Naruto Manga 490 Breakdown. Theory chaos and a new debate!

Hey everyone and welcome to another weekly Naruto manga breakdown. It’s Tenrai Senshi here filling in for Captain Pickles, mostly because his internet is giving him nightmares and he is still recovering from his last date with ReFlex.

Cheating little…. *Ahem!!!* <_<

Anyway, to say that a lot has been happening recently in the manga would be like saying Jiraiya was a pervert, in that both are huge understatements. Unfortunately, a lot of these recent events may also be the cause of a lot of confusion amongst many readers, so let’s to sift through it together like one big angry mob of angry protesters with pitch forks and torches who want to murder Kishi happy family. ^ ^

All Itachi wanted to do was play normally with the other kids. T__T

That’s what happens when you hang with the wrong crowd. <_<

Anyway, to start things off, we have an interesting scenario presented to us with the sudden resurrection of five very prominent and powerful Akatsuki members that he had all assumed were completely out of the picture forever, until now. What makes it more interesting is that Kabuto offers them as a bolstering force to aid in Tobi’s war, which means they aren’t there just for show.

Now, I am sure there are a lot of mixed feelings regarding this particular turn of events. Many readers may feel a bit cheated, seeing some of their favorite characters being used as nothing more than mindless husks to do their master’s bidding. Others may be thrilled by the mere thought that we get to see them in action again. However, one particular discussion in general, was with regards to their abilities and how, in a few instances, some of them are even ‘whole’ in the first place.

To explain, I noticed a lot of comments that fueled discussion as to whether Itachi has his eyes, or how Deidara has a complete body. I think the answer is there if we look hard enough, so lets review what we know.

Well, that explains a lot. O_o

If you look at the page above, taken straight out of the manga, it explains that Edo Tensei uses the bodies of sacrifices in order to contain the souls of those who had previously passed away. The host’s body then begins to take on the form of the deceased and appears as they were when they were still alive.

In other words, it isn’t a jutsu that summons their corpse, but rather takes another sacrificial body and recreates it altogether into the form of the soul it contains. This explains how Deidara has a complete body that isn’t vapor dust and how Kakuzu would be able to move. It also explains how Itachi would, essentially, still have his eyes. If you take another look at the last panel of the previous manga, it was not only Itachi’s eyes that were darkened out, but rather all of them, so the chance of Itachi still having his eyes is almost certain.

I would like to thank Dark Avatar for pointing out the finer details to me beforehand. I hope that helps clear up a lot of the confusion and many of the questions people may have had. It seems Kishi did, in fact, think this one through.

He never saw that one coming. <_<

I think the real interest in this chapter, and the one that will generate the most discussions, is the contents of the last coffin that Kabuto summoned. Judging by Madara’s reaction, he was obviously shocked to see whoever it was. I was talking to another user, Pein0Avenue, and during our discussion, he helped me come up with an idea.

*Theory alert*

There were a few ideas that the person in the coffin might be Madara’s brother, or perhaps even the Sage of the Six Paths. However, I think the person in the coffin who was being resurrected may actually be Uchiha Madara. To explain, the reason I think this is because of Kabuto’s own words when he said “Don’t worry, I haven’t told a soul”.

Why would he say that, or need to keep who it is a secret for Madara’s sake, unless that secret would ultimately affect Madara. It got me thinking, that the one way to disprove Tobi’s claimed identity would be to summon the real Madara in the flesh, so to speak. However, that also leaves the question of who Tobi really is if he isn’t the real Madara so much as an imitator. For one thing, Tobi could be Madara’s brother, Izuna. he would know enough about Madara to pull off the act and he would even look similar. The other is that it is, perhaps, even Obito.

Eyes hold the truth hidden inside every human soul. It is our eyes that define that hidden bridge that can be reached no other way.

Now I know this brings out the Obito/Tobi theory again, but when you think about it, Obito, much like Pain has a lot to be resentful and bitter for. The war that cost the lives of friends and even his own body, would have left a terrible scar on his soul. If he had really survived, he would have no doubt learned of Rin’s death and, perhaps in an effort to ensure nothing like that ever happened again, he devised his own way of attaining peace much like Pein’s own ideals.

The Moon Eye plan.

Tobi also shows the use of a space-time jutsu all to similar to Kakashi’s only better controlled. Other than that, they are almost identical both aesthetically and in theoretical use. It would make sense if Kakashi had Obito’s other eye, that they would have the same techniques, so perhaps it isn’t far-fetched that Madara is Kakashi’s presumably dead friend.

My last point, is that Tobi always reiterates the idea that he is Madara all the time, even telling the worlds leaders such.Wouldn’t it be smarter to remain anonymous? Unless, of course, that is what he wants people to think…

Oh noes... X__X

After having a little chat about Kabuto becoming a part of the dark side and taking advantage of their free cookie scheme, Madara and his new ‘partner’ (ECK!!!) take a stroll outside, where Anko and a group led under her command are seen spying on them from a distance.

Anko asks the pertinent question of whether or not Kabuto led them there on purpose, by leaving a trail of dead bodies and who knows what other nasty stuff in his wake. To be honest, the question is interesting and there are a number of possibilities. For one, he could be leading Konoha into a trap. On the other hand, he might be trying to draw them to Madara/Obito/Tobi, in an effort to get them to wipe out a possible thorn in his own side. Kabuto has always been an enigmatic character that is very difficult to decipher and even now it’s hard to tell what his agenda is.

I think that is exactly why it is so interesting that he has come back into the equation, because the balance of power has become that much more precarious and fragile.

Another highlight of this chapter is, of course, Naruto’s acceptance of the key to his seal.

Naruto finally faces his fears and confronts the power that has overshadowed him his entire life. Now he seeks to conquer that demon and allow his true strength to finally shine through.

This was probably one of the most important steps Naruto has taken, probably more so than most people realise. It takes me back to the time Yamato told Naruto not to rely on the fox’s power, because it would make his own power diminish if he relied on it too much.

But now when I see what Naruto said, in saying that he had to understand that he was the Jinchuuriki for the Kyuubi and that he had to finally take control of that power, I realised that Yamato may have actually been incorrect in his advice. In a way, he prevented Naruto from facing his greatest problem. The Kyuubi’s power has always been a part of Naruto. Essentially, it is merged with him and a part of his body. By trying to avoid that fact and by hiding away from it, Naruto was essentially holding himself back with his own fears of being controlled.

Perhaps Yamato was correct, in that Naruto should not have allowed himself to be taken over by the Kyuubi’s influence just to gain enough power to save Sasuke. However, I think Naruto finally understands that he can no longer ignore what he has and I also think that Bee will have a lot to do with that growth in the near future. Maybe we will also be lucky enough to see Naruto and Bee facing off against Kisame.

Maybe he should let the neighbors know while he is at it. Oh, wait... <_<

We end our chapter with a brief scene involving Bee, the kumo strategists and, of course, our one and only Raikage. The fact that we get a glimpse of Bee right after Naruto mentions meeting an octopus definitely hints at their coming across one another.

What is also exciting is that we will probably get to see the Kage getting together again, probably with a great deal of other important figures, if they plan on holding another joint meeting again. That means we’ll probably get to see Naruto, Tsunade and Kakashi being a part of it this time around (perhaps with Kakashi and Naruto acting as escorts).

Anyway, that’s all there is for me to say about this weeks chapter. To end things off, I’ll post the top bubbleton entry from last week.

To63to: “Zombies-the next logical step from emos”

Well done to To63to for the entry.

Here’s this weeks bubbleton.

Insert possible caption here...

Remember to write on top of your entry, the word “BUBBLITION” or at least “BUBBLE” or “CAPTION” so I can easily find it.

I hope you all enjoyed the breakdown. It’s humor may not have been on a level of our good Captain Pickles, but I did try. To end things off, here’s the winner of last weeks official debate, with the most votes, Killer Bee.

Nothing quite hurts like the sting of a Bee, especially this one...

Here’s another debate for this week if anyone is interested.

A battle of the elites. Who would triumph between the famed Copy Ninja Hatake Kakashi and the Kazekage of Suna, Sabaku no Gaara?

Remember to get involved with the debate if you want to see your character win. The votes do count, but a good debate can easily turn the tides. 😉

See you all in the comments! ^ ^

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~ by Tenrai Senshi on April 13, 2010.

217 Responses to “Naruto Manga 490 Breakdown. Theory chaos and a new debate!”

  1. First!!!!!! Muhahahahahahah

  2. Second. Lucky I read it first !

  3. Woo hoo, two first places this week. I finally found my long lost sense of humor. 😀

  4. BUBBLE:

    Pein: Bom-b-b-bom-b-bom-b-bom-bom-b-b
    Kakuzu: Bom-b-b-bom-b-dang-d-dang-dang
    Deidara: da-dingy-dong-ding-blue-moon
    Sasori: Blue Mooooooooon, You saw me standing alooooone
    Itachi: Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my oooooown.

  5. Reference to the song 🙂

  6. Honourable mention! XD

    In a fight, Kakashi would win. He’s faster, his chidori/raikiri can puncture Gaara’s sand defense, and Gaara is bijuu-less. It’s a no-brainer.

  7. YOSH! Great job Tenrai! A anime and manga breakdown back to back ain’t easy. 😉

    The Madara in the coffin theory is probably the best one. A lot of people have agreed with that already but it’d still be badass if it was the Sage of 6 Paths. >_>

    @Gavin: LOL! I love that song! XD

    @Dark: Gotta agree with you there. Plus Kakashi could just warp Gaara right into another dimension and we know Kakashi can use his MS right off the bat. In fact he tried to do it against Madara to end the battle quickly so he can do the same for Gaara.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/487/04/

    Ah yes, cheap I know but a victory is a victory. 😛

  8. 8TH!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOO LOOK AT ME SOO COOL!!!

  9. 9th!!!! …..yay….

    @ Super and Dark – I agree with you guys, but I have to throw in a bit of “Ahsan” to this. Remember Kishi HATES Kakashi… so Kakashi would go to Kamui-Kablooey Gaara, and garra would just look at him and say “Don’t bother Kakashi, that won’t work on me EITHER! MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!” Followed by “OVERLY DRAMATIC SAND-COFFIN”

  10. Okay. One thing I would like to point out is that it couldn’t be the Sage of Six Paths. He’s too powerful. He’s suppose to be a mysterious character and Kishi wouldn’t want to spoil the mystery of him.

    I’ll add more later.

  11. BUBBLITION:

    1st: BACK
    2nd: STREET’S
    3rd: BACK
    4th: ALL-
    5th: RIGHT!

    CAPTION:
    No matter how violent the ninja, a boy-band is still gay

  12. BUBBLITION:

    Nagato: Marco…
    KaKuzu: Polo!
    Deidara: Maaaarco….
    Sasori: Polo!
    Itachi: Hey F*ck you guys, this isn’t fair!

    Caption: Never invite the blind kid to a game of Marco Polo

  13. Great breakdown Tenrai!

    *cough* Madara’s right eye is showing, Obito is missing his right eye…*cough*
    ^ The above is an Epic Fail on my part

    And for the debate I’m going to bring something to light that recently crossed my mind before I give my thoughts on who I think would win.

