The Mystery Of Uchiha Madara…or is it Tobi…?

Picture by Sangar5729

Hey WRA, this subject has been on mind for far to long now so I thought it’d be a good idea to jot everything down in this post so everyone else can take a look at my scrambled thoughts (at your own risk). This is a small discussion post about the identity of Uchiha Madara! I’m just throwing out all the ideas I have on who Uchiha Madara could be and why. I incorporated some percentages and my own point scale so that you all can see who I think has the highest possibility of being Madara. These percentages are opinion based only and is far from official mind you. I’ve had this idea for awhile and I hope this can entice a few comments on who is the man behind the mask before Kishi reveals it to us, whenever that is. >_>

Before we review the prospects though we have to understand the subject of discussion, so here are key notes about the character “Uchiha Madara”. The character we see portraying himself as  Uchiha Madara in the present, not the Uchiha Madara of the past.

1.) Change of appearances:

A. 16 years ago, the time of the Kyubi attack, he wore the decorated mask and had the short Obito-like (you gotta admit it’s Obito-like) hair. Along with a pair of young looking arms.

B. 7 years later came the Uchiha Massacre and he rocked the Super Saiyan 3 long hair. The same hair Uchiha Madara had in the days he was known as alive and well. He also had the same decorated mask he wore at the Kyubi attack.

C. 9 years after the Uchiha Massacre we find he now dons a regular orange mask and has reverted back to his short Obito-like hair stlyle. When the mask was partly removed he was shown to have lines on the side of his face.

2.) His Sharingan:

A. Sharingan in the right eye.

B. We have never seen him turn it on or off.

C. We have never seen him activate MS or EMS.

3.) Miscellaneous Information:

Yenslave

A. Two different personalities or a cover?

B. Very advanced Space/Time jutsu

C. Typical badguy ambition of wanting to take over the world.

D. Wants to achieve the Perfect Body.

E. Questionable right arm.

F. Former Mizukage of Kirigakure.

G. Vast knowledge on Konoha, the Uchiha Clan, the Senju Clan, Rikudou Senin, and… Madara.

H. Familiar with the Kyubi and vice-versa.

And that’s Madara in a nutshell! We know so much but yet so little… Now moving on to the more interesting part of the post. The prospects!

Prospect #1

Picture by Xivk

Uchiha Shisui: The man Itachi looked up to and saw as an elder brother, and his closest friend.

Evidence:

1. Body of Uchiha Shisui was found drowned in Nakano River and reviewed by the Uchiha police force with their Sharingans. Ah, but wouldn’t that be evidence against Shisui for being the Madara persona? It was at first until this ability was revealed to us.

Connection? Did they really find Shisui’s body in that river? White Zetsu can make perfect clones and we don’t know how long Zetsu has been by Madara’s side. +25%

2. Shisui is missing an arm and an eye, both taken by Danzo for the record. Madara has a only been shown to have 1 eye and remember that suspicious right arm of his? Like a prosthetic. +20%

3. Kisame recognized Tobi/Madara as the Mizukage. Evidence shows the 4th Mizukage was being “controlled” (key word) by somebody. Kisame could have been calling Madara the “Mizukage” because he might as well have been since he was running everything behind the scenes. Shisui’s Sharingan was very special in that it could implant thoughts into an unsuspecting mind and control that person without notice. With Danzo dead, thus he can’t be Madara, that only leaves Shisui left with such a power. +35%

4. Shisui fought Ao at one point, a ninja of the Hidden Mist Village where the Mizukage reigns, giving more evidence to Shisui’s involvement in that location. +15%

5. Shissui was Itachi’s best friend and it’s strange how Itachi was, conveniently, the only one who knew “Madara” was still alive. Funny enough, when Sasuke directly asked if Itachi killed Shisui this is what he had to say. +5 %

Counter Evidence:

1. If Shisui never died how did Danzo come to acquire his arm and eye? -10%

2. If Shisui’s right eye was stolen and he’s Madara why does Madara still have his right eye? Truthfully, it never said Danzo stole Shisui’s right eye but if he instead stole Shisui’s left eye why would he implant it in his right eye socket? Seems unnecessary to me. If he wanted to implant a Sharingan into his right eye socket I see no reason why Danzo would not just take Shisui’s right eye… -30%

3. Itachi heavily implied he killed Shisui and there’s not really another explanation for Itachi receiving the MS. -20%

4. Madara seemed interested in Shisui’s eye from an unattached point of view. Not like he was trying to get his eye back. -10%

5. How would the Kyubi recognize Shisui? -5%

6. Hair…yep the hair. -5%

7. As an Uchiha why hasn’t Shisui, if he is Madara, been shown to turn off the Sharingan at least once? -5%

Overall Chance of Uchiha Shisui Being Madara: 15%

My thoughts: Shisui Uchiha is not Uchiha Madara. Just an accomplice who helped Madara control the 4th Mizukage. Possibly the reason why Itachi killed him.

Prospect #2

Picture by Adsontaicho

Danzo: One of the key officials involved in the Uchiha Massacre and had Shisui’s Sharingan in his right eye.

Evidence:

1. He had Shisui’s- ah who am I kidding the bastards dead. ~_~ -100%

Overall Chance of Danzo Being Madara: -100%

My thoughts: The bastards dead…but he was definitely involved with Uchiha Madara. Maybe he was the one helping Madara control the 4th Mizukage but he could hardly use Shisui’s eye any time he wanted…

Prospect #3

Picture by Gorachi

Obito: Kakashi’s old friend presumed dead but body never shown to be recovered.

Evidence:

1. At the time of the Kyubi attack Obito would have been 14 years old. Presumed dead for an entire year. The man shown to kidnap Naruto was hinted at to be very young from the looks of his arms and had a very similar hair style to that of Obito. +10%

2. Obito’s right side was crushed. Explaining the lines (scarring?) on the right side of Madara’s face? Explaining his suspicious right arm? +20%

3. Slight foreshadowing by Kishi? +5%

4. Madara’s Space/Time Jutsu is the exact opposite of Kakashi’s MS ability. While Madara can warp himself and those he touches freely and with little effort Kakashi can warp other objects and people with greater effort. Obito is an Uchiha, Kakashi is not. Kakashi took Obito’s left eye, Madara now wears a mask covering his left eye. His right eye is a Sharingan. +40%

5. Madara’s childish personality A.K.A Tobi could be explained with Obito’s involvement. Of course there’s the resemblance of names too. +15%

6. The hair…yep the hair. +10%

Counter Evidence:

1. In 1 year what would change Obito so much to attack Minato’s wife and his own village? -30%

2. If Obito’s right side was crushed what about his right leg? There has been nothing suspicious shown about it thus far. -10%

3. That “foreshadowing” could have just been…Madara looking at Kakashi… -20%

4. It’s not confirmed Madara is using his Sharingan for the Space/Time jutsu. If he is using a  Sharingan ability wouldn’t he at least have to activate MS, which we have never seen him use, to use such an ability? -10%

5. Madara could just be acting like a child at first to fool those around him. -5%

6. If it is Obitio, an Uchiha, then why hasn’t Madara been shown to turn off his Sharingan? -5%

7. At age 14 and with his personality, I don’t believe Obito could have the knowledge and history that Madara has been shown to know. -10%

8. Recognition. Would the Kyubi recognize Obito? -5%

Overall Chance of Uchiha Obito Being Madara: 5%

My thoughts: The only way Obito could be Madara is if Madara took over Obito’s body and reconstructed him with Zetsu’s help. Obito’s Sharingan is most likely connected with Madara so if Obito isn’t Madara he’d at least have some connection with him. That being Madara took his right Sharingan.

Note: *secretly hopes it’s Obito’s Sharingan*

Prospect #4

Picture by Pokefreak

Uchiha Madara: The man portraying himself as Uchiha Madara could actually be Uchiha Madara.

