we know his hair is actually red). Two, he does not have his Fuda tag inside his head yet, so he doesn’t look quite as good as he should lol.

    Speculation? Nah dude, what I said was that you can’t assume that the first kazekage died in a straight up battle because he may have been assassinated instead. I’m not saying that is definitely what happened, just bringing up the possibility. My opinion in this regard is just as valid as yours, which means either of us could be right, but we don’t know, and thus cannot assume anything.

    And a Kage who has been immobilized by poison and is having his muscles eaten because of it away cannot put up much of a fight. I would not think badly of anyone who was poisoned in such a way and then lost a fight, I would be expecting that outcome in fact.

    The iron sand can be used as both a barrier and a projectile weapon, we saw Sasori use it as both in his fight. And what I said was that Sasori couldn’t use the iron sand technique as well as the techniques inventor could. That’s an assumption I’m willing to put a stake on.

    @redbaron – you should work on your attitude. I will not debate you while you are being as rude and as insulting as you are now. I don’t recall questioning your intelligence or ability to read or comprehend information just because you did not agree with me, so why you feel the need to do it to me, I’ll never understand. Take a breather and think about it for a bit, cos your attitude has no place here.

  280. @kisu – oh yeah, and it’s not actually magnetic chakra that is carrying the iron sand particles, it is the manipulation of a magnetic field created by his chakra. This means that there isn’t necessarily chakra in the air, it could just be around him creating the intense magnetic field in the air. This makes more sense than flying magnetic chakra. Now get ready for…

    “DARKS REAL WORLD EXAMPLES!!”

    Episode #5 – Electromagnets

    Today I’ll be using the example of an electromagnet to further demonstrate my point. An electromagnet is essentially a standard magnet that has an electric current running through it, greatly increasing the strength of the magnets magnetic field. This does not mean the air is now full of electricity, it’s just around the magnet itself.

    “But Darks, what does that have to do with anything?”

    So glad you asked, Kisu, so glad you asked. Compare the electricity to the Kazekage’s chakra (it greatly enhances the magnetic field of the magnet, which in this case is the Kazekage).

    “But Darks, the Kazekage is not a magnet!”

    Actually, he is. XD All animal life forms have a slight magnetic field (produced by electrical currents in the body), it’s just not strong enough to be noticed. In the Kazekage’s case though, he was able to use his chakra to increase the strength of his so greatly that it now becomes battle-ready.

    “So, Darks, what you’re saying is, the Kazekage’s chakra is actually amplifying his natural magnetic field, not flying around in the air?”

    That’s exactly right, my friend!

    “I understand, Darks! Thanks for that!”

    Not a problem, Kisu. Join us next week, cos doubtless I’ll have another hundred or so of these examples to pull out of my ass in the next debate! XD

    Bohahahaha! *Don Kanonji style*

  281. lol, i must admit that dark has great debating skills! and he’s right about your comment being pretty rude baron, even though he’s wrong about the izanagi thing and team oro defeating pain….

    i know i should write some arguments but it’s 1 40 in the morning and enough has been said…

  282. It should also be possible thrusting the iron through the magnetic field to produce an electric current as well. It’s called inductance. As long as the magnetic field is actively in contact with the magnetic field, a current will travel through the iron, holding it intact. This would make it very possible to strike a target from 100 feet away, suggesting you apply a strong magnetic through which the giant mass of iron sand to consistently travel through. If the object is not moving, or the magnetic filed is not powerful enough, the sand will not hold shape. basically, use chakra flux lines that only require 5 feet around you, reaching as far as how much sand you have.

    Also, suggesting you have the sand to pull off an interior radius of 15 feet, and develop a method to have supporting sand acting as a “wire” to the outside, It would be impossible to penetrate, even when faced with “chakra draino” as the chakra itself is out of reach. whats holding the shape is basic AC current.

    It’s really an interesting power, and I wonder if Kishi even knew exactly what could have been done with it. I still lean to pein winning, but there’s is much more to these possible combination tactics. Really, Pein would have his hands full, not with Oro, but the strings in which he pulls have the potential to rape.

  283. “As long as the magnetic field is actively in contact with the magnetic field, a current will travel through the iron, holding it intact.”

    definately meant “magnetic field actively touching the iron sand’s shape” lol

  284. @truepein – I have a confession to make. I voted Pein in the polls lol. Admittedly that was before I took up the debate, but still.