    Ok so remember way back in the Chunin exams when Sasuke pierced Gaara’s sand with Chidori? Well we all accepted it because its what the manga told us to accept (lol). Alright so fast forward ten years to Sasuke vs Raikage. How come the Raikage’s Lighting chakra infused leg drop didn’t go right through Gaara’s sand when he was about to finish off Sasuke? I mean Lightning chakra is lighting chakra regardless of who its coming from, right? Besides, we’ve seen Raikage use his Lightning chakra to cut through things (his arm, and [with help from Bee] Kisame’s head) so its not like his chakra is different. Does it mean that Gaara’s sand is stronger somehow? Or maybe Kishimoto just forgot, I mean it HAS been ten years. So I can’t give my opinion until we come to an understanding regarding Gaara’s sand.

    @Super: dude, long time no debate but this one should be a doozy. Kakashi has to focus on his target for his black hole MS jutsu to work, Gaara could just put a sand wall between him and Kakashi to render it useless. That is all for now, I await your rebuttal. 🙂

  14. @ everyone –

    Depending on the translation you read for this issue, Madara says “You bastard” to Kabuto… this leads me to believe that KENNY is in the coffin!

  15. BUBBLE:

    Nagato: Duck…
    KaKuzu: Duck…
    Deidara: Duck…
    Sasori: Duck…
    Itachi: Goose!

    How Kabuto keeps moral up with his summons.

  16. @drosensei:

    Wait a minute… Kakashi took Obito’s left eye. Wouldn’t Obito only have a possibly crushed right eye?

  17. Good Breakdown. Good to see you put Tobi and Obito in one pic. Now it’s easier to see the difference between Tobi and Obito. The eye doesn’t match, the eyebrow doesn’t match. Tobi is clearly not Obito.
    Now compare that half of Tobi’s face with Izuna’s face

    See the resemblance?..
    Besides, Izuna would know everything about the Mangekyo Sharingan, he knew that Sasuke would need time to adjust to the EMS;
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/488/17/
    He would know everything about the Uchiha’s past. There’s little to no chance Obito would have known all of this. Obito could have only learned about the MS or the Uchiha’s past by reading those Uchiha tablets in their secret hideout and then he would have known just as much as Sasuke. In other words, he wouldn’t know shit…
    Well that’s my opinion anyway.

    BUBBLE;
    Nagato: Let our powers combine. Earth…
    Kakuzu: Fire…
    Deidara: Wind…
    Sasori: Water…
    Itachi: Not this again…

    CAPTION;
    They were so full of live in the 90’s…
    At least we know who’s in the 6th coffin…

  18. oops, LMAO! EPIC FAIL!

  19. S’all good drosensei.

  20. So anyone else excited to see Nagato’s fighting style… (you know, since he no longer has “Pain”) I guess he could just summon the Gedo Mazo thing (that stabbed him in the back with those rods) that he used against Hanzou’s men, but I think it’d be much cooler to see him use a variety of jutsu and some rinnegan specific genjutsu… I’m afraid he will just have the abilities of the Pain bodies though; we’ll probably just see the return of Shinra Tensei… Oh well…

    Also how the hell will Sasori fight without puppets…? I guess the resurrection jutsu includes all the stuff in his inner puppet body(the 100 puppet army specifically), so Kabuto just revived that “form” of Sasori… I smell a plot hole kishi…

    PS: nice breakdown Pickles…

  21. well the sage of the six paths in that coffin would just be plain murder. Kishi would then have to do so much to compensate the alliance because they would be seriously lacking. With 7 tailed beasts, resurrection of killer akatsuki members through edo tensei, sasuke and madara’s EMS, madara talking about taking out the rinnegan, kabuto’s unseen pawns, there’s just no telling how to stop that.

    Kakashi vs Gaara? That is not even contestable. Obviously kakashi. i really wonder why this would be a debate in the first place. Apart from gaara loosing his bijuu and having sand which sucks against kakashi’s raikiri, kakashi’s had a lot more experience. His ability to use all elements and copy jutsu should not be taken lightly. He also has genjutsu, yet another area where gaara might be weak. Plus kakashi’s knowledge of ninjutsu has always helped him in most difficult situations. Gaara saw ausano’o and, sorry to say, retorted “is this the power of darkness?” showing that might have been his first time of seeing it. Kakashi saw it and immediately knew what it was. Information, which gaara as kazekage surprisingly should have a lot more access to.

    If anything, kakashi is not even Hokage yet because of the calibre of ninja konoha has. With tsunade, and even naruto lurking, you would see what copetition kakashi has.

    Perhaps a more suitable match up, like kakashi vs kabuto would do.

    @drosensei: Yeah, but remember sasuke’s chidori was able to pierce the raikage’s raiton armour. This is the same chidori that pierced gaara’s shukaku infused sand.

    and oh, about the madara body thing i just thought of something, and to be honest i hate having to revert to the tobi/obito theory, but i’m forced to concede, not to madara being obito, but to madara using another body. Perhaps some sort of body-soul transfer, and an edo tensei summon of the real madara(after bringing it back to life) would really ‘hurt’ madara.

  22. I still say Madara is Tobirama Senju (possesed by Madara)
    Or possibly he is Sai…

    The summoned coffin contained William Shakespeare… as no one could oppose him, as he would talk in ye olde english, and confuse the hell out of everyone! Dattebayo!

  23. @prawlkage lol at zombie shakespeare

    but seriously no minato option?
    come on
    animie pretty much said it was the 4th, and we all know kishi wouldve had a fit if they did something so drastic
    and since kabuto now has orochimaru’s powers and has “surpassed” him it is safe to assume that he CAN make zombie minato, something oro couldnt do.

  24. Buble
    I
    Like
    big
    butts
    and…. um I forgot

  25. Theres a mistake on the poll about the summoned atkisuski. They arent the coolest villians ever, ITACHI WAS THE COOLEST GOOD GUY!!!

  26. @Dro – During the Kakashi vs MS Sasuke fight, Sasuke had Susano’o fire a crossbow bolt at Kakashi so fast he had no time to dodge. He ate it with Kamui.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/484/06/

    Now, if he can swallow a Susano’o crossbow bolt at THAT speed, is it too much of a stretch to say that Kakashi could use Kamui on Gaara AGES before the guy could bring up a sand wall?

  27. @Totalitarian: You said’ Gaara saw ausano’o and, sorry to say, retorted “is this the power of darkness?” showing that might have been his first time of seeing it. Kakashi saw it and immediately knew what it was.

    Well Gaara instictivly understood that Sasuke’s Susano was related to his inner Darkness. Sasuke then Proceeded to tell him it was Susano, And later when Gaara met up with Kakashi and Team they informed him. So thats how Kakashi immediately knew what it was.

    @Debate: Gaara with Bijuu could Pawn Kakashi, But without his Bijuu then Kakashi Wins, If they were both 13 Gaara would kill Kakashi. And still Gaara has more potential without his Bijuu eventually his powers could move up to Iron sand Lvl he already knows Sand manipulation all he would need now is Magnetic chakra control and hes Surpassed Kakashi.
    Though this year is Kakashi’s year so this year he gets a new power in his MS and captures the 5th Bijuu. Then Kakashi wins over Gaara hands down.

  28. Im sorta curious about Sasori…..Why was his Puppet summoned ? They did sorta allude to Sasori being all puppet except for his heart. Wouldnt the summoning jutsu bring back his real body ?

  29. ****BUBBLE***
    Nagato:You
    Kazuku:Should
    Deidra:Eat
    Sasori:At
    Itachi:5 Guys

    (Caption)***Product Placement:Its Everywhere..

    ***For those that don’t get it…5 Guy’s is a burgerplace…Way better than McDonalds or BK combine even if they Merged the Whopper with the Big Mac…

  30. @Return_of_Ra Remember that Sasori built his puppet to look like him.

  31. I finally figured it out… Kabuto has summoned the most powerful of them all: The Swayze!

  32. @totalitarianhypnosis

    I don’t know how you can say that Gaara vs Kakashi isn’t a contestable match up. In fact, I think everyone is underestimating Gaara here. Her didn’t become the Kazekage because he had a cool outfit or rings around his eyes you know and contrary to what you may believe, he most certainly didn’t become Kazekage because of his Bijuu. He was feared and loathed for that thing more than respected, so no-one should assume it was the reason he was put into power.

    Now, if you look at Gaara during the kage meeting, he actually appeared to be more powerful than he was during the rescue arc where he fought Deidara. (The same Deidara that Kakashi could barely take an arm off pf even with help). Even Kankurou mentions that Gaara doesn’t need protection or escorts.

    Let me also remind you that Gaara managed to stop Sasuke’s attacks as well during the battle at the summit, inlcuding the almighty Amatarasu, and Sasuke has similar abilities to Kakashi, if only more powerful. The only trump card Kakashi has that completely unique is Kamui and that takes a lot of time and focus to use properly, time Gaara could use to just pwn him. If he remains on the move, or if he is too busy avoiding attacks, he will probably miss, and he have seen Kakashi struggling to hit a target that is hardly moving much less anything else.

    Gaara also knows about Kakashi’s abilities. It’s likely he would take to the air from the offset of the battle to avoid Kakashi’s Chidori or any other close range attacks. That leaves Kakashi with Kamui and any long range ninjutsu he has. We all know Gaara can stop just about any jutsu easily with his defense, so that leaves Kamui as the only attack Kakashi has to beat him. If Kakashi misses, or hits a sand clone (We know Gaara uses those often) then it is game over for Kakashi. Even one or to uses of Kamui can put him in hospital or kill him, so I don’t see how everyone seems to think it is that easy.

    To end things off, I would like to say that there is a good chance Kakashi could win, but to make out like it would be a cake walk is just illogical. Gaara doesn’t need a bijuu to be a strong Kage, in fact we have seen extremely strong kage who have never had Bijuu, so don’t make out like Gaara losing his Ichibi means he is suddenly a weak character. In fact, I think he is stronger now than he ever was if those clues are anything to go by.

  33. @1redbaron1

    The eye angle differences are easily excusable with aging. We have seen a drastic change in the shape of Sasuke’s eyes from when he was small (Flashbacks with Itachi) to his time as a gennin and now to his current eye shape.

    Other than that, their eyebrows do look the same to me and their faces overall seem oddly familiar to one another. Anyway, it was just a theory of mine, so that doesn’t mean it is right. I just thought it would be interesting.

    Oh, and Sasuke didn’t learn as much from the stone tablet because he didn’t have MS at the time. Remember that Tobi explained that more secrets get revealed in accordance with how powerful your eyes are. So if Obito attained the MS (Rin died, so that could have been the emotional trigger) he would be able to reveal more secrets than Sasuke would have been able to.

    Anyway, Madara’s history was pretty well known. Just about every older shinobi in Konoha including Kakashi who is along the same age as Obito, knew about him. I don’t see why Obito wouldn’t. Only the younger generation along with Naruto seem to lack any real knowledge.

  34. so yeah, the whole obito being tobi thing seems highly unlikely. i mean the 4th said that he fought tobi back when the fox attacked the village right? that wasnt long after obito had died on that mission. theres no way a 12 yr old kid could control the demon fox with his sharingan and be able to best the 4th hoakge in just a couple of years. it was also said that tobi was in akatsuki at the time. i doubt anyone in their would’ve listened to a little kid. It does however seem that tobi’s body is made out of the stuff from zetsu so maybe zetsu found obito and translated his brain and eye into one of his bodies?( its unlikely but u never know, this is a manga after all)

  35. BUBBLITION:

    Nagato: “buy”
    Kakuzu: “our”
    Deidara: “tasty”
    Sasori: “butterscotch cookies”
    Itachi: “or die”

    Caption: “Boy scouts-not as adorable as they used to be.”