Evidence:

1. Knowledge. He knows so much about the past and everything related to the Senju and Uchiha it’s as if he was there at the beginning. He also knows to-secret information only a few should know. +25%

2. Kisame recognizes the man playing Tobi as “Madara” and not anyone else. +25%

3. Notable ninja such as Itachi, Jiraiya, and Danzo have all confirmed their thoughts on Uchiha Madara being alive. +15%

4. Uchiha Madara was “killed” at the Valley of End. Again, more evidence that should be against the prospect but that is until we learned about this.

Izanagi can easily fake a death and it would explain why Madara may have one eye. Madara did know so much about the technique after all. +15%

5. Recognition. If Madara is Madara then that would explain the Kyubi’s recognition of him. Madara used him before in the fight against Hashirama. +20%

Counter Evidence:

1. Anyone who studied the past extensively enough could be that knowledgeable. Though, this doesn’t explain how they would know the top-secret material Madara has blurted out. -5%

2. While Kisame has hinted at Madara playing Tobi. Others have hinted at Tobi playing Madara. -25%

3. The coffin. What’s in it that has Madara so riled up? If he’s Uchiha Madara nothing less than the appearance of the Rikudou Sennin should have him shaken. Is it Uchiha Madara’s real body? -25%

4. Jiraya, Danzo, Itachi. They simply could have been wrong. -10%

5. Little to no evidence that Madara even had Izanagi. -5%

6. Madara is yet another Uchiha. Again, if it’s truly him then why hasn’t Madara’s Sharingan ever been shown turned off? -5%

7. Going even further than that, Uchiha Madara had the EMS. If Madara is still alive then why haven’t we even seen at least the MS behind that mask? -10%

Overall Chance of Uchiha Madara being Uchiha Madara: 15%

My thoughts: From the looks of it Uchiha Madara could very well be playing himself. He’s doing the role well enough but what gets me is that we’ve never seen anything higher than a 3-tomoe Sharingan and Madara was known to achieve the highest level of the Sharingan, EMS. Plus, that coffin bit has me suspicious.

Prospect #5

Tobi: The son of Hashirama Senju and Mito Uzumaki.

1. Name. Hashirama’s little brother was named Tobirama. Tobi is a shortened version of that. +5%

2. Senju and Uzumaki blood would be flowing through his veins. Explaining how he could live for so long and not look or move like most men his age. He’d probably be around the Sandaime’s age at this point. +15%

3. At such an advanced age and privileged position he’d know a lot about the history of the Senju, Uzumaki, and Uchiha clans. +15%

4. With Hashirama’s blood and DNA flowing through him it would also explain why he could use the Sharingan efficiently and not feel the major drain a non-Uchiha should experience. +15%

5. As a non-Uchiha, explains why he may not be able to turn off the Sharingan. +10%

6. The swirly orange mask. Resembles the Uzumaki’s symbol but it flows in the opposite direction perhaps symbolizing the corruption he’s brought to the symbol or his opposition to everything they stand for. It also merges with the Sharingan on his right eye symbolizing what?

Does he need the combined powers of the Senju, Uzumaki, and Uchiha to become the host of the Juubi? The Senin had everything his two sons had to become the first Jinchuuirki so would Tobi want the same? +15%

7. Whiskers. What if those weren’t simply scars or lines of age? If we recall, Mito was a Jinchuuriki when she gave birth. Naruto Uzumaki came out of the womb with whiskers on his face before being implanted with the Kyubi. What physical feature would Mito’s child come out of the womb with? Something different from Naruto or the same? +15%

8. Recognition. If the Kyubi shared the womb of Mito Uzumaki with Tobi for 10 months wouldn’t the Kyubi recognize him? Plus, after the birth Tobi would have been around his mother Jincuuriki for a number of years before the Kyubi was transferred to Kushina. +10%

Counter Evidence:

1. The majority of the evidence is pure speculation. -50%

2. We don’t know if Hashirama and Mito had a boy or a girl. -10%

3. He didn’t always have the swirly orange mask. -15%

4. We know nothing of “Tobi’s” appearance so it’s no telling what he’d look like. -20%

Chances of Tobi being Uchiah Madara: 5%

My thoughts: I’m leaning in this direction but again, it’s mostly speculation. Why would Hashirama’s son hate him so much he’d betray him and the village of Konoha? My only thoughts to this is Mito had an affair with Uchiha Madara and the child is actually the son of Madara and Mito. Don’t look into that…

Prospects #6 and Up:

The Unknowns: Anybody left over that we hardly know anything about but could be cheaply stamped in their as Uchiha Madara.

The List:

Madara’s little brother, Uchiha Izuna.

Danzo’s former teammate, Uchiha Kagami.

Itachi and Sasuke’s father, Uchiha Fugaku.

Ebisu

Iruka

Zombie Danzo

Rikudou Sennin

and last but not least,

Tite Kubo

There you have it, my scrambled thoughts on who could be Uchiha Madara. No prospect is perfect and there are holes to every case. If anyone would like to add their thoughts feel free and as the manga goes along we’ll see what adds up and what doesn’t. If Uchiha Madara is two people I will shoot somebody. Laterz. 😉

Oh, and just because I love the video oh so much. XD

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~ by supertrek89 on July 14, 2010.

110 Responses to “The Mystery Of Uchiha Madara…or is it Tobi…?”

  1. 1st eh ? obito has some connection to madara , maybe madara is using obito’s body

  2. Second?

    Great post Super!

    I think you forgot someone in the poll… Aizen! 😉

  3. I assume that the kyuubi recognized Madara from his chakra or some other non-visual means, dating back to his earlier periods of domination by Madara.

    A thought I’ve been kicking around is what if Madara had found the immortality technique that Orochimaru was searching for? Explains how he survived the Valley of the End, possible Obito hijacking, Kabuto’s interest and the final coffin (Where’d you get my corpse!?).

  4. Very interesting post. I’d never heard the whiskers theory before, nice catch!

  5. Did Hashirama and Mito have a son named Tobi and if so can you show me the link?

  6. No, Hashirama’s little brother was named TOBIrama. They had a child, but we don’t even know if it was a boy or girl.

  7. Something I thought of while reading this post…… why does everyone in Naruto have the same size eyeballs and sockets? And how the crap did Danzo get all of those Sharingans in his arm without removing some bone? One last thing, what exactly does everyone expect the scale of Kabutos regeneration to be? Coupled with Orochimaru’s cells, Orochimaru’s jutsu, his jutsu (which has probably improved), and quite possibly the cursed seal along with whatever other new tricks he has up his sleeve, i’m thinking it’s going to be dang near instantaneous like Alucard or Buu.

  8. Kabuto has surpassed Orochimaru in everyway at this point in time I think, I rekon it would be cool if Kabuto was seen learning his pawns Kinjutsu. Like if Kabuto had snake mouths on his hands like diedara which spewed out swords and items or if he learnt Kakuza thread techniques and Sasoris chakra strings so instead of consuming new bodys he could replace parts or consume new abilitys like a snake. And Kabuto could adopt a few simple paths of pain Apsorption chakra seal and Soul remove and finally take Itachi’s MS items Sword of Totsuka and the Yata Mirror with those simple kinjutsu upgrades Kabuto would be Awesome.
    And that could possibly all happen off screen and be easliy adapted into script Me Thinks.