    @ajd – thank you! Someone else who takes my point! Lol, though you probably explained it a bit better than I did. My explanation was a bit simple.

  285. @new debate. Sasori is the best kind of ambush ninja becuase he uses incurable poisons. Not sure how this ambush went down but he may not have even been a missing nin, so the kazekages gaurd may have been down. regardless how it happened sasori didnt have to out fight the kazekage, he just had to wait long enough for the poison to work. i doubt he could have won against the third if he hadnt poisoned him which i think is kinda a b*%ch move… He was the best kazekage, the title kage still means something even if it is one of the weaker villages.

  286. @Darks, I’m gonna ignore most of what you said because I’m watching One Piece right now, but I did notice 1 thing I wanna comment on 😛

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-269/02/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-449/
    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-449/12/

    Sasori’s hair was always a light color in the manga while Nagato’s was dark. So Nagato having white hair now means he’s in the state he was when he died, his body at least.

  287. @Darks, ur debating skills are most disturbing…inhuman in fact. Admit it, you’re a witch! No…that’s too easy, a witch would never admit to being a witch. I say we throw Darks into the ocean with weights tied to his back. If he drowns, he’s human and if he comes to the top, he’s a witch 🙂

  288. O_O ohshi-

    *uses witch powers to breathe underwater* hehehe…bet you didn’t see THAT coming! Now all that’s left to do is- *wriggles around underwater, before realizing he’s pinned down to the seafloor by kisu’s weights* oh…well…crap.

    @sasori’s hair – O_O that’s just stupid that they have the same colour hair in the anime, but black and white hair in the manga. How does that even work!? But ok, point taken. Still, the body’s condition will change with the insertion of the Fuda tag.

  289. kisu, r u watchin the new one piece episode? where can i find it?

  290. also, i feel like we have a lot of premeds on this site,… or at least science majors… u guys takin mcats any time soon? just took mine last year… its a bitch lol

  291. *dives in and saves Dark*
    @Evil redheads nagato’s hair is a darker shade than sasori’s.

  292. @kanton – awwww my hero…if only you were Fly, I’d kiss you. *pats you on the head and gives you a klondike bar instead*

  293. *takes Klondike bar and out of nowhere the infamous tune plays “What would ya do-o-o for a Klondike Bar?”

  294. @ Dark,

    If you felt insulted I apologize. I don´t mean to be stepping on anyones toes here. The forever part was a joke. I´ll add a smiley the next time as I meant to do but lately my posts keep disappearing because I use too many different smilies.
    As for the iron powder. He mixes his chakra with iron powder like Gaara mixes his chakra with sand, so if the chakra is absorbed out of it the iron powder will loose its magnetic charge. Meaning the Iron Sand will fall apart if it gets to close to Preta.

  295. *Second smilies should be faces.

  296. Oh my God, is this debate still not over yet.

    I’ll add my part in this dilema with the iron sand. Darks I have your bake here.
    Even if Fat Bastard realm took away the chakra from a spike shaped iron sand projectile, he could only to so at about 1,5 meters away from his body because we saw he can’t absorb further away then his hands reach.

    So by taking that chakra away at that close a range the sand iron powder in witch it would turn will result in a hit similar to Gaara’s own sand crushing blows.
    Dark’s was right to use physics here to prove a point, the momentum and velocity created by the blast wouldn’t loose any of it’s potential when it would hit preta path, the hit would only loose some of it’s strength due to the lose of the hard shape but the power of the hit would be the same.

    It’s been pointed out by Kisu that unfrozen water would do nothing to you if it’s melted right before the point of impact.
    Well if a big ass block of ice was falling on your head and right before if hit your head it turned to water I can guarantee that a broken back & neck would be walk in the park compared to the full extent of that hit.

    The thing is this is starting to be a debate about the 3rd kazekage and he isn’t the issue here.
    So stop speculating about him because we don’t actually know how much sand he could wield, how hie died, how he used his skills in battle. All we know is that he was the best in Suna and that he used iron sand, that’s all.
    Keep the debate on it’s main characters is what we should do. Not try and debate about a possible choice of Orochimaru for the edo tensei.

    Oh and Darks, you have my condolences for you dad, hope everything’s gonna be all right.

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