  36. I’m not sure who brought this up, but Sasori would look much like the last puppet form that he had before he died. I think they mentioned somewhere that his last puppet resembled what he looked like before he made himself into an actual puppet. So that’s why his body would look like that last puppet. I’m not completely sure about that, but, yeah..

  37. We have no Idea how long ago the change took place but we do know he left the village 20 years prior to his death. That yould place in the 30-40 range, so no he couldnt still have the teenagers appearance…Could he? But I’ll bet thats the puppet.

  38. Yea Gavin I believe your right.

    Return of Ra that is his real body and he does have that teenagers appearance.

  39. BUBBLITION:

    Nagato: “Fi”
    Kakuzu: “Fai”
    Deidara: “Fo”
    Sasori: “Fu”
    Itachi: “I smell tofu”

    Caption: “Damn hippies…”

  40. BUBBLITION:

    Itachi: “Cause this is thriller, thriller night”
    Sasori: “And no one’s gonna save you from the beast about strike”
    Deidara: “You know it’s thriller, thriller night”
    Kakuzu: “You’re fighting for your life inside a killer, thriller tonight”
    Nagato: “Kabuto we ll need Mike for this one”

    Caption: “The legend is coming back…soon…forever!”

  41. BUBBLE

    itachi : wow
    sasori : hahah knew it
    deidra : lol
    kakuzu : meh
    nagato : sorry itachi but now the real god sent us to punish the gays you cant save sasugay

  42. about the debate kakashi beats gara though it would be a good fight @_@

    . We all know Gaara can stop just about any jutsu easily with his defense chidori broke through his “ultimate defence”

    kakashi has an even advanced form of chidori the raikiri!!!!

    and just if you were thinking it isnt long range ….

    silver wolf raikiri O_O

    If Kakashi misses, or hits a sand clone

    kakashi has repeatidly fooled awesomeness ninja like itachi/pein with his shawdow clones i doubt gara can use the clones anyway near kakashi’s level 😉

    as for the ms if you keep on giving examples of how kakashi could barely suck deidra’s arm to the other dimension that is old kakashi himself said at that time that he hadnt mastered it . in his fight again pein and sasugay he displayed what kamui can do 😉

  43. @TENRAI: Yeah, about gaara becoming the kazekage you could say that gaara worked his way up there a fair amount. However you’ll notice gaara was still feared and seen as a menace, even by the elders. Hence he was appointed kazekage in the hope that he would have to protect the village. When he was captured you could see the elders breathed a sigh of relief and immediately talked of replacing him. That didn’t sound very much like confidence there. Obviously, for e and watching the character of gaara, his true strength lay not on his jutsu array but in his ability to realise the role and importance of people in his daily affairs, understanding the word friendship and realising that true strength was needed to protect those close to him.

    In saying gaara and kakashi wasn’t an ideal matchup i do not necessarily mean it would be a walk in the park. I’m saying given their spate of achievements, level of experience, even down to array of jutsu it would be an unfair match-up. Of course gaara was prodigious, and so was kakashi as well. Difference is kakashi has fought more battles, has more jutsu, is pressumably more intelligent, also most importantly has genjutsu, something gaara might have a hard time against because he no longer has the bijuu anymore. The odds just seem to be against gaara, which akes it an unfair match-up. Undoubtedly gaara would give kakashi a run for his money, but still kakashi would come out tops. I suggested kakashi vs kabuto because orochimaru said kabuto(without his transvetite snakes) was at kakashi’s level. Now kakashi has gained the mangyekou and is kage class, and kabuto has become a ‘sannin’, that match-up would seem ideal based on comparism in the manga/anime.

  44. @lelulaio: Gaara never told kakashi anything specifically on susano’o. Kakashi had prior knowledge of the jutsu already.

  45. @totalitarianhypnosis

    Hmmm…

    That’s the same as saying Kakashi has more experience than Sasuke, but does that mean he would beat Sasuke in battle? He also has more jutsu than Gai, who only uses Taijutsu, but has Gai not been known to defeat Kakashi?

    More jutsu and more experience does not always mean victory. Just look at Deidara. He was quite a bit younger than Kakashi, for example, and he only used one primary jutsu type, albeit in different forms depending on the circumstances (much like Gaara’s sand). And yet, he still gave Kakashi and Naruto a lot of trouble.

    As for a debate with Kakashi vs Kabuto, the problem is that we don’t really have an accurate measure of Kabuto’s new strength yet, other than the fact that he can use Edo Tensei. Maybe once more information about his overall capabilities is revealed, we can have that debate properly further down the line.

    Anyway, I guess it is all a matter of opinion in the end. I put up the debate because I thought it would be interesting. If you don’t feel the same way, then that is fine.

  46. BUBBLITION:

    Nagato: “KA”
    Kakuzu: “ME”
    Deidara: “HA”
    Sasori: “ME”
    Itachi: “HA”

    Caption: “I wonder were kish got this idea from!! o_o

  47. @Totalitarian
    I just assumed that he would of told him about encountering Susano cause sasuke only brought it out at the Kage Summit.
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-35990-4/naruto/chapter-468.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-41103-13/naruto/chapter-474.html

    @Anyone – Possible theory
    Tobi being able to aquire new body parts from flesh down to the chakra, and this imo but Tobi being around the Mizukage who was the Jinchuriki under the Genjutsu and its all unknown to my knowledge what happened to him though I was thinking what was so special about him & all that.

    Notice on the 3rd jinchuriki’s face he has like a scar but its not a scar its his Ninja Tool and its stitched up, Kinda like Kakuza and his hearts possibly with eyes gonna guess and say that he can conceal/store eyes in his face.

    That clears up my itch why he likes eyes so much, Also when that time Kisame had seen Tobi’s Face he said Oh glad to see you Mizukage maybe he could of been referring to the fact that he had the same Ninja tool as the 3rd Jinchuriki.

    Now im not saying it is the 3rd jinchuriki but his technique used or implanted in Zetsu style, could be something?

  48. @Dro: Lol, Dark got to it first. On one page you can see Kakashi’s regular sharingan out. Then Sasuke fires the super speed bow.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/484/05/

    The next page Kakashi has activated the MS and transported the bow into another dimension.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/484/06/

    A bow that was travelling so fast not even Kakashi had the time to dodge and he wasn’t even tired before use of the MS. Gaara’s sand does not form that fast around his body and without the Bijuu it’s not automatic either.

    @Tenrai:

    “The only trump card Kakashi has that completely unique is Kamui and that takes a lot of time and focus to use properly, time Gaara could use to just pwn him” (Tenrai)

    The information above proves Kamui actually does not take a lot of time to focus and aim properly. I also believe Kakashi with over 1,000 jutsu has more than 1 unique trump card. No one else has his raikiri.

    @Coffin debate: LMFAO!!! Prawl got it right. Kenny is definitely in that coffin. You bastards! XD

  49. Great breakdown Tenrai!

    I really think Kakashi would win against Gaara, he can activate Kamui fast, he has Raikiri… I don’t think Gaara can beat him.

  50. if its madara in the coffin, then tobi isnt madara, thats a fact.
    the question is: who is tobi?
    my guess is:
    shisui uchiha. he was called the teleporter too, he had somehting to do with kirigakure, cuz this byakugan remembered shisuis eye-powers and kisame remembers tobi as mizukage.
    i think thats too strange, and shisuis was one of the strongest uchihas so far, it was told that hes even stronger than itachi, so how could itachi have killed him?
    no1 knows anything about shisui and shisuis was only shown 1 time and we ve never seen his real body.
    there are no informations about shisui!!!
    and in fact, shisui is an important character.
    as uchiha he couldve learned about madara and so on.
    the strange things only, that he got no fighting abilities left.
    thats all too confusing and we rly need more information!
    and about THE JUTSU:
    minato was a teleporter too, he used the hirayshin and the fact that sasukes susanoo is even too fast for kakashi can only mean one thing: naruto learns to perfect hirayshin without using seals.
    thats the only way how naruto can beat sasuke.

  51. Salami welcome back dude O_O whereve you been O_O

    so kakashi wins hands down ehhh ME IS HAppy 🙂

  52. i was getting some cigarettes.

    yeah kakashi wins obviously.
    but i dunno if kakashi is on kage-level.

  53. what makes you say that O_o he beats the kazekage hands down lol

  54. dunno, hes lacking some things, he’s not a person who fits right as kage. only cuz he’d win vs a kage doesnt mean hes on a proper lvl.
    its only a natural affinity causing this, not more.
    kakshi would have to be the undoubtedly strongest in konoha.
    i doubt that too much.
    especially seeing jiraiya or danzou fighting.
    im very interested in tsunades abilities, we’ve never seen her full potential, we’ve only seen the 3 sannin fight, and they were all disabled: jiraiya with the drugs of tsunade, wasnt ablte to use sage-mode, oro didnt have his arms and tsunade has been disabled by kabuto.
    in other mangas i have guys i want to see em bashed down, in OP its blackbeard, in bleach its aizen and in naruto, its kabuto.
    he was always an unimportant underling big-talking, he was such a show-off, but seeing him beside “tobi” (yeah ppl shouldnt call him madara these times 😀 ) he appears to be somekinda…untouchable O_o
    but i guess tobi is planning something against kabutoro, cuz of his suspicious view: http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/490-99/7
    his eyes tell me, that he really dislikes his situation.
    tobi did plan nearly everything, but now his plan crumbles!
    at first nagato was beaten by naruto and gave his resurrection to konoha, not to him, sasuke didnt get the oxtopus and the nine-tails getting stronger. the only thing that works out is foolish lil sasuke, he’s tobis personal biju O_O
    i just hope naruto is learning some stuff as great as sage mode, if he controls the kyuubi hes immune against genjutsu, he has more chakra than any other character in this anime and with a perfect hirayshin-jutsu (i think its THE JUTSU) he would be on same or even greater lvl than everybody we know in this manga!
    i just wonder how strong kabuto has grown.

  55. @Salamiyo: Actually we know quite a bit about Shisui.

    1. He was one of the most talented ninja in the Uchiha clan but it never says he was stronger than Itachi who was also one of the most gifted in the Uchiha clan.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/222/07/

    2. Shisui was sent to spy on Itachi.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/222/12/

    3. Shisui’s body was found drowned in a river.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/222/04/

    4. Itachi later admits he killed Shisui to awaken his MS.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/19/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/225/03/ (Though here Itachi never actually says he killed Shisui. o_O)

    5. Shisui’s right arm and eye were taken by Danzo. The eye allowed him to control someone’s thoughts without them noticing.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/459/15/

    There’s some other stuff but I’m thinking about converting it into a post.

  56. Hey guys, new spoiler’s out:

    http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com/2010/02/naruto-491-raw-spoilers-and-predictions.html

    All in all, sounds like a pretty boring chapter except for the ending. Made me picture Jaws but in a much more awesome, rapping MOFO way. One good thing we get…

    *SPOILERS* is the meeting between Bee and Naruto. Can’t wait to see those two train.

    … I have a feeling the island’ll be gone in a couple of days. -___-

  57. I still think it’s Shisui and not Obito, Shisui had a teleportation technique and when Madara was infected with those nano bugs a few issues ago he just crushed his hand or arm that had been infected, which leads me back to thinking shisui arm was attained by Danzo, so ripping off a prostethic limb shouldn’t be a big deal. Just a thought.