  9. On the vote list it says Hash and Mito Kid AKA Tobi, is that heresay of fact??

    Tobi I think is a Sharigan version of Zetsu & Orochimaru but better and hes not one person but many its just his Sharigan that keeps him in control, But his connection with Obito Hmm..Theory Time.
    Obito and Shizui were brothers, Obito didnt Die but unlocked his Sharigan and phase escaped later on being notcied by Zetsu and The Shell Tobi. Obito got Absorbed later Tobi wanted his brothers MS and told Shizui he gotta kills Itachi, But Itachi knew who Tobi was and somehow won but somehow fooled cause he said he didnt kill Shizui. Tobito possibly tried to retrieve the Eyes but only got 1 Danzou the other which was the eye to change Wills that could explain why Tobi wanted it possibly having then 2 EMS, Maybe also Tobi’s Dissapointment cause he REally wants to Revive someone special to him could be Shizui the Unknown player.
    Im done.

  10. That was a very interesting post Super, and quite entertaining to read.

    In my opinion, I believe that Madara may have used Obito’s body for a soul transfer jutsu similar to what Orochimaru uses. We know when Orochimaru transfers his soul, he still retains his own chakra and power, from what we have seen, so that would explain why the Kyuubi might have recognized Madara (Same chakra).

    It would also explain why Madara seems to use the same space time jutsu as Kakashi. The only difference with Madara is the range he is showing using the jutsu (always close range or on himself) while Kakashi is seen using it at longer ranges, albeit with far less accuracy. They even look the same visually, from what we have seen in the manga.

    Actually, I think Madara’s teleportation is simply him using the jutsu on himself. We know that Kamui can send whatever it targets into another dimension and we have seen Madara teleport Sasuke and Karin into what looks like another dimension as well, so they both have the same effect, it is simply a case of Madara’s being accurate enough to teleport an entire person without harming them, rather than just swallowing a part of them (Like with Deidara’s arm). All Madara would have to do is absorb himself into another dimension, and then from there, create a new opening at a different location.

    Of course, that could also be why Madara only uses it at close range, because it may be more accurate than using it at long ranges and he may not want to waste chakra on a potential miss. This is further supported by Kakashi’s own experiences, because he struggled to swallow Deidara during the Gaara rescue arc (At a long range), but he managed to swallow both a nail (much smaller and faster moving target) and a crossbow bolt that is bigger than a person (showing his ability to swallow small and large objects whole), with both instances being at a much closer range. (The projectiles were about to hit him).

    In any case, even if it is Obito’s body that the real Madara is using, I doubt any of Obito’s personality is left, unless it only exists subconsciously or is suppressed. That might explain the times Madara acted childishly (a personality disorder caused by that remnant subconscious from Obito).

  11. Now, someone tell me I am wrong so I can debate with them. That way we can get some more comments onto this post, because it deserves some attention after the time and effort Super put into it. ^ ^

    *Prepares* @__@

  12. Well I see nothing wrong with you’re post, but if you want a debate…… um……. hmm……. huh……. uh, You’re Ugly! and uh….. Dumb! or something!

    No really, I don’t see anything to debate in your post. Both of you’re theories seem plausible enough. I doubt there was any remnant subconscious of obito though, if there was why did it suddenly disappear after however many years? Maybe Tobi can channel it when he pleases or something, I dunno.

  13. @Tenrai: I agree with your post and I think Obito is completely unaware of what his body is doing.

    Tobi-Madara suppresses Obito’s will and it surfaces only when he’s in a weak state.

    If Tobi is Obito, I can imagine a very emotional scene where Kakashi kills Tobi, but before he dies Obito comes out and speaks to him.

  14. Dragon! Get your butt back on the chat!

  15. @ Ama and Dragon

    Well, I guess that just killed any chance of a debate. lol!

  16. Lol, thanks everyone and I’ve reached my goal of 10 comments so I stamp this post as successful! 😀

    @Dragon: Tite Kubo is standing in as Aizen’s representative. 😉 From the looks of it he’s going to win the votes… x_x

    @BlackBurstBoom: Hashirama and Mito’s child is really unidentifiable since we only know of the existence of a child, nothing more. I speculated the name and the gender. It’s mostly theory which is why I taxed it heavily. I got the name “Tobi” from Hashirama’s younger brother. A shortened version of the name Tobirama and from there made a connection with Tobi/Madara.

    As for Obito and Shisui being brothers, that has definitely crossed my mind at one point. The funny thing is Obito would probably be the older brother because by the time Itachi (Shisui’s friend) was 5 Obtio was 14. If I knew how old Shisui was I could make a better connection but we know so little about the famous Uchiha. ~_~

    @Tenrai: Same here, nothing I can debate about your comment really, lol. I’m all for Obito’s personality leaking into Madara’s consciousness. That’s why I said Obito could have something to do with Madara’s childish personality, Tobi.

    On a side note thanks for the comment. ^_^

  17. @Tenrai, I find something to disagree with. The Sharingan is all about visulas. So how could Madara see his entire body to teleport it. I think that’s the reason Kakashi only teleports other objects because we cant see our own bodies without mirrors

    @Super, MUY EXCELLENTE (my spanish sucks :P)!

  18. Hmm… Kisu’s right, I didnt think about that.

  19. Super – Great post! I really enjoyed this, and I haven’t had time to post lately, but I was also toying with the idea of it being Hashi-Mito’s child.

    I however, must stick with the Obito-tobi theory…
    To counter some of the counter evidence (with complete Prawlshit)
    Counter Evidence:

    1. In 1 year what would change Obito so much to attack Minato’s wife and his own village?
    Simple – His master Minato and Konoha abandoned him and left him for dead. He may also have been brainwashed by the rock village nins. (only to gain more power, kill them, and escape)

    2. If Obito’s right side was crushed what about his right leg? There has been nothing suspicious shown about it thus far.
    Simple again – Rockbell Automail – Seriously though, who’s to say.

    3. That “foreshadowing” could have just been…Madara looking at Kakashi… This may be true, but I did like the point you made about his powers appearing to be opposite of Kakashi’s.

    4. It’s not confirmed Madara is using his Sharingan for the Space/Time jutsu. If he is using a Sharingan ability wouldn’t he at least have to activate MS, which we have never seen him use, to use such an ability?
    He may be saving his EMS/Ms for more important battles. It’s not impossible for somebody else to learn flying thunder god, or a variant of it. maybe that coupled with some simpler sharingan tech?

    5. Madara could just be acting like a child at first to fool those around him.
    Yes, which is the opposite of how my girlfriend acts. (Acts like adult, resorts to being a child when she doesnt get her way)

    6. If it is Obito, an Uchiha, then why hasn’t Madara been shown to turn off his Sharingan?
    He turns it off before bed. Or possibly to take a dump – nobody needs the sharingan’s focus to take a dump… maybe Sasuke..

    7. At age 14 and with his personality, I don’t believe Obito could have the knowledge and history the Madara has been shown to know.
    We don’t know alot about Madara’s bloodlines, or Obito’s ancestors. It could be possible that Obito was a descendant of Madara, and as such, they’d have a pretty detailed account of the “most powerful Uchiha” A reason for not making that public – Maybe because Madara was a douche, and shunned by the Uchiha after uniting with Konoha.

    All in all this is great! I had more or less lost complete interest in who Madara really was, but now I am really psyched to see just who Madara is.

  20. @ Tenrai – I had also considered the possibility of some sort of “residual Sharingan memory” Kakashi became more responsible, (like Obito) We’re led to believe he did this because of his feelings of regret, but what if there was more to it.

    This would also go along with a very old comment I posted on IRA stating that Madara lurked the world like Gollum from lord of the rings, and just “happened” upon Obito, and his eye. He plucked it out, called it his “precious” and away he went.

  21. Great breakdown super. Way to keep the awesomeness flowing. 😉

    @ Tenrai: I saw your post on the breakdown and i couldn’t help but notice the hints that kakashi’s use of his MS is far less effective and he lacks the ability to warp anything larger then an arrow less then five feet away?