  58. The Shisui thing is a cool thought, but timeline wise, the Fight between the Fourth and “Madara” occurred 16 years ago (Naruto is 16). Shisui was killed when Sasuke was a kid, so less than 16 years ago, probably 11 or so. That would have to mean that Shisui fought Naruto’s dad while he still had both eyes (wearing a mask to conceal his identity, somehow lost an eye (maybe was put in genjutsu by Itachi, eye was removed by Danzo, Shisui wakes up and vanashes, later to harvest Obitos right eye to replace the one he lost) lol. Dunno.

  59. @tenrai: Yes kakashi has more expreience than sasuke, but sasuke is a proven prodigy with still even lots of potential, one who carries the hate filled uchiha destiny and one that has progressed really rapidly, from jutsu arsenal to number of battles. Even kakashi hasn’t fought the people sasuke’s fought, or at least we’re not aware if he has. Gai is a proven rival of kakashi, meaning they are that strong to rival themselves. With deidara i believe kakashi was only waiting to introduce his new jutsu and end things in effect. They were not set out for a battle. Deidara was even trying to lure kakashi away so he could face off with naruto alone. Means he had the fear of kakashi in him.

  60. SPOILER –

    Naruto meets Bee next chapter. Didn’t know it’d happen so soon … is Kishi moving the manga along this fast on purpose?

  61. there’s still much to tell and in my opinion, there are too many unanswered questions. i hope we get some answers soon.

  62. yea it cant be shisui, sasuke saw tobi’s face and did not had a surprise expression meaning he did not knew him and i believe sasuke did knew shisui

  63. u believe? u said u believe? in naruto-manga u can believe whatever u want, we need facts and proof!! datte-bayo!!!

  64. u right need proof. but the same way u made a point for being shisui im making a point that he is not! we both need proof. bunshin09 made a point with the time line & danzo had his body parts. madara is probably a person made up of dif. uchihas.

  65. then i ask myself: why does tobi collect sharingan eyes?

  66. a fetish maybe lol

  67. @ Tenrai Senshi,

    So you don’t agree that Tobi’s left eye/left part of the face resembles Izuna’s face more than it resembles Obito’s right eye/right side of the face?
    IMO the faces are almost identical which makes the Tobi = Izuna theory a lot more feasible than the Tobi = Obito theory.

    But who knows, perhaps Tobi really is Madara and the only reason Kishi is keeping us from seeing Tobi’s entire face and throwing in mystery coffins is because he’s laughing his ass off reading all our ridiculous assumptions and theories.

  68. Curses! My secret is out! Now I must hide away in a distant part and sell my organs to put food on the table. Such is life…

    @Adakias: Senshi did the breakdown lol. I can’t play I Spy X__X

    Thanks, Senshi! I’m sure it wasn’t easy.

    Now, on the topic of this debate, I think Gaara is seriously being hollowed out here.I mean he IS the Kazekage. The responsibility of protecting his entire village rests solely on his shoulders. I also sincerely doubt that throughout this time (time-skip and all) he’s done nothing but make sand castles and fill out paper work.

    Let’s not forget his near impregnable steel-like defense. Let’s not forget what happened when Sasuke tried a Chidori on it. Let’s not forget that for Kakashi to effectively warp a person, he would have to focus on them in particular. Let’s also remember that that takes enough focus as is without a shield of sand to go through first. As we’ve recently seen, using Kamui has it’s detrimental fallout, which would leave Gaara with a bucket full of opening to exploit on the occasion that it is used defensively or misses. Let’s not forget that as long as there is earth, Gaara can accumulate sand, effectively leaving him with an endless supply of weaponry and defensive equipment. And no amount of water Kakashi can spit up will change that. At least not until his chakra falls to nought.

    There’s a lot to consider on the topic of this debate, and I’m not trying to undermine Kakashi’s power or abilities. Heaven knows he’s no push-over. Hell, I’m like his biggest fan…besides Ahsan…and Marksman…and the fangirls…yea, I’m totally his #1 fan >_>. But it seems to me that’s exactly what Gaara’s being made out to be. I’m just saying Kakashi’s beating Gaara won’t be as easy an undertaking as most of us may think.

    *runs away from spoilers*

  69. Bubble 1: L is for the way Madara look at me
    Bubble 2: O is for the only option he sees
    Bubble 3: V is very, very extraordinary bombs
    Bubble 4: E is even more than any puppet that you adore can.
    (Itachi’s solo)
    Bubble 5: Love is all that I can give to you
    Love is more than just a game for two
    Two in love can make it
    Take my heart and please don’t break it
    Love was made for me and you

  70. Gaara IS GOING TO WIN THIS FIGHT… AND DO SO VERY EASILY!!!

    I will explain how:

    Gaara uses his sand to re-create something… something that Kakashi could not withstand… something that we’ve SEEN is a WEAKNESS of Kakashi!

    *shut the F*CK up Prawl and tell us how he beats Kakashi*

    GAARA WILL RE-CREATE ICHA-ICHA TACTICS OUT OF SAND!
    KAKASHI WILL SIMPLY DIE OF A MASSIVE NOSEBLEED!

  71. I guess there would be sandy va-jay-jays involved.

  72. @Pickles – Lol my bad for not reading the intro before the first picture… I usually don’t…

    It’s cool, jo. 🙂

    @Tenrai – juxtaposing madara’s mask panel with obito’s panel was genius… the two panels are like mirror images, well, almost…

  73. @pickleses – I’m not hollowing out Gaara at all, he’s an awesome ninja and he’s strong as hell. But it’s not about strength or whether he’s the Kazekage at all, it’s about the fact that Kakashi’s abilities are a perfect counter to Gaara’s.

    Btw, THIS is what happened when Sasuke tried a chidori on Gaara’s Absolute Defence tech:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/114/02/

    As you can see, Sasuke just punched a hole through it and drilled Gaara straight through the shoulder. Earth sucks vs Raiton jutsu. That’s fact. Kakashi’s elemental affinity pwns Gaara’s.

    In regards to Gaara having infinite sand wherever there is earth present, you are wrong. It’s true he can crush nearby earth and turn it into sand, but we know that using such sand requires much more chakra than normal, so he tends to stick to his own chakra-infused sand. We saw him turn the entire battlefield into sand when he fought Kimimaro, but that was when he had a bijuu. He doesn’t have one anymore, so I’d daresay that he couldn’t create and utilize nearly as much earth anymore.

    As to Kakashi using Kamui either defensively or missing, what technique does Gaara possess that can even come close to matching a crossbolt from Susano’o in terms of speed? If he can catch a crossbolt in midflight from Susano’o, how on earth is he gonna miss Gaara? Sand clones won’t work – Kakashi is a sharingan user and is more than capable of tracking the position of the real body and seperating it from the clones. And again, from the speed he was able to swallow that crossbolt, I’d say kakashi would have plenty of time to use it on gaara before he had a chance to raise a sand wall.

  74. Yeah about that 6th coffin… I think it is either Madara. But back to the who is really Tobi thing… I REALLY think that is he brother Izuna since when he implanted Itachi’s sharingan in Sasuke, he asked so many questions. If that was Madara he would already know… but if thats not the case, then also consider, if that was really Madara, wouldn’t he still have a huge grudge on the Senju? but it might be Madara for the simple fact he was sitting on “his” statue at the valley of the end reminiscing the past i believe…

    @BOYRUNS
    You my friend are COMPLETELY WRONG… you have to make sure your facts are right before you say things out your ass like that. WHERE in the manga did it say Orochimaru wasn’t strong enoughto ressurect Minato? First off i don’t think summoning bodies are like YU-GI-OH cards when u need to sacrifice 2 bodies or two cards to summon a stronger one… i don’t think that rule applies to Orochimaru’s summoning game. Secondly, the 3rd stated and we all assume that when Orochimaru summoned the 1st and 2nd hokage and brought that 3rd coffin up that Minato was in that one. BUT the 3rd hokage STOPPED the jutsu and Orochimaru couldn’t complete it. R.I.P 3rd you were awesome!!!!…

    For a second i was about to state the theory that Madara was Itachi’s best friend Shishui??? watever his name was -___-… but that obviously isn’t the answer, seeing that Itachi knew Madara and killed his best friend and watnot around the same time… but it would of been interesting if that was the answer because Madara was VERY interesting in Shishui’s eye… And if you don’t know, just because eye’s match on one side of the head such as Danzou and Madara had the sharingan in their right eye, wouldn’t mean nothing because an eye could be translated from the left to the right, just for future reference of FUTURE THEORIES… eyes are not like putting on a shoe as in the left eye has to be in the left socket and a “right” eye has to be in the right socket.

  75. @Avatar: I wasn’t referring to you in particular. Actually, if you aren’t on of those who say the battle would be a walk in the park for Kakashi, then I wasn’t referring to you at all.

    About the Kamui and you asking how he would miss Gaara, I’ll only ask one: how did he miss Deidara? He was aiming to take him out completely, but could only get an arm. It’s not all about speed. And it isn’t about clones, either.

    The point I was trying to put across is that with a wall or sphere of sand surrounding Gaara, he simply cannot be targeted with Kamui because he can’t be focused on. And if Gaara were to attack and Kakashi were forced to use it to his defense, like I said, and just like in Sasuke’s case, which you may argue is unlikely, then you also need to remember what happened afterward which is that he lost stamina and even staggered making it impossible for him to save Sakura from Alpha Emo. If my memory serves me well, I believe he said something along the lines of “Woohoo! Good thing this happened right after I used Kamui! Now Sakura will die and I will have a perfectly valid excuse for not saving her!! *staggers*” Err, well not exactly that, but you get the idea…>_>. At any rate, one can easily conclude that using Kamui has a nasty immediate side-effect which can just as easily be taken advantage of if, as I said again, he misses or uses it defensively.

    Also, the fact still remains that Gaara CAN make sand from minerals in the earth even if you wish to argue that it would take considerable effort on his part, which is probably erroneous according to this.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/215/11/

    (I hate posting links X__X)

    Yes, Sasuke broke right through it, and then what happened next? He got stuck. Even if he didn’t get stuck, all he managed to do about the defense was punch a hole in it which can easily be refilled. Chidori is another very concentrated attack.

    Actually, I just checked now and saw that it was the Ichibi’s arm holding Sasuke. But even so, once Kakashi pierces the shield with Raikiri, Gaara can immediately harden his sand and snap Kakashi’s humerus like a twig. Much like he did with Deidara, no? My only guess as to why he didn’t to the same with Sasuke was because he was utterly shocked and wanted his mommy. He was kind of a wacko back then. And in like manner, Gaara could have held Sasuke in place without the Ichibi…that is, if course, if he could have done the same for his composure, which I’m sure isn’t a problem now since he’s all cool, calm, and collected. 😎

    If you think about it, Gaara’s defense can very easily turn into offense in a second, allowing for the most deadly counterattacks. So if you ask me, I say short-range is out of the question. And in the end, Kakashi may not have it as easy as some may believe.

    Oh, by the way, did you say Pickleses on purpose? That had me LOLing.

  76. @ Darks and everyone else siding with Kakashi

    Alright, it looks like it is time to take out the big guns. I have to say I am actually enjoying this debate and it is the first good one I have had in a while.

    Anyway, I thought of a good example to support my case with regards to how a battle between Gaara and Kakashi would go. I will be referencing the battle between Deidara and Sasuke, to be exact.

    Now, lets look at the facts. Sasuke had far superior speed to Deidara, a chakra affinity advantage against his earth based jutsu and the sharingan, much like Kakashi. However, even despite all those advantages, he still only barely managed to bring the battle to a draw. Both combatants were ultimately unable to battle in the end and it was only Deidara’s hot headed suicide that killed him.

    So, even though it is ‘logical’ to assume Deidara should have lost, based on all his disadvantages, he didn’t really. He managed to use his ranged abilities to great effect. Sasuke also had the added advantage of the cursed seal and Orochimaru’s recovery rate and he still barely survived. Kakashi doesn’t have that kind of stamina, so he is at a greater disadvantage.

    Anyway, despite that, I would say Kakashi is on the same level as Sasuke was during his battle with Deidara (even though that is pushing it slightly, considering the cursed seal and Orochimaru’s absorption into Sasuke) and Gaara is on about the same level as Deidara, if not a bit stronger now. Like Deidara, Gaara can take to the air and use long range attacks, while keeping out of harms way and like Sasuke, Kakashi has a lightning affinity and would be limited to trying to avoid Gaara’s attacks on the ground.

    The only difference is, Gaara has much better defensive capabilities compared to Deidara and Kakashi has a trump card in the form of Kamui.

    We know chidori has limited range, even when that range is extended with shape manipulation, so the chances are Kakashi won’t even reach Gaara with it. Gaara can also use sand to impede Kakashi’s vision so that Kamui would essentially be rendered useless, seeing as how Kakashi has to be able to see his target in order to hit it. If he misses, he is doomed so i doubt he would just go around spamming the attack trying to hit a target he can’t even see.

    That leaves Kakashi with normal ninjutsu if he wants to be effective at range without killing himself, and if Gaara’s sand can stop Amatarasu, I can assure you it can stop just about any other ninjutsu Kakashi may have.

    Another factor to consider, and one I think most people fail to realize, is that Gaara has an affinity for wind chakra, NOT earth chakra and he is seen using wind release jutsu as well. In fact, his bijuu also originally used wind based chakra and it is likely that Gaara’s sand is actually infused with wind chakra, which is how it may be controlled.

    Sasuke may have been able to pierce his defense with a chidori during the chunin exams when they were both genin, but that could be attributed to the rule of an attack being able to overcome it’s natural weakness if it is significantly powerful enough. However, Gaara is a lot more powerful at this point in the story and he was even able to stop the Raikage’s lighting attack from hitting Sasuke, even though we know how strong the Raikage is and the fact that he was also using the same element. It doesn’t even really matter if Kakashi cannot reach Gaara with a Raikiri the first place and last I recalled, Kakashi can’t fly either.

    Anyway, the last thing to push for Gaara’s victory, is the fact that he could simply turn the battle field into an ocean of sand like he did with Kimimaru. He can break down the soil and use it too his advantage, and no matter how fast Kakashi is, he can’t escape if he is completely surrounded by a tidal wave of Gaara’s making.

    All Gaara needs is one Sabaku Taisō (Desert funeral) to end the battle.

  77. Why can’t both Kakashi and Gaara take up a policy of M.A.D. so they both die and no one wins this stupid debate -_-

  78. Nagato: give me souls
    Kakuzu: give me hearts
    Deidara: give me mouths
    Sasori: give me bodies
    Itachi: give me eyes

    Caption: Zombies on a diet

  79. BUBBLITION:

    Nagato: “Love is”
    Kakuzu: “in”
    Deidara: “the”
    Sasori: “air”
    Itachi: “every time I look at you”

    Caption: “They say love is blind…”

  80. Dragonfly has joined the allience of Tenrai and Pickles to form team….

    FlyingSenshiPickle!!!!!

    We will fight this battle and attain victory!!! ^ ^

    Hellz yea!

    Team kakashi will win O_O
    -Ahsan

  81. Time to wrap up the debate boys O_O

    @pickly poo

    “About the Kamui and you asking how he would miss Gaara, I’ll only ask one: how did he miss Deidara? He was aiming to take him out completely, but could only get an arm. It’s not all about speed. And it isn’t about clones, either.”

    pickles damnit >__>
    go read previous posts on how fast kakashi can use his kamui now. and with what precision . he sucked a missile you know at what speed they travell right ? he sucked it without damaging anything nearby . he also sucked an arrow with same precision and speed . now stop giving examples from the time when kakashi could barely use the tech

    “Also, the fact still remains that Gaara CAN make sand from minerals in the earth even if you wish to argue that it would take considerable effort on his part, which is probably erroneous according to this.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/215/11/
    again you are giving an exxample of before …. that time he had a freakin biju so had excess to humungous amount of chakra …. now he only has his own chakra so using that sound will take a huge toll on him and even this thing darks has already stated in his post which was meant for you actually X___X go read the posts !!!
    Darks said
    “In regards to Gaara having infinite sand wherever there is earth present, you are wrong. It’s true he can crush nearby earth and turn it into sand, but we know that using such sand requires much more chakra than normal, so he tends to stick to his own chakra-infused sand. We saw him turn the entire battlefield into sand when he fought Kimimaro, but that was when he had a bijuu. He doesn’t have one anymore, so I’d daresay that he couldn’t create and utilize nearly as much earth anymore.”

    “Yes, Sasuke broke right through it, and then what happened next? He got stuck. Even if he didn’t get stuck, all he managed to do about the defense was punch a hole in it which can easily be refilled. Chidori is another very concentrated attack.
    Actually, I just checked now and saw that it was the Ichibi’s arm holding Sasuke. But even so, once Kakashi pierces the shield with Raikiri, Gaara can immediately harden his sand and snap Kakashi’s humerus like a twig. ”

    yes sasugay*** did broke right through it and got stuck but he then simply used the chidori again to get out 😛

    now one thing you dont get here is there is a diffrenece between chidori and raikiri ….. raikiri can cut lightning itself 😀
    so yeh kakashi can do alot more than a hole and if kakashi doesnt turn of the raikiri like sasugay turned off his chidori sand will keep getting pwned and kakashi has alot of variables in his raikiri he can split it in two hands he can make a wolf out of it and send it forward while controlling it from back

    and about you caliming that kakashi would have to use kamui for defense is wrong as well . you remember the battle with pein (10000X stronger than gara)… that guy shot missiles out of his ass but kakashi didnt need to use kamui for his defense but needed it to save that fatass choji he needed to use it against the chakra arrow which he couldnt physically dodge … now you can imagine the speed at which it would be coming i dont think as darks said before that gara has an attack which puts kakashi in such aa position

    @ on to tenai O_O

    a very gara favoured arguments i see some similar loop holes in your arguments tooo O_O mauhahahahahahaha

    “Another factor to consider, and one I think most people fail to realize, is that Gaara has an affinity for wind chakra, NOT earth chakra and he is seen using wind release jutsu as well. In fact, his bijuu also originally used wind based chakra and it is likely that Gaara’s sand is actually infused with wind chakra, which is how it may be controlled.”

    kakashi: Firestyle : fire dragon jutsu !!!!

    gara: whyyy whyyy T_T why is my sand falling to the ground T_T live my sand live T_T you are my only friend T_T please dont die on me T_T

    lol so that pretty much sums it up

    “Sasuke may have been able to pierce his defense with a chidori during the chunin exams when they were both genin, but that could be attributed to the rule of an attack being able to overcome it’s natural weakness if it is significantly powerful enough. However, Gaara is a lot more powerful at this point in the story”

    EVEN (even though i doubt it ) chidori cant pierce gara’s sand now i dont understand how ………..
    i think you keep forgetting kakashi uses raikiri not the children’s tech chidori…. raikiri can cut through anything period.

    “Anyway, the last thing to push for Gaara’s victory, is the fact that he could simply turn the battle field into an ocean of sand like he did with Kimimaru. He can break down the soil and use it too his advantage, and no matter how fast Kakashi is, he can’t escape if he is completely surrounded by a tidal wave of Gaara’s makin”

    the same argument as answered above and 2 times before this post as well ^^

    to end this debate id just like to add that kakashi has the sharingan as well which he can use to avoid any Long range attacks by gara and which will also offer him an edge if it comes to hand to hand ( IF ) furthermore kakashi has earth manipulation and has mastered it to the level of a master.i wonder how that would go gara trying to make earth to sand and kakashi giving the earth shapes and like that lol . and furthermore kakashi has fooled awesome ninja like PEIN AND ITACHI ( the two most power full do jutsu holders) with his shawdow clones . he can simply make gara use the long range attacks on the shawdow clone and sneak up a raikiri in the heart or something like fire jutsu as wind is weak against fire then use a raikiri or kamui to finish gara off

    and im not saying it would be easy

    im saying kakashi would win 🙂

  82. @Ahsan

    You forget, when Kakashi uses the sharingan it drains his stamina and chakra. The longer he uses it, the closer he comes to passing out like a rag doll.

    As for your statement about fire jutsu, Gaara’s sand, unlike wind, is still solid. It has stopped explosives at point blank range before, explosives that also have fire in them, so how is that any different. It also stopped Amatarasu, the undying black flames from hell. If it can stop those flames, it can stop any flames. That was actually a very odd argument and I have no idea how Gaara’s sand would suddenly die after being touched by flames.

    You are also assuming too much in your argument. You are assuming Gaara doesn’t have as much chakra, even though we know that seals often allow the Bijuu’s chakra to leak into their host, increasing their chakra reserves. Even without his Bijuu, Gaara would still have a lot of chakra.

    If he can cover an entire village with a sand defense, I hardly think he will struggle with a small battlefield.

    Besides, as seen with the Raikage and Kisame, you don’t need a bijuu to have an abnormally large chakra pool.

    As for Kakashi’s Raikiri being stronger than Sasuke’s chidori, that is a completely unfounded statement. I think your love of Kakashi is overshadowing logic right now. They are exactly the same technique, Chidori was just the original name before Kakashi renamed it to Raikiri. If anything, Sasuke is just more proficient with it now than Kakashi is, but there is nowhere in the manga where it says Raikiri is any different from or more powerful than Chidori.

  83. Acttually ten you are the one assuming i stated facts nothing more … you are trying to assume that gara somehow has chakra equal to that of raikage
    Sharingan drains chakra you tend to forget how much he has improved with it …. in the bell test held soooo long ago he had the sharingan on all day 😛
    raikiri is stronger far stronger than chidori … its a fact go read the manga 🙂

    your love for gara has taken over you O_O O_O O_O O_O O_O O_O O_O O_O O_O O_0 O_O

  84. @Ahsan

    Um… where did I say he had equal chakra to the Raikage? I said it doesn’t take a Bijuu to have a large chakra reserve and I just used the Raikage as an example.

    And give me a link where it says Raikiri is stronger and I will believe you. Until then it’s a pointless statement.

  85. @Tenrai – your Deidara/Gaara example is flawed for several reasons. Firstly, Deidara PREPARED for his fight with Sasuke by having the entire battlefield laden with his explosive clay stuff, effectively staging a fight in a minefield where everything was to his advantage. You cannot tell me that this had little to no effect on the final outcome. Secondly, Deidara’s jutsu is VASTLY different to that of Gaara’s. In fact you say so yourself: Gaara doesn’t have an Earth affinity, he has a Wind affinity. If that is so, why would you compare the two fights and then contradict yourself? And if I remember correctly, that entire fight was pure Deidara pwnage. Sasuke used a variety of lightning based jutsu (from chidori senbon in Deidara’s smaller C1 charges, to an internal variation of a Chidori Nagashi) to negate basically everything Deidara threw at him. Deidara spent most of the match either screaming or throwing a tantrum cos everything he tried was failing. He had to kill himself in order to really do anything that Sasuke couldn’t counter, and even THAT failed. So sorry, buddy, but that example sucked. 