    Is this what you were implying? Maybe i got the wrong interpretation. T__T

  22. SMALL post my arse!

    Interesting, however 😛

  23. Guys, looks like we’ll have to wait for onemmanga this week. Mangastream has a delay
    http://forum.mangastream.com/showthread.php?t=4868

  24. i think that its madara’s brother in the coffin!!!

  25. I think it’s the real Madara Uchiha.

  26. @super: we know a second thing about the child of mito and hashirama: its a parent of TSUNADE. i think tsunade could tell enough about her parents or even his uncle/aunt. i think this idea can be dumped.
    but he could be a descendant of madara, nobody ever mentioned that madara never had a child.
    and u didnt explain why tobi himself says that hes a shell of his former self. what happened? it seems that he simply lost his eyes.
    and why does tobi collect eyes??? like sharingans or even the rinnegan???
    or that strange connection between zetsu and tobi, they seem to be friends…

  27. @Prawl: Hell yeah, Obito/Tobi theory FTW! Did you just counter the counter evidence with counter-counter evidence!? @_0 Lol, I’m especially liking the Automail idea btw. XD Now that you got back into the excitement over Tobi/Madara’s true identity prepared to be disappointed when Kishi reveals to us it’s no one on this list and we were all terribly wrong! It’s going to be someone we haven’t seen in awhile, someone we’d least expect, a FUBAR moment that’ll make us go “NOOOOOOOO!”… It’s going to be Tiny. ~_~

    @Omar: Hmmm…now that’s something to look into but the question is how could Kabuchimaru blackmail Madara with Izuna’s body? Madara took his brother’s eyes (forced?) just to gain power. Kabuchimaru said I won’t tell anybody about this.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/490/04/

    Kabuchimaru revealing the identity of what’s inside the coffin is what halted Madara. If it was Izuna all Kabuchimaru could do was tell everyone, “Hey I have Uchiha Madara’s long dead brother here!” What purpose could that serve? o_o

    @Salami: AH! Perfecto! See, that’s why I love discussions. No one man can think of everything himself. 😉

    Though, the reason why I didn’t put in “Tobi/Madara is a shell of his former self” into the key notes about the character is because that’s basically saying “Tobi/Madara is Uchiha Madara”. If that was the final case then there’d be no point in this entire post or any other option. I didn’t want to give any opinionated info when building up the character we know as Tobi/Madara. And I believe Itachi said Madara is a shell of his former self.

    We can group Itachi’s belief of “Tobi/Madara is a shell of his former self” under notable ninja such as Itachi, Jiraiya, and Danzo believing Madara still to be alive.

    Good catch on the Tsunade thing! That’s if Hashirama and Mito didn’t have any other children though. They were together before Mito even became a Jinchuuriki. As for the Rinnengan and mass collection of Sharingans. Good questions I would love to have answered myself. Hehe, are you hinting to the idea of Madara having a kid with Mito? 😉 Or it could be with anyone else…>_> But I’d prefer it not be with some random woman we haven’t even heard about.

  28. I said it Once before ,I’ll say it again, This is madara but more of Frankin-dara. Orochimaru had to start somewhere and learn from someone. After seeing Danzo/Yamato and Orochimaru himself say he wanted the power to control the Ninetails….We already know he has been all over the 1st dna. Logic dictates the only other person whom could control the beast was Madara. So its quite possible everyone here is right.

  29. @super: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/04/

    This shows that it could possibly be his brother in the coffin, because he did it to protect, maybe he didn’t really want his brother to die… the one thing im still not sure about and the biggest whole in my theory is that there is no apparent reason to be ashamed about it.

  30. @Tenrai
    “I doubt any of Obito’s personality is left, unless it only exists subconsciously or is suppressed. That might explain the times Madara acted childishly (a personality disorder caused by that remnant subconscious from Obito).”
    I don’t think Obito’s subconscious has anything to do with Madara’s childish behavior. I stil firmly believe that ‘Tobi’ and his childish outbursts were all an act created by Madara to protect his identity until he was ready to introduce himself back into the world. Ever since Madara chatted w/ Naruto before the Kage summet, the childish outbursts have ceased to exist.
    But hey, I’m still completely for the theory that Madara is using Obito’s body. ^__^

    Also
    @Super
    I looooooved your theory on Hashirama’s and Mito’s child being Tobi/Madara, it really got me thinking. For example! you said:
    “Why would Hashirama’s son hate him so much he’d betray him and the village of Konoha?”
    Well, maybe it was because he wasn’t chosen to be the next host for the Kyuubi. Think about it… he was so mad that the host was to be a girl from Uzushiogakuro, and not him, the son of the first Hokage, Hashirama, and the Kyuubi’s host, Mito. This drove him to madness and caused him to hate Konoha and plot his revenge. Him being Tobidara would also explain how he would know when a hosts seal would be most vulnerable.

    That’s all I got >_>

  31. @omar: still no reason for kabuto to tell nobody about it.
    @super: at the kage summit tobi said himself that he is powerless cuz the fight with hashirama ended up in too deep wounds or something like that.
    and i still have to think about this all, maybe i come up with a whole new idea.

  32. so… why would this child of hashirama and mito call himself madara. and why what happened to the actual madara?

  33. @bb: hashiramas wife was the host of the kyuubi so she mustve been the mother of hashiramas child(ren). this theory makes no sense.
    but its true that theres no uchiha as jinchuriki, thats a good point.
    i can throw in dozens of my crazy theories ( danzo-tenzo, mokuton and first hokages cells? O_O).
    there are some crazy things going on the last chapters.
    for example in what way was is important to know that hiruzens father was named sasuke too? (sasuke sarutobi was the first ninja in mythology or something) and she told him that sasuke sarutobi mustve been some fine ninja.
    and i think, the answer who tobi is lies in KIRIGAKURE.

  34. Well it hasnt stated in words but Madara in the past had Kyuubi how he contained him is one thing, but we know Hashirama got it from hima and Mito sealed it.
    This could be one reason he was weaked and/or why he uses one eye.

  35. @The Incredible Marksman

    Actually, it would be more accurate to say that I was giving reasons why Kakashi’s Sharingan and its power might be similar to Madara’s and why it is more effective at close range.

    Either way, it is a given that Kakashi would have more trouble with his regardless, because he is a non-uchiha. The fact that he can use it so effectively at all is a compliment to his capability, if nothing else.

    I don’t just go around Kakashi bashing, and I do actually like him as a character, so I don’t see why anyone would think I am just trying to make him out to seem weak when all I am doing is stating the truth.

    If I say something about Naruto having to use two hands to form a Rasengan, does that in any way imply that his Rasengan is any less powerful or effective than, say for example, one of Jiraiya’s, or that he is in any way weak? I mean, he defeated the Kyuubi and he was still making clones to form Rasengans. <_<

    *Makes not never to use Kakashi in a comparison again,in case I get eaten.*

  36. Here’s another question for you!!!!!!!

    How did Deidara get his other arm back? (The one sucked up by Kakashi).

    Unless, of course, Tobi/Madara/Obito went into the same dimension it was sucked into and retrieved it, thus further supporting the theory that he might be using Obito’s body.

    Oh, and another thing, we never actually see Tobi’s sharingan when he uses his space-time jutsu, so for all we know he is using the MS. Maybe they are hiding it because his MS looks exactly like Kakashi’s. @__@

    It would be a good reason for Kishi to never allow it to be visible, because if we did see it, we would immediately know Tobi is either Obito, or he is using Obito’s body. (Hence, the plot twist would be spoiled). I can’t think of any other reason that Kishi would leave Tobi’s sharingan such a mystery when it comes to appearance while he is using his Space-time jutsu.

  37. And here’s another question!!!!!

    If an Uchiha and a Senju had a child together, would that child contain the original Sage’s power, due to the re-emergence of both sides of his bloodline?