    Now we aren’t basing our point (ie Kakashi winning) on only their nature chakra types, but on their jutsu list, statistics, and tools at their disposal. Statistically speaking, Kakashi trumps Gaara in almost every aspect bar stamina. He is faster, his jutsu is just as powerful, and he has a Sharingan which, as Ahsan pointed out, can be left active for quite an extended period of time. Gaara stands completely still when he fights, is not nearly as strategically intelligent as Kakashi (refer to stats links below), and is also Bijuu-less. How you can say that him lacking his bijuu is not an impediment is beyond me.

    One thing you guys aren’t taking in (or are choosing to ignore) is the speed at which Kakashi has demonstrated to be able to use Kamui. If you refer to my link above, Kakashi used Kamui on a rapidly moving object in the space of time it took him to blink his eyelid. He didn’t even have time to move himself out of the way, and we all know how fast Kakashi is. How on earth can he miss against a stationary enemy? I don’t accept Gaara using his sand to obscure Kakashi’s vision. One, Gaara would be making himself blind as well. Two, Kakashi has the enhanced sight of a Sharingan user. Three, I have yet to see Gaara use such a technique in such a way, so it’s impossible to tell how effective it would be against Kakashi and a fully-developed Sharingan. Stick to known jutsu only, please. 

    Sure, Gaara can raise a protective wall infront of him to block Kakashi’s line of sight, but are you really trying to tell me that he could pull one up (or turn an entire battle field to sand for that matter) faster than Kakashi can make his Sharingan twirl and suck him up to another dimension?

    Someone said that it’s not about speed in this match up. You are wrong. Speed can make all the difference in any fight, especially with Kakashi’s fighting style. 

    Raikiri vs Chidori. Chidori is an a-rank jutsu, Raikiri an s-rank. Raikiri is a stronger, more concentrated form of chidori. They are different jutsu, dude.

    And don’t even get me started on the vote count.

    No matter what anyone says, the cards are stacked in Kakashi’s favour. Kalashi would win. And quickly.

    References:

    Gaara Stats – http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Gaara 
    Kakashi Stats – http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Hatake_Kakashi  
    Chidori Description – http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori 
    Raikiri Description – http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_Cutter 

  86. @Ahsan: Ahsan, I think you’re the one who really should read my own post, and more carefully.

    First of all, I stated very clearly that speed does not matter at all. And I also gave reason why, which remains uncountered. There are other reasons, but I’ll stay my tongue, since that whole endeavor most likely could and would be pointless…

    “That time he had a freakin biju”

    Yes, he had a freakin’ Bijuu, but he didn’t need his freakin’ Bijuu because it was so freakin’ easy to make freakin’ sand from the freakin’ earth in the first freakin’ place. See what I freakin’ mean? I’d say more, but again, that could be freakin’ pointless…>_>

    I’m sorry, Raikiri is stronger than Chidori? Excuse me for my ‘ignorance’, Ahsany, but I’d really love a link (and I’m not talking about Narutopedia). I would say more, but once again, like this entire post, it could just be pointless X__X.

  87. @Pickleseses! – lol yes it was intentional. And did you just skip over my entire last post? -_-

    oh and I was thinking, if in the case gaara manages to encase himself inside a sphere of Absolute Defense sand, why can’t he just switch targets and attempt to warp the entire ball of sand with Gaara still inside?

  88. Wow, this debate is really heating up thanks to Ahsan and Pickles… 0_0

    BUBBLE 1(order from left to right): F is for friends…
    BUBBLE 2: who do stuff together…
    BUBBLE 3: U is for U and me…
    BUBBLE 4: N is for N-E where and N-E time at all…
    BUBBLE 5: Down here in the deep blue sea!

    Tenrai, Pickles and Flex are friends who do stuff together… O_O

  89. Ok, I havent read the previous comments so I may just be repeating what someone else has said. Anyway…
    What if madara is never actually there when we see him, kind of like when the members of Akatsuki project themselves, except done better. And if that is true, then he could be almost as old as he wants, but because he is not required to move he can still live on.
    Anyway…

  90. Second bubble, Plankton’s version.

    BUBBLE 1: F is for fire that burns down the whole town…
    BUBBLE 2: U is for uranium…
    BUBBLE 3: BOMBS!
    BUBBLE 4: N is for…
    BUBBLE 5: no survivors…

    Too bad Plankton didn’t finish the song.

  91. Bubble contest:

    BUBBLE 1: What
    BUBBLE 2: A
    BUBBLE 3: Sh*t
    BUBBLE 4: Plot
    BUBBLE 5: Twist

  92. @DarkAvatar

    My reference to Deidara was more to prove that even when someone has all the disadvantages on paper, it doesn’t mean they are actually going to lose.

    And I wasn’t basing who would win just on chakra types, etc. I gave an entire scenario of how a battle could play out between them, just for effect. As for your comment on Kamui, I doubt Kakashi would just bring it out right at the beginning of a battle. It is a trump card and one that could kill him and actually has in the past. So unless he wants to die faster, he would avoid it unless there was no other choice. By then, Gaara would already be in a position to avoid it and it would be too late.

    Posting stats is also a bit pointless, especially when you consider that battles are determined by more than just numbers on paper. In fact, if you only determined the winner of a battle using stats, you would find many oddities.

    Gaara just has the right abilities to give Kakashi trouble and they both excel in different fields, so comparing them that way is a bit flawed. I mean look, Naruto’s overall stats are lower than Kakashi’s and Gaara’s according to that site, but can you honestly tell me Kakashi would beat Naruto as he is now? Actually, those stats show Naruto as being weaker than a lot of people that we know he is definitely stronger than. They almost seem outdated.

    http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Uzumaki_Naruto-1

    In fact, if you look at more of those stats, Itachi is apparently weaker than Jiraiya as well even though Orochimaru, in the manga, was defeated easily by Itachi and even feared him. Yet Orochimaru and Jiraiya fought on the same level during the three way sannin battle.

    http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Jiraiya
    http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Uchiha_Itachi

    Stats are often a flawed reference point and they also take the fun out of debating. Your other comments are cool to debate against because they actually carry more interest and I enjoy a good debate, but to me, you only start posting stats when you have no other way out or if you are losing badly. (Am not saying you are, because you are actually one of the better debaters here that I like to go up against, but that is just my feeling).

    Anyway, once again I will reference the manga instead of referring to wiki, which is sometimes flawed due to the fact that a lot of the information in it is fan based (and I can use a few examples to support this). This is Gai’s explanation of Raikiri and Chidori…

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/113/15/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/114/03/

    See, according the the manga, (especially the second link) they are exactly the same technique. Chidori only earned the nickname Raikiri, because Kakashi apparently cut a lightning bolt with it (which judging by everyone’s reaction, is also just a legend). Other than that, there is no difference between the two.

    Fans like to make a big thing out of nothing so although wiki is a great source of info, not all of that information is 100% accurate. If you want the facts, read the manga.

    Anyway, thanks for keeping up the good debate. ^ ^

  93. @ Tenrai “In fact, if you look at more of those stats, Itachi is apparently weaker than Jiraiya as well even though Orochimaru, in the manga, was defeated easily by Itachi and even feared him. Yet Orochimaru and Jiraiya fought on the same level during the three way sannin battle.”

    Although it seemed like Jiraiya and Orochimaru were on the same level that was probably due to that fact that Jiraiya was weakened with drugs before the battle begun with the help of Tsunade. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/161/18/ 🙂

    Although to be fair we never did see an all out fight between Jiraiya and Orochimaru. -.-

  94. @kingkhaos

    Jiraiya was weakened on drugs, yes, but at least he could still use ninjutsu. Orochimaru had his hands sealed so he couldn’t use any jutsu and he was in constant agony.

    So both of them were hindered. I already took that into consideration.

  95. @Tenrai – With your point about Kamui, perhaps it seems unlikely that he would use it straight off the bat, but it’s also just as unlikely that this fight would play out the sane as basically every other fight they’ve ever had ie Gaara standing still in the middle of the room while his opponent flies around him, aiming kicks at a moving cloud of sand. Both know the extent of each others abilities, so Kakashi KNOWS that using taijutsu (or pulling out his flashiest DDR moves) will fail. Kakashi’s fighting style has always been about either outsmarting/outmaneuvring his opposition (ie Kakashi vs Zabuza) or getting the drop on them before they can react (ie Kakashi vs Kakuzu). The man’s a true ninja in the sense of the word.

    So he knows that standard taijutsu will fail, he knows that Gaara’s sand defense will protect him from most other ninjutsu. Why wouldn’t he use Kamui off the bat? He’s been known to try it before when he felt that options were limited (ie. Kakashi threatening to kill Madara with it), and I don’t see why he’d put his foot on the brakes in this scenario.

    Another point which I forgot to mention earlier is Gaara’s susceptibility to genjutsu. He no longer has a bijuu to protect him from it, and Kakashi is well versed in the area. And unlike Gai (who can predict his enemy’s movement by staring at his opponents feet…I don’t get it either, but hey, it’s true. Deal with it), he has to be watching his opponent to attack. I believe it was said during the chuunin exams that it was Shukaku who manipulated the sand to protect Gaara from all angles, and with it gone, I would assume that his sand defense thing is no longer automatic.

    I’m hardly losing lol, I like to use stats as they come from the official naruto databooks and can’t be swept aside as nothing. All inconsistencies with OTHER characters aside, I’m referencing Kakashi’s and Gaara’s pages only. According to Kishimoto, Kakashi is faster, just as powerful, more intelligent, and more well-rounded in general. Stats are just as much fact as the manga y’know and we’ve been using them in debates as far back as I can remember, but I’ll refrain from using them if you don’t want them. Just don’t be so quick to dismiss them in future.

  96. @Dragon: Someone needs to lay off the Spongebob…>_>

    @Avatar: Lol, I wasn’t ignoring you, I was just working on that reply to Ahsan when you post was probably made so I didn’t see until I made mine.

    Anyhow, Senshi seems to have addressed his side, so I’m gonna take mine.

    It seems you guys really like this Kamui speed business a lot, but with thorough examination, the fact that it isn’t as fast as you may believe is clear as day. Let’s review…

    As with any other jutsu, activation is almost immediate (that is after all the hand seals, and I’m almost certain Kakashi already had his MS prepared before reaching Sasuke’s location so he didn’t have to take so much time as when he was chasing Deidara and could activate it at any time). And what you guys are doing is mistaking the speed of activation with the speed at which Kamui ‘absorbs’ and teleports objects. Before you chew me alive, let me explain.

    The reason is exactly what you’ve been saying all this time, and that is: Sasuke’s arrows are incredibly fast. About the same can be said of Laser Head’s missile. Because they are so immensely fast and move in a very linear fashion, it’s also immensely easy and equally fast for Kakashi to warp them. Why? It’s simple. All he has to do is activate his Kamui in the path of the object moving in a straight line, and with it’s own incredible speed, it’ll jet itself straight into Timbuktu.

    I’ll rephrase. Because those projectiles flew in a straight line, all Kakashi had to do was activate the technique in their line of movement and allow them fly themselves into another dimension with their own speed and not the speed of the technique’s ‘absorption’.

    So if the moving object were to be able to maneuver itself and move in a zig-zag manner, it would be so much more difficult to focus on and warp it. And since it wouldn’t be moving itself through the ‘portal’, like Sasuke’s arrow and Pein’s missile, then it would have to be ‘absorbed’ by force and drawn through the ‘portal’ rather than just moving in by itself, which is nowhere near as fast. And that’s exactly what Deidara’s case was like, which can be used to further buttress my point. If ‘forced absorption’ (as I would term it) were as fast as your side assumes, then why did Kakashi have such a hard time taking out Deidara with it? It’s exactly like I said.

    We all know Gaara can suspend himself in the air and navigate in any direction with his sand as he so pleases, and effectively ‘dodge’ Kamui. And in addition since we now know Kamui does not ‘forcefully absorb’ with astronomical speed, it would also be easy for Gaara to engage his shield once the jutsu is activated and effectively ‘block’ it by obscuring Kakashi’s line of sight.

    And once either of these happens, whcih is very possible and highly likely, Kakashi would be left more open than…I’ll shut up now X__X.

    If you want to say that Gaara would be rendered blind by his shield, take a look at this.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/113/01/

    By the way, I’m totally adopting Pickleseseses as my new pseudonym. 😉

  97. @ Tenrai

    Fair point, Jiraiya probably still could use ninjutsu although he had a pitiful amount of chakra to do so. We could argue and banter about specifics but its probably best to say they were both hindered and leave it at that.

    It still would be awesome to see an even, all-out fight between those two, without hindrances from either person. Do I smell another debate? 🙂

  98. Omg I just realised how many spelling mistakes I made in my last reply. My gawd I’m tired. -_-

  99. @kingkhaos

    Perhaps that will be a good future debate. ^ ^

    @DarkAvatar

    As I said, I am not saying that you are losing, but you cannot ignore the inconsistencies of the stats for some characters and not for others. Those stats are also not necessarily 100% up to date with this very point in the manga (Naruto’s stats definitely suggest that much), so although they may have been accurate a while ago, that may no longer be the case.

    My post pointing out the flaw of Raikiri and chidori being seen as separate jutsu on Wiki even though the manga clearly states they are the same is a good example of such inconsistencies.

    As for Gaara being vulnerable to genjutsu, we don’t actually know if he is that vulnerable. If it was that easy to just win with Genjutsu, every shinbobi would just use that and nothing else. Kakashi could use Genjutsu, yes, but he was nowhere near the level of Itachi. We have seen characters breaking genjutsu before, sometimes quite easily. We saw Sakura and Shikamaru both breaking a powerful genjutsu during the chunin exams when other chunin and jounin were caught in it.

    Unless you are talking about Tsukyomi, I doubt Gaara, who is a kage, would fall for a genjutsu so easily or even at all. Kakashi never used them as much anyway, compared to the likes of Itachi or Kurenai. He didn’t even try to use one against Deidara, even though it would be considered a safer option than using Kamui, which he used instead.

    Either way, it would be a cool battle to watch. It is by no means easy for either combatant, but I just want people to be sure that Gaara is by no means set to just lose the battle based on some of the factors people have brought up. I just let out a deep sigh every time someone says “Kakashi would obviously (key word right there) win”, without giving it real thought. The more you look into it, though, the less easier it seems for Kakashi.

    My ultimate point is, the battle wouldn’t be as one-sided as some people have tried to make it out to be.

  100. @pickleseseseseseseses!!! (…..eses.) – your argument makes sense and I was able to follow it through (which is surprising, seeing as I’m sick as a dog and tired as hell), but you forget one thing: Kakashi can’t just open a portal in the path that a projectile takes. As even you have stated in your arguments, Kakashi has to focus his gaze on an object before he can teleport it. You’re suggesting that he can just open a teleportation gate wherever he chooses to and hope that the projectile makes its own way through.

    So lemme ask you to try something: I want you to focus your gaze on an empty space in front of you. Not on an object (ie a pen, keyboard, spot on the wall or even a dust particle), just try and focus your gaze on a small patch of thin air. As you’ll find out, it’s impossible to do with any degree of accuracy.

    I wonder if anyone can follow MY example…prolly not. Shouldn’t debate when sleep deprived…but…can’t…help…myself………….

  101. Omg I just re-read my last post and am appalled at how little sense it made. Did anyone else other than me make any sense of it?

  102. @DarkAvatar

    LOL! Actually, it did in a weird way. Don’t worry, your point isn’t that confusing. I think you are just tired. 😉

    Now’s the perfect chance for me to eat you. @__@

    *Uses genjutsu on Darks and lulls him into a deep sleep*

  103. Ok let me just stick to what definitely makes senseto ppl.

    Pickles(eseseseses…..es…eses. es.), you may be right with your explanation, however it is speculation and nothing more. It is specifically stated in the manga that it’s whatever Kakashi focuses on that gets teleported, so then it’s safe to assume that he’s focusing on a speeding crossbow bolt and not on a space of empty air in front of it. Please don’t make me fond the link.

    As to why he can use it so much better than he could with Deidara, the reason is simple: he’s become far more adept in using Kamui than he was at the time. You have to consider character development in this debate. Alot has haopened since he fought Deidara, and Kakashi is alot stronger than he was. Perfect example of this is Naruto. At the time Kakashi was fighting Deidara, Naruto was going balistic with his bijuu and releasing tails everywhere he went. Timeskip all the way to now, and you’ll find a completely different Naruto.

  104. O_O

    *slathers self in taste-deterrent in hopes that it’ll put tenrai off “eating” me…* Senshi will eat that, too @__@

    *resists urge to make gay jokes* Oh, God, we’re completely on the same boat here lol

    *looks up and realises he’s already failed*

    *likes that there are three sets of asterisks in this post, as three is an awesome number*

    *realises that by posting what he just did, it’s no longer just 3 posts, but 5. But I like the number five better than three so it’s no big deal…needs sleep. And desperately.* Definitely…>_>

    My reply will be waiting. =P

    -Pickles

  105. Nice Breakdown Tenria.

    Now, on to the debate of things. I see kakashi has enivitable found his way agaisnt a particular opponent someone may have felt he couldnt defeat. T__T

    Lets Stack up the stats here. Gaara’s earth affinity (Sand to be specific.) is weak agaisnt the nature manipulation or affinities. (lightning in this case.) Experience and speed go to the copy ninja of course.

    Gaara has the ultimate defense and that fits perfectly with his long range attacks. Its safe to assume kakashi has a good defense and good arsenal of long range attacks Due to the 1000 techniques he has at his disposal.

    What everyone seems to be Underestimating is the Kamui technique kakashi posses. I have heard its too slow, or kakashi cant hit a moving target, and he has to focus long enough on a target to use it. Wow, if that were the case, that particular jistu would be completely useless in battle according to you guys.

    Just thought i would remind you guys that kakashi can hit a moving target. Need an example? Well here you go. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/424/16/

    Omg a missle, and its moving! A moving Target! O_O
    Need another eample? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/02/
    Look at the explosion. Its expanding in ALL directions. If you doubt this, you need to do some research.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/03/

    OMG! Kakashi warps yet another expanding/moving target with his eye. O_O *gasp*

    -___-

    With this point being made, kakashi would be able to capture or catch gaara with this technique. And focusing on gaara shouldnt take that long at all. Maybe about half a second at the most. Need an example? Ill give you two. XD http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/423/17/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/484/06/

    In the first, we have kakashi warping a nail,a very small object, something you need to strain to focus on and see (let alone the fact its moving) and its at close range. VERY close range. Yet he still has enough time to not only focus on it, but warp it as well.

    Then we have him warping a arrow as darks brought out in his previous arguments no one of the opposing team seems to read. >_>
    Mind you, this attack was so fast, not even danzo could dodge it; as in move out of the way. And danzou already knew it was coming.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/10/

    So unless you can move like Gai, fuse with wood, or create a clone that would be able to trick a sharingan user from the real opponent, Dodging Kamui in gaara’s case, is almost impossible. Lets take into account that gaara does not know about the attack to begin with.

    These are just two of the many reasons why i believe kakashi would win this battle in the end. I have others, but i will wait for a proper retort to my post before i continue.

  106. I KNEW this would happen.
    Everytime we put Kakashi into a ‘VS’ match, the extraordinary posts of epic length control the blog…

    I VOTE THAT KAKASHI NEED NEVER ‘VERSUS’ ANYONE AGAIN!

    As SUBSTITUTE for this debate, I OFFER up the following:

    Iruka, TenTen and Konohamaru VS Gaara

    ENJOY THE BLOODBATH!

  107. @Avatar: I made sure I had fact to back up my claim and that is precisely why I raised the issue of Deidara’s pursuit. With that simple, irrefutable point, combined with the one I pointed out about the objects moving in a straight line, I believe my conclusion is safe enough until proven differently. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have posted it in the first place, had it been nothing more than speculation.

    One thing you’re forgetting is that Kakashi wasn’t using a regular eye. It was the Sharingan, and you yourself touched on its enhanced optics.

    Now, besides, if you wouldn’t like to take in just that, I’ll say this. Kakashi could very, very easily had focused his gaze at the tip of the arrow or missile. And as such, it would still use its own speed to fly in, and not that of ‘forced absorption’, which as I said, is nowhere near as fast, going by Deidara’s pursuit. Now with a normal eye, this feat could very well be impossible, but again, he was using a Sharingan. And with it, no matter how fast the object moving, Kakashi can read its movement whether or not his body is fast enough to react by dodging, and very easily focus his gaze at the very tip with considerable precision, I might add.

    About the whole Kamui improvement, I’ll say this. To improve a technique, it would have to be used perpetually, time and time again to perfection, no? With Kakashi, he uses it once and he ends up bed-ridden for weeks. Yea, I’m doubting he’s doing any perfecting with that…

    I won’t even begin to list the implications, I’m sure you get the point.

    @Marks: If you read the other comments above more carefully, you’ll see that most of the points you raise have already been addressed. Oh, and no one said anything about Kakashi not being able to warp a moving object. Quite the opposite, actually. So again, you just refer to the comments up top. 😉

    Picklesesesesesgaarawinseseseses out! >_>

  108. @Prawl

    I fully support your idea though I am having quite a bit fun reading everyone’s long ass essays.

    Lets light up the fire a bit,shall I. In my opinion everyone is overlooking a drawback Kakashi has.It is his endurance…or lack of thereof. It doesn’t matter how may jutsus he has or how fast,smart or whatever he is if he can’t last for long. Since Gaara is a kage level ninja this fight is bound to last for quite a bit and in the end guess who is going to be exhausted.Kakashi can use Kamui, of course, but only as a last resort, so the question here is will he have enough chakra to use it. If Gaara can keep him busy with his sand it will be fairly easy to tire Kakashi and Kamui, in my opinion can be easy to counter.All you need is a double attack-one to take the full force of Kamui and one to hit, preferably in his flank. Gaara can just split in two one of those sand tentacles he likes to use so much. I am not saying it will definitely hit but if it makes Kakashi miss I dare say this fight will be quickly over.

  109. Pickles(es x20) – just read over Itachi’s fight with Sasuke, and saw Itachi using Amaterasu on thin air and moving it around. Perhaps the Sharingan CAN focus on nothing…though itachi does have two full sharingan. That may have had something to do with it. Kakashi only has one and an ordinary eye, which may make it harder/impossible, but there’s no way I can debate that. I’ll concede that point.