    O___O

  38. @tenrai: or maybe it looks like uchiha madaras EMS 😉
    AND, i think senju and uchiha arent able to get children together 😀

  39. GAAAAHHH!! I don’t know what to think anymore. X__X
    I don’t think it’s Madara just beacuse…. I don’t know, I think I’m just very stubborn and my mind says that it isn’t Madara. X_X Sense enough for me I guess. X__X

    But who wants to destroy Konoha and brings peace to the word? Even if it’s an illution, I mean, well he has his own way of thinking and rescuing. But the destroy Konoha part and the world peace part doesn’t fit at all. X_X Damn Kishi, go make some CSI sections.

  40. @Salami: Nah, BB made sense and it could be the reason why, presuming the theory is correct, the son could have betrayed his father, mother, and his village.

    Ah, yeah I see where Madara says he’s weaker than in the past. Plus he remarked when facing Kabuchimaru that if he fought him he’d just weaken himself. Suspicious…

    @Omar: Because “Madara” is a commanding and fearsome name. It demands attention and exudes power, and at first he called himself Tobi.

    @Blastbusrtboom & Salami: What if by “shell of his former self” meant exactly that? A shell. An exterior. A mask. Covering up what’s really inside. A impersonator?

    @Tenrai: When Kakashi used the MS on Deidara it only severed Deidara’s right arm, not warping the entire thing it into another dimension.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/17/

    He then found his arm later with Tobi and Zetsu.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/281/15/

    At some point Kakuzu reattached the arm.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/355/08-09/

    His left arm was crushed by Gaara’s sand though. I guess someone just fixed it up.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/249/02/

    Great point on Tobi/Madara’s Sharingan never being seen when using the Space/Time Jutsu!

    @Kushina: Lolz.

  41. If someone bothers, I have a question! O_O

    What happend to Rin? O_O

    Kakashi promised Obito to take care of her, but then he said he failed that promise.

    Ps. I read manga only, yes, that means that I do not watch the anime.

  42. @Kushina: As you mentioned Kakashi said he failed to protect her so I guess she’s dead.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/425/02/

    We don’t know what happened to her though. It never says.

  43. Whoa whoa. Right above the orange Tobi pic, it says that the chances of Madara Uchiha being Madara Uchiha is 15%. Is that some sort of mistake ?
    And, Danzo never took Shisui’s arm, at least I don’t think so. That was Danzo’s own arm, just implanted with other people’s Sharingan, right ?

  44. If Madara truly IS Madara, I think I’ll be disappointed. True, that Madara has proven to be a great villain, I just don’t feel he can compare to AIZEN.

    As I’ve said before, Aizen is bad ass because he IS AIZEN. No explanations given – (at least until Tite Kubo tells us why)

    Since that is ‘used’ already, I think it would be even worse than the pein arc, if Madara simply turned out to be Madara, and he was so evil and powerful ‘just because’

    @ Supertrek – So if Madara was actually Zabuza Momochi, would that be unexpected enough?

  45. œsuper: if hashiramas son would hate the village etc, then his whole concept he made up would be totally self-owned, cuz the senju/uzumaki resemble LOVE, thus i think theres no possibility something like that happened.
    @nagashi: ao said he exactly sees the color of shisuis eye. i think its important that the eyes were in an uchiha-bodypart, otherwise it wouldnt be possible to control it, so its shisuis arm and his eye.
    i think shisui was playing an important role in the whole yagura-incident and maybe he was even in akatsuki.
    @kushina: maybe in the next chapters we read how the kyuubi killed rin 😉

    well i got a question, too: we never knew how akatsuki really was formed right? we know tobi pulling the strings and nagato was the fake-leader, but it all mustve started with tobi meeting nagato is that so? did tobi know that the rinnegan (nagato) existed? did he search him? how did he know that he’s in amegakure or was it just a coincidence?

  46. All the Obito/Tobi theorists raise you heads in joy. Tobi/Madara had the short Obito-like hair during the Kyubi attack 16 years ago! 1 year after Obito was left for dead.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/18388702/12

    And Minato doubts Uchiha Madara is still alive.

    @Nagashikage: If Danzo didn’t have Shisui’s arm then why is Shisui’s chakra coursing throughout the arm and shoulder? If Danzo only had Shisui’s eye then the chakra coursing throughout the arm and shoulder would all have to come from that one eye. Yet, there are 10 other Sharingans attached to that arm all from various other Uchiha ninja. All overcome by Shisui’s one eye?

    https://weareawesomeness.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/pic-16.jpg

    @Salami: Yeah, that’s what I couldn’t figure out either, why would Hashirama’s son hate the village.

  47. NEW ISSUE IS UP ON MANGASTREAM!

    Madara is TOBIRAMA SENJU! …sorta… maybe… well minato said he could use space time techs better than the second?

    HAshi-Mito child offspring? Looking more plausible!

  48. Oh God! Lol, what if Tobirama took Mito for a wife after his brother (Hashirama) passed away? Then Tobirama and Mito named their first kid Tobi after the father? XD That’s terrible…>_>

    *scratches idea but secretly makes a copy and stores it in a locked safe*

  49. This fight between Madara and The First Hokage battling.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/02/

    Seems fairly similar to his fight with The Fourth Hokage here.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/18388702/15

  50. @ repairman – I thought the same thing… I do hope at some point Kishi will give us the entire fight between Hashirama and Madara

    @ Supertrek – *raises glass* “TOBITO!”

    though the “tobi, child of the senju” theory is looking a bit more interesting.

    Did anyone else notice that Hiruzen had the ENMA staff?
    HIRUZEN: “Kyuubi, I’m gonna spank you… with my monkey staff… err… nevermind”

  51. @super: i thought tobirama named his child sakumo? oO (SPOILER @_@)

    nah, tobi IS madara uchiha, hes just the edolas one datte-bayo!!!

  52. I’m in the “madara is really madara” camp. With even Itachi saying that he’s just a “shell of his former self”, I think we were pretty much told that it really is him or at least partially him for now. I think his eye and consciousness are living on in a body created by zetsu. He wanted Pain to use his Rinne Tensei jutsu for his own purpose http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/18/, most likely to get the rest of his body resurrected. I know it’s an old, lingering theory but it makes the most sense so far

  53. TOBITOBIRAMAKUSUIZUNADRARANZO is his true name.

  54. and his last name is SENJUZUMUCHIMURA

  55. TOBITOBIRAMAKUSUIZUNADRARANZO SENJUZUMUCHIMURA, sounds as if hes welsh or something… from the village Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch-gakure, sounds realistic since it got something to do with a whirlpool :O
    and dont forget his fight with hashirama on top of Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu :O

    epic is epic.

  56. Madara is Madara. He can’t turn off his sharingan because he took his brothers eyes to give himself the eternal sharingan (i think i remember reading something like that). Maybe those with EMS can’t turn off their sharingan. He doesn’t use MS because the 1st used some Uzumaki sealing jutsu to seal his left eye. That is why he wears the mask, because there is a seal on his face (either that or there just isn’t anybody alive worth him having to use MS. Think about it, who has he fought recently that was anywhere near his level). He is still alive because he was hiding out in the other dimension. Like Itachi, he controls time and space in his other world. Kabuto has Madara’s little brother in the casket. That’s why Madara was surprised.

    Can’t be Danzo because he is dead.

    Can’t be Shisui because he is dead.

    Can’t be Obito because he is dead. Remember, his spirit met Kakashi and gave him thumbs up before Kakashi wen’t to hell and talked to papa (White Fang committed suicide, automatically in hell. Kakashi there for excessive masturbation while reading his “books”.)

    Can’t be the 1st son because how can inbreeding produce the most elite shinobi (Senju+Uzumaki=Kansas Families)

    Madara is Madara

  57. So… Since Minato is the ultimate bad ass genius *coughsexgodcough* and doesn’t think the masked man aka Tobi is Madara… then who’s next in line to be Tobi?

    btw… idk if this will make any difference, but I wonder if Tobi was acting in his “good boy” routine while fighting Minato or if he was being srs >.<

  58. Also
    @Salami and @Super
    Yeah, IDK why Hirashima’s son would hate the village either. But hey maybe because the dicision was made to make the next host Kushina instead of him, he blammed the entire village as “accomplices” and now seeks revenge. It could happen! We’ve seen it before with Sasuke
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/13/

  59. Tobi could be anyone at this point.. For all we know it could be Ino… lol

  60. TObito used the touch Kamui from his Left eye say that because the warp looks like its comes fromm the Left eye instead of when we see himself teleport away he uses the Right Eye, also when he attempted to warp Minato after Minato escaped he appeared to be fatigued/drained. So im thinking Tobi has 2 eyes for the use of his techniques and because he still using them then his left eye is EMS from Shizui and Danzou had Shizuis right eye so now Shizui has no eyes and hes dead and gone.
    So im still thinking the TObito has right eye MS and left eye EMS
    but cant use Susanoo cause you need 2 of the Same eyes though I dont think we can rule out the Possiblity of TObito using Susanoo technqies though because he only has one EMS + MS Susanoo isnt visable Kinda like this http://www.mangareader.net/93-31099-5/naruto/chapter-462.html Thats what Madara’s doing but I mean its like his Warp will take you to his Susanoo instead of Sasukes Susanoo leaking through what was Genjutsu, Thats also why I think TOBito said here http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-9/naruto/chapter-502.html Implying that your gonna see the real me so TObito warps him into his Dimension then his Susanoo does whatever but Im starting to think his only weakness is his defense.
    I hope it aint to confusing what Im trying to relay Im Blazed.

  61. @chairman That is a definite no.
    It’s SENJUZUMUCHIMURA TOBITOBIRAMAKUSUIZUNADRARANZO.

  62. @Salamiyo
    Who said The Kyuubi killed Rin? But that sounds very plausible.

    @asiankun
    Wtf? “White Fang committed suicide, automatically in hell. Kakashi there for excessive masturbation while reading his “books”.”

    Poor Kakashi, his “happiness” sent him to hell right away. X__X

    And what if there’s a new super villain we don’t know anything about eh? O_o

    But of course Madara can be an Orichimaru-type and gain himself eternal life.

  63. @Kushina

    “Poor Kakashi, his “happiness” sent him to hell right away. X__X”

    He went right away because we’re talking years of bating. He beat off to all 4 volumes of “Make-Out Tactics” and he sodomized Naruto with “1000 years of Death”. I’m sure that wasn’t the only time that happened. With his sharingan, he always finds an opening for that jutsu.

  64. But…. still…. he went to hell just because he likes porn?… alot? XD Lol… >_> I bet then all the guys should go to hell right away O_O’ *Looks at super* O___O”

  65. *looks at Kushina* O_O

    Kakashi’s father (Sakumo) was actually in limbo when Kakashi met up with him so neither of them were in hell. ~_~ This is off topic anyway. 😛

    @Asiankun: The Uzumaki and Senju are very distant relatives sharing extremely thinned out blood. Hashirama and Mito got together and had 1 child that we know of so that just shows nothing about their relationship was considered inbreeding.

  66. baka, itachi never had to turn off his sharingan, except for that one time after he used amaterasu to escape form jiraya. And madara is claimed to have a very nast chakra (nine tails) and a very gifted chakra (itachi) so he probably has such amstery ovver it he doesn’t need to turn it off. And if he did implant the eye, why would he be using it all the time? kakashi and danzo both are seen covering it up because as a non-Uchiha it takes even more chakra to use. so he’s def an uchiha, though it looks like he’ll be stealing the rinnegan soon from konan and use it to become the ultimate duel doujutsu wielding mother fucker in the shinobi world

  67. Nobody’s mentioned his hair yet. Why’d he grow it out, and then decide to shorten it again? I don’t think we’ll find out the truth about “Madara” without first learning more about old Kirigakure and the Mizukages up to the current one. It was where the story began doesn’t it make sense that it would play a major part in the story? Kirigakure was where Naruto first used the Kyuubi, where Sasuke awakened his sharingan, and team 7’s first real mission.

  68. @ama, Kishis draws these things as he goes and the difference in looks is probably just because kishi figured that when itachi was talking about madara we were seeing him before the fight with the first, and kishi drew him so we would recognize him more as madara, yet now, with tobi announcing the fourth shinobi war, and thus taking over asthe ultimate antagonist in the series, it sort of makes sense to draw him as people recognize him, more like tobi.at least he gave him the same mask, which i bet minato breaks in the fight, revealing his face, and therefore has to get a new mask.

    plus to prove my point chapter 400 and chapter 500 showing madara before the invasion and after the invasion were drawn over two years apart, which is probably long before kishi actually knew what direction he wanted to take madara’s cahracter.

  69. Awesome Post Super!

    I still think Madara is either Uchiha Kagami… Sorry was away on business couldn’t comment sooner… dude, unless Aizen is dressed as Tite I don’t think it could be him. He doesn’t have half the brain to for see the future and have such complex plans 😛

    other theory Tobi=Obito… I think we saw Kakashi now to disprove this, 502, Kakashi looks like a kid/Naruto current age while Tobi seems about Minito’s age…

  70. @Prawl – lol Girlfriend do that to twist your arm act childish @_@ gotta love it 😉

  71. @Alec: Ah, but Itachi had to turn off his Sharingan didn’t he? 😉 I’m not saying that Tobi/Madara “can’t” turn off his Sharingan. I’m stating he’s never been shown to turn it off which simply implies the possibility he may not be an Uchiha, or it may be an implant. Though, I believe we all rightfully assume if an Uchiha gets a Sharingan implant he/she can still turn it off and on.

    The only serious non-Uchiha candidate I have on that list for being Tobi/Madara is the son of Hashirama and Mito. Hashirama’s blood would explain why he could use the Sharingan so much without tiring. For instance, Danzo who had the 1st’s DNA implanted in him could use the Uchiha’s most powerful genjutsu for extended periods of time without significantly tiring and he is a non-Uchiha. Not only that but he used it multiple times.

    @Amaterasu: A few people have mentioned his hair changes. o_o It definitely could mean something or Alec could be right on the ball. Kirigakura definitely holds part of the key to Tobi/Madara’s identity though.

    @Pein: Lol, true enough about Tite. As for how Tobi/Madara “seems” well we can’t really tell with a mask on. >_>

  72. because of exhaustion after using a lot of chakra, from what we’ve seen madara hasn’t had to turn his off because one it doesn’t look like his teleportation thing takes a lot of chakra, and two, if he is madara, he has an eternal sharingan which means he never has to turn it off, so there’s no point in him doing so.

  73. Well, that’s just another thing. If he is Uchiha Madara why does he only wield a regular 3-tomoe Sharingan in his right eye? He’s telling everyone he encounters he’s “Uchiha Madara” so surely he’s not trying to hide something. Everyone who knows about Uchiha Madara knows he had the EMS. He even fought the 4th with just the regular Sharingan which makes me think Tobi/Madara doesn’t have EMS. At least not in his right eye.

    If Tobi/Madara is Uchiha Madara then that wouldn’t come much as a surprise for me. After all, I did give him one of the higher chances. To many things just seem odd and out of place for him to be “the” Uchiha Madara though.

  74. true dat, considering he’s never shown using a ms when he uses his technique, heck we never see his eye during that time, and considering we’ve already seen madara’s ems, i don’t know why kishis wouldn’t show it already, it’s not like they’re will be a huge surprise or anything. and there’s that one stupid line where he goes “uchiha madara’s power… my power”… wtf? I know there are people who refer to themselves in the third (gambit) but in the first and the third (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18/)… that’s why i don’t think kishi even knows just exactly what he wants to do with this character yet… though kabuto’s fifth summoning helped about as much as a flaming monkey thrown into the gulf of mexico

  75. actually now that i’ve read the post in it’s entirety <__>… X_X… moving on, i like the possibility that hasirama’s kid is madara, gives a good air of mystery and in an interview kishi did state that a relative of a hokage would be joining akatsuki, and technically tobi was never part of it until they started losing members like flies and were severely cut short in man-power. htough it doesn’t explain how he would have oh you know, more than a couple dozen pinned above his mantle??? (488 17)

  76. Maybe Madara lose his both eyes in fight with a First Hokage, so he doesn’t have EMS in the way we thought. He probably steal one eye from somebody. But in case of that theory, one question remains… why Madara have just only one eye? He has a million sharingan eyes in the jars! Why having only one?

    I too love the idea that Tobi is somehow child of Hashirama or Tobirama. I too remember the interview with Kishi and I believe that he meant of Tobi to be a distant (or a close relative) of a Hokage.

  77. @super – I know I ment more in stature, intellect etc. like you said in your post unless he had super training in a hyperbolic time chamber inside a inter dimentional gateway that the choo choo was destroyed…. but then again O_O

    Maybe Obito awakened his ms as he was about to die and be crushed when his MS was awakened, the amount of sadness and power transported him to the box world and that world time density (Bleach being copied of their copy O_O, would make sense the copy cat ninja was his friend….) So in box world Obito was isolated alone, maybe still badly hurt, suffering. slowly he began to think about how the war did this to him.. starting to blame Konoha since he is just a child and didn’t deserve this, all the while years going by while only seconds pass in the real world, think of Itachi’s Tsukuyomi and the perception of time given, then when he begins to heal etc he learns to master this technique and transport back into the village, to the tablet (it was said only Sasuke didn’t know about the Uchiha special meeting place and now with MS and Sharingan he learnt the story of Uchiha Madara and used that name plus the new power to gain respect quickly… but this does leave out him being the Muzikage or controlling him, unless the whole Uchiha Shisui is his brother thing is correct but then whats in the box?? What would Obito want to hide? The only person he needs to impress is Sasuke and keep him ally.. the rest still would fear him??

  78. Tobi is not Obito. Yondaime is Orito’s teacher and Minato will knew if he was behind mask.

    Only solution (for Tobi-Obito theory) is that Madara somehow take Orbito’s body and put himself in there, but that’s just a nonsence. If I was Madara, I will take some healthy Uchiha’s body, or at least body with all body parts (bout eyes, arms and so on…).

  79. That can’t really be said definitively depending if aging theory is correct there is no reason Minito would think that his dead student survived and became stronger then he is, but I agree Obito is far fetched at the moment, unless is was Madara who took Obito’s body over with the help of Zetsu

  80. @Alec: O_O Lol, ok moving on I completely forgot about that Kishi interview!!! I wonder if it’s still true about more powerful members joining Akatuki, thanks for reminding me about that. ^_-

    I have no clue what he plans on doing with all those Sharingan. Maybe make an army…? All I know is that he was there for the Uchiha Massacre which gives him plenty of time to collect them.

    @Cumulusbg: Tobi/Madara could have 2 eyes, we just don’t know what’s behind the mask. Maybe he’s saving that eye (the left eye) for the Rinnengan or maybe he’s covering it up because if someone sees his eye they’ll know something about him. Somebody needs to smack that mask off of him…>_>

    @Pein: Ah that’s right, Tobi/Madara does act much older than a 14 year old. That’s another possibility! A new one too. Obito aging in a different dimension and growing hateful at Konoha.

    You know it just occured to me when does Zetsu come into play? If Obito was resting in another dimension who put his body back together? When did Zetsu meet Tobi/Madara because he definitely plays a big role in all of this too. We need to unravel that mystery. In all honesty Zetsu is even more mysterious than Tobi/Madara.

  81. @ Super I was thinking the same about Zetsu… maybe Zetsu comes from land of Grass and as he was about to eat Obito after the world was destroyed and that could of also made Zetsu get stuck in the Box world with Obito O_O though this all seems like a stretch. This would maybe mean Zetsu would know he would have to keep Obito alive to someday get out and even could train him, this could of gotten them to bond O_o though this is sounding more and more like Gohan Piccilo evil version <__>

  82. cave not world O_O

  83. hmmm anyone start thinking box world reminds me of inner Ichigo world and what are in all the boxes O_O

  84. who am I kidding this is naruto in all those boxes are Dojutsu and Sharingans, Sasuke’s Personality, Naruto’s Reasoning and the point of Sakura are all hidden in the boxes O_O

  85. @super well technically now that saskue has pretty much teamed up with them, he is stronger than deidara and those guys so i guess that part has come true, as well that kabuto has now teamed up with madara, but still waiting for the kage relative…

  86. Maybe I should add Madara’s left arm is all f**ked up too.

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-503/03/

  87. My wild theory as to who the man claiming to be Madara is is thus.

    Madara is Uchiha Sasuke, who is thrown back in time when he tries to use a space time jutsu against Naruto in their upcoming battle. He then uses his knowledge of the future to create Akatsuki so that he can further his plans, which for some reason that I can not fathom have become the moons eye plan instead of all out revenge.

    Though if all people in the world are under perfect genjutsu he could really fuck with people he doesn’t like.

  88. @iamnotreallyhere

    That’s a really interesting theory. The only problem I see with it is that Sasuke’s ambitions for revenge on Konoha only came into existence because of what “Madara” told him about Konoha and Itachi. If Madara in this case was actually Sasuke, how would he have the knowledge of what happened unless he somehow told his past self? (Which wouldn’t be possible because if his past self never knew about it, then his future self wouldn’t either). He can’t tell himself something he doesn’t know, after all.

  89. @Tenrai Senshi
    It depends on a few variables Tenrai, the first being that Madara, whoever he may be, was telling the truth at all to begin with. He could have heard some of the facts from Itachi and made the rest up. Or he could have eavesdropped with his space time jutsu to find the details.

    The second variable is that the Madara/Sasuke is from a seperate potential timeline. One where he gets sent back in time much later in the timeline, and is thus trying to speed up the fight between sasuke and naruto in an attempt to change the timeline by getting himself/Sasuke sent back at a younger age.

    The third variable that I can think of is whether or not Kishi really likes the idea of time travel, and the potential for temporal paradoxes. In this I have no idea, we’ll just have to wait and see.

  90. @ I am not really here –

    A also been thinking of a space time sort of thing, though it is very difficult to write, since if there was no Madara there would be no Sasuke (evil) and if they are the same then Sasuke would never go back in the first place, since the only variable is Sasuke we would assume the rest would work out as it did anyways, Itachi shouldn’t change…

    This is my theory, Madara/ Tobi was truly created during the battle between Naruto and Sasuke but I think its Naruto that is thrown back, He takes all his power to absorb all the hate of the world into himself. He then finds himself at first in the future seeing that even after taking out the hate war and suffering didn’t disappear after seeing the true nature of human heart he looses hope and tries to undo it by going back, in such knowing about Naguto etc etc, he then works out a plan (with all this absorbed hatred) to make things right…

    This would work on a DBZ sort of system, where Trunks reality worked on seperate time stream and one did not effect the other, so the war in Tobi’s time would of been different reasons but still happened.

  91. @Pein
    I had a similar thought, but if that were the case then why would he need to steal some of the First Hokage’s DNA? Wouldn’t he already have that half of what the Sage of the six paths left his two sons? Wouldn’t it make more sense that he would need Uchiha DNA if that were the case? Also Madara/Tobi has advanced knowledge of Sharingan Jutsu that is still not widely known in the Narutoverse, such as Izanagi. My bet is still on it being Sasuke.

    As for Sasuke being the only variable, Let’s say he is sent back in time far enough that he tries to stop the Uchiha masacre and fails. He then noses around to find out what really happened and discovers the whole Konoha connection. He then spends the next X years planning his next move. This would explain how he knew about it when he told his younger self about it, thus creating the evil in Sasuke, thus ensuring his own existence.

    On a side note, if Madara/Tobi is really future Sasuke, Itachi may have figured this out. If so then the power he gave Naruto may be to fight Future Sasuke rather than the Sasuke of the present.

  92. @iamnotreallyhere, pein
    Naruto is going to be done soon (IMO), and pulling something like that would open up way too many holes to fill. Think of all the explaining they’d have to pull just to properly justify even it being Sasuke. It needs to be Obito, Tobirama, or just Madara. These can easily be explained in a chapter or two, and make sense WITHOUT opening the dangerous time travel door. Kishi needs to be careful not to drag Naruto on for too long, and personally I don’t want to see him shoot himself in the foot trying to explain how a “future Sasuke” came to be “Tobi/Madara”.

  93. @ajd
    Yeah it could be messy, but just think about it for a moment. If done well, it could lead to a meeting between Naruto and the Rikudo Senin, or some similarly awesome event.

  94. I’m not sure if this was mentioned here before, there are just too many comments! 🙂

    Concerning your contra point for Tobi being Uchiha Madara and the sixth coffin. You speculated that Madara’s real body could be in there and that freaked Tobi out that much.
    But that contradicts the Edo Tensei rule: Obviously, the dead’s body is simply SOME standard non-important body. The jutsu simply uses a “blank body” and modifies the looks according to the DNA you used for the jutsu. The look of Madara Uchiha, if he was in there, would simply be formed out of mud.

    So the only conclusion one could draw out of this would be “a person can only be summoned by Edo Tensei if you have the DNA of him”, and you can only summon DEAD people. So Madara has to be dead if he was in the coffin.

    Right?

  95. Can i AsK ???….

    Is Uchiha Madara and Uchiha Tobi are Only One?

  96. BUMP

  97. long hair, so not tobi.

    -spill7

  98. <_< Tobi had long hair before @______@

  99. This thread is gonna be alive again.. 😀 Pein and Spill the first ones to warm it up.. 😀

  100. From my post from 556’s breakdown. 😀

    The only senju who fought Madara was Hashirama and Minato. Now that we see Madara’s real body the theories about who really is behind the mask was chopped down to like a half. 😀 And I still on my theory that the man behind the mask is Hashirama. Maybe the man behind the mask saying that he won the fight with Hashirama may be the other way around that Hashirama did win the fight and then use Madara’s identity/name/etc. That explains too how the man behind the mask can use long izanagi or izanami because it is difficult to get senju blood than having uchiha blood re sharingan which you can just implant it.

    How in the world did the man in the mask(if he’s Tobi) get the senju blood fused with uchiha? We haven’t seen any about how he infused Hashirama’s power with his. But it’s interesting that we know that anyone can have uchiha power BUT with limited usage like easy chakra depletion. We did see at the man behind the mask’s HQ the DNA cultivation of the first. The only thing i know how to get senju power is by implanting it like Danzo did. Also with the uchiha stuff. But if the man behind the mask is Hashirama he already had senju and he just implanted the sharingan which we never see turn off. How in the world Tobi(if he is the man behind the mask) couldn’t turn off his sharingan if HE IS REALLY SOMEONE FROM UCHIHA? Would that mean Sasuke’s new EMS eyes won’t turn off too because it got implanted too? I hope you get the what i’m trying to say.. 😀 lol Sasuke’s implanted eyes is the only eyes we’re going to see that will turn off even if it’s implanted. If the man behind the mask is from Uchiha the implanted eyes in it’s MS or EMS should turn off when the user wishes to do.

    Take a look at Shishui’s eye from the crow. It did show MS or EMS then turned back to regular 3 tomoe when not in use. 😀 How come the man behind the mask cannot? 😀 I think he’s not from Uchiha clan but someone from Senju or Uzumaki. My guess is it’s Hashirama because he’s the only one who fought Madara. Was able to control Kyubii too.

  101. in last manga chapter kabuto revived madara…i believe tobi(current madara) is him and he was dead but revived by some1 with other jutsu ,and now he is revived again by orochimaru’s jutsu

  102. I don’t know how often you read these but the recent Anime fight between Tobi and Konan in Naruto Shippuden Episode 252 has shown that Tobi’s face is an olive colored skin… alot like Hashirama… I personally believe this eliminates alot of character possibilites from above..

  103. @ Ashes – although anime is not absolute… remember Pein’s eyes in early episodes etc.

  104. @Pein0avenue I think it’s very clear and I will give you reasons I just don’t want to go into detail here…

  105. @Ashes

    Here is the best place to go into detail. Long comments are not uncommon, if you look up. Lol.

  106. Tobi, Madara and Zetsu are a symbology of the Most Holy Trinity .
    Madara+Hashirama (Ying+Yang) have a son with “The Virgin Mary” (a character I refer to as Mr. X, who fused himself with the body of Madara) and formed Tobi (Jesus) and kept the will in Zetsu (Holy spirit).

  107. @Nike

    Did you put a lot of thought into that? O__o

  108. well I think that my comment will get lost but let me see if I can state this clearly. in Episode 252 we see Tobi without his mask. Konan’s explosive tags broke his mask. alot of people have been stating that he was scorched or his face was covered with soot from the explosive blast.

    Reasons why Tobi’s skin is similar to the 1st

    1. if it was an explosion there would be discoloration of his white headband which is just above his eye… there isn’t.

    2. Rivulets of water is running down his dark face, if it was soot it would be smeared

    3. the color of the soot or scorch mark is too uniform and evenly toned over his face… explosions are rarely very homogenous

    4. If his face was scorched or covered in soot by the blast he would’ve been blinded, if his skin was covered enough by the scorch or soot to turn him from white to olive color there would be alot of stuff in his eyes or a damaged eye… so eye damage or at least temporary blindness

    5. The mask protected his face, so if anything was scorched it would’ve been the mask because it prevented any eye damage or temporary blindness from “soot”, if his eye wasn’t damaged then obviously the explosion was unable to touch the skin.

    Rebuttal to “But Tobi is White!! look at previous episodes!”

    I. in the episode where Tobi fights Minato all we see is his arms and later we find out that they are most likely white zetsu arm prosthetics, so they are probably have a white skin tone to them.

    2. The only time besides the fight with Konan that we “see” Tobi’s face is in a cave dimly lit by a candle, the candle light touches Sasuke’s face directly but not Tobi’s

    3. the rest of the time all we see is a shadowed eye hole the rest of the time.

    Now I think the Son of Hashirama theory above explains the skin tone. if it was Mito and Hashirama’s son then we have someone who can use chakra chains knows about genetic stuff from his uncle Tobimara who he might be named for, and probably rebelled against his dad and became friends with Madara…. He is probably “No one” because he has been erased from the Konoha history books and is a classified secret or a secret taken to the grave….

  109. Reblogged this on Naruto & Naruto Shippuden: Mangá & Anime.

  110. My little two piece about it being Shisui. If recalled on the fight the masked man had with minato, Itachi was 12ish(same as sasuke in gen1) wouldnt shisui be near that same age? In addition, The Eye Itachi obtained from Shisui was his other eye. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/550/11
    Danzo obtained Shisui’s Eyes While he was ALIVE! as you can see, THAT eye is on the right side, opposite of Masked Man’s covered eye. =\

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