    As to him not being able to perfect Kamui, that’s just wrong. He’s shown the ability to use Kamui and still be able to take a run at Sasuke (as opposed to collapsing into a hospital bed for weeks) and as for him being able to absorb flying objects faster because they “force” themselves into Kakashi’s wormhole just isnt enough to convince me that he’d have any trouble sucking up Gaara. Regardless of whether your theory is correct (and there’s no way to prove that it is, which is your argument’s biggest problem), the fact remains that Kakashi CAN absorb an object faster than even a speeding crossbow bolt can fly, and because of that fact, he would have no trouble taking out Gaara, even if he decided to fly away and dodge. Deidara was flying around, and Kakashi still managed to take off an arm on his first time using the technique. If you don’t want to accept the fact that me and 74% of WRA believe that Kakashi’s enhanced Kamui tech could take out Gaara then so be it, I can’t help you there.

  110. Perhaps “improved kamui tech” is more correct than “enhanced kamui tech” that I wrote in my last post. You got my meaning right? Right!? Lol

  111. manga is out!

  112. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/491-125/1

  113. Great chapter but that doesn’t change the fact Kishi is getting lazy. I mean comeon, 15 pages. This is proposterous even for him. If it wasn’t for free I would have felt cheated and deeply insulted…fortunately I don’t 😛

  114. You know what, your right pickles. No one said kakashi couldnt warp a moving object. So i guess if gaara decides to move (his body being the object) his ass is still screwd. >_>

    And your theory about kakashi placing a warp whole before the tip of the arrow or nail is just a theory, something that you cant prove. So in light of that fact, lets use facts that we already know, instead of theories that cant be proven, besides the theory foreplaying the outcome of the battle.

    Now pickles, you said: And as such, it would still use its own speed to fly in, and not that of ‘forced absorption’, which as I said, is nowhere near as fast, going by Deidara’s pursuit.

    Last i checked, when kakashi used his Kamui agianst Diedera, it was one of the first times he ever used it. Kakashi even states this. Do you ned a link? Now its safe to assume that kakashi has inhanced or drastically improved since then, as he was ready to use it agaisnt Tobi(who btw, can teleport much faster then Diedara’s flying thingy). >_> And i still fail to see how your diedara point somehow applys to kakashi warping an explosion, which expands pretty fast, probably faster the diedara’s flying, and extends in ALL directions at once. Not just in one straight line, as ive heard so many refer to.

    @to63to In my opinion, everyone blows out of portion kakashi stamina and chakra level. Answer me this! When has kakashi EVER run out of chakra in the heat of a battle on his own accord? Not including the pain battle because that was not on his own accord and that chakra could have been used differently, other then saving choji’s tail with it. Oh and lets not forget, kakashi is on a kage level as well 😉

  115. @ SOME OF YOU BOYS
    you all write waaaay too much… I couldn’t keep up with this debate anymore *stabs self in eye after reading so much* X_____o

    @Shinobimadness
    LOL I love your bubble entry!!!! 5 GUYS FTEW! damn that place is good.

  116. this chapter wasn’t as great as the last few ones but i guess it was productive in it’s own way because Bee and Naruto meet.
    Other than that it was a little boring.

  117. 3 of the 15 pages in this issue were comprised of two pages, so it was the usual 17-18, just when it was uploaded they didn’t incorporate that into the page numbers.

  118. CRACK-TACULAR SPOILERS!

    CHAPTER 492: THE ODD COUPLE

    KILLERBEE: DAMMIT NARUTO! You got peanut butter in my chocolate!

    NARUTO: DAMMIT BEE! You got chocolate in my peanut butter!

    YAMATO: I’ll take care of it boys, just smear it on this! Wood Release!
    *pants unzip by themselves*

    NARUTO and BEE: WTF!

    KISAME (inside Samehada): Please god let me die, I am sooo hungry, I’ve been in this f*ckin sword for 6 weeks now!

  119. OOPS! I meant CHAPTER 492!!!!

    -all fixed for ya, buddy 😀
    Dark

  120. LMAO! XD I’ve been missing out on such a fun debate but it was nice to read through everyone’s essays instead of my own for a change. >(0_-)> Time to make an essay. >_>

    Let’s hit up on some points and I’m going to do them quickly…as possible. +_+

    1. Kakashi would not use Kamui right off the bat? Really? What about Kakashi vs. Deidara? What was the first technique Kakashi used on him?

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-276/page004.html

    Hmm…maybe that example is to old. How about a recent chapter then? What was the first tech Kakashi tried to use on Madara?

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/487-75/5

    To doubt Kakashi would use it right off the bat when he’s already done so twice before is all fine and dandy, but there’s proof enough right there he can very much likely do it.

    2. How Gaara fights a ground opponent. Will he fly?

    When has he ever flown when fighting? Once, and that was against another flying opponent (Deidara). In 100% of his other battles against grounded opponents what has Gaara done?

    >http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-111/page017.html

    He stands there all cool like. Of course there was one instance he did take to the air when fighting Kimimaro but that was after Kimimaro’s “final” attack and Gaara thought the battle was over. Gaara did not fight Kimimaro in the air.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-217/page010.html

    So what exactly are the chances Gaara would take to the air when fighting Kakashi when all of his other ground fights he’s fought on the ground? In other words there’s a 95% chance Gaara will not be flying around but instead standing there on the ground allowing Kakashi to take him out with the MS.

    3. Kakashi’s obvious chakra and MS improvement. Remember when Kakashi was first using his MS? How long it took him to activate it and he complained it was because of his chakra supply.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-275/page018.html

    Lol, now look how fast he can activate it from the regular sharingan to the MS. In the span it takes the crossbow Sasuke already shot at him to reach his body and they’re so close to each other.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/484-60/6
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/484-60/7

    Not to mention Kakashi admits to himself not having great control over it back then. It was his first time using it against an opponent.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-276/page010.html

    If this does not show Kakashi’s great chakra and MS improvement then there’s no point in even citing manga anymore. ~_~

    4. Chidori vs. Raikiri

    I don’t know when info from the data book became in doubt as I thought this was the case only for fillers. True, stats can be outdated but the rank of a technique stays the same unless upgraded. S is the highest rank and that’s what the official data book says Kakashi’s raikiri is at. The chidori is listed at A. Since wiki is a fan based site and using info from there is doubtful (Completely agree and why I never use info from any wiki XD) I took the pages straight from the databook.

    http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2505/db1225raikirisyazx3df.jpg (Kakashi’s chidori cut a lighting bolt not Sasuke’s chidori. This is why Kakashi’s tech donned the name of “raikiri” and is ranked S over Sasuke’s tech which is an A. It’s obvious Kakashi has better handling of his own tech than Sasuke. If there’s some sort of contradiction blame it on Kishi.)

    http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2760/db1209chidorisyazx0gh.jpg (Hell, for all we know Sasuke’s chidori can be in the S class right now. ;))

    Who cares if the official databook says so right? >_>

    Meh, that’s enough to read through and I’m sure people will complain it was too long. 😀 Lol, alright let’s talk about the latest chapter. I thought it was great, plenty of comedy and some action. Bee is a beast and will be Naruto’s perfect trainer. Naruto better call him sensei! 😀

  121. @bunshin9: I don’t know why you guys dislike any chapter without any fight. Not all chapters are gonna have one. Maybe it’s just me, I like chapters where they talk too, especially progressive ones like this last chapter.

    How about a Naruto prediction? Kisame comes out of Samehada and attacks Bee and Naruto while they’re talking but Bee let’s Naruto fight Kisame by himself as practice for training.

  122. 1 thing is sure… Kisame will die this time. the best chance he has of defeating those shinobi in the island in NOW. if by chance he waited a little longer, Naruto would be much much more powerful. But i think what Kisame can do is ask for reinforcement from Madara and i think Madara would bring his “Zombie Crew” with him and with this Naruto and Bee can have something to practice on….

    If you think this Chapter is boring i think the next chapter would be more boring… I dont think Bee would teach Naruto anything that easily, he could be stubborn and a lot of begging should be done or Bee could challenge Naruto right away and use the beat-me-and-i-will-teach-you crap.

  123. Training + Island Monsters + Kisame = 8 Weeks of Awesomeness

    This Manga Ep reminds me of KING KONG them now being on some strange island.
    This sort of theme deserves a few battles agaisnt some giant beasts hopefully Godzilla look alikes, Bee & Naruto can knock around.
    Or even Yamato could catch some Beast that would at least bring some clues about how people have their own beasts and all that, but so many cool new possiblities arise.

    Though I have the feeling its not going to be that exciting for the next few weeks.

    Naruto Break anyhow, See ya in 8 Weeks. Not that you care 😉

  124. Here’s a thought…

    I think Kishi is going to hit us with a bit of Deja Vu

    While Bee and Naruto are training on this island, Pein will re-attack Konoha and probably the Kumo mainland? Well it will be
    Pein, his dead homies, and his new mah-stur Kabutochimaru.

    From there we’ll see:
    Bee will die JUST AFTER TEACHING NARUTO TO CONTROL the kyuubi.
    Naruto will Kill Kisame, return to the village, to find it re-destroyed, and Tsunade, Hinata, and Sakura pregnant by Kabuto.

    Finally Madara will reveal that he is Either TENTEN or AKIRA (from the anime “AKIRA”)

  125. Dragonfly: DYNAMIC ENTRY! Dragonfly, lands making a clear stance!

    Yes the rumours are true, Mistress Fly enters her very 1st WRA debate! Throws her hands up in support her homeboys Capitan Pickleseseseseseseses and warrior 10 10, for Team Gaara.

    Both Pickles and Ten have already made an awesome case for Gaara victory against Kakashi, awesome you both are! But, I may just add my 10 cents in. Before I begin, I would like to know whether this is a vote of popularity or a Vote for who would win in a fight? Because if it were a fight….then we all know that Gaara would win hands and feet down, the durability of his sand usage has skyrocketed to crazy levels as of late!

    If you don’t think Kakashi can be beaten, by being crushed or suffocated by the awesome power of sand, you are a disillusioned fool! (dattebayo!)

    @Darks: Your statistics show that stamina is the only thing that Gaara outmatches Kakashi in, correct? Taking into account Kishimoto wrote the data sheets you so heavily use to back up your claim, why would I silly, old, completely clueless Fly argue against mangaka! DARN STRAIGHT I R! What the stats don’t factor into account (you pass math right), is that someone who has a large amount of Stamina and chakra like Gaara! This Kage could defeat a more experienced ninja on this alone, all Gaara would need to do is fly into the air which he could do in less then a second. When even Kakashi uses his techniques his charka depletes very quickly. Sure Kakashi knows over 1000 jutsus, but that doesn’t make him stronger or better than Gaara. Each of the 3 legendary sannin knows at most 13 jutsus yet their stronger and better than Kakashi, who doesn’t have what it takes to take on Gaara once he transfom into Shukaku or awaken the Shukaku itself. Gaara could easily kill.

    Advantage Gaara. Kakashi can use any technique he likes but can’t catch a flying Gaara, especial if it’s a sand clone Gaara uses while he flies into the sky. From the sky he could use a sandstorm to block any moves kakashi could make LOL. ‘Float like a butterfly (I prefer dragonfly), sting like a bee, ya’ll can’t hit what ya’ll cant see! For example, Haku had more experience then Naruto if we look at the so called ‘stats’ by your theory he would of won, right? However Naruto kicked ass! Why? Because stats are just numbers. They don’t taking into account certain variables.

    @Marks & Ahsan:

    Now, Kakashi used his Kamui twice. That put him in the hospital. Where the manga is at he STILL can’t use Kamui more than 2 times safely. Trying to pull off Kamui and Raikiri right after each other is nearly impossible.
    And there’s another issue. Sure Gaara stands still while attacking and defending. But as you might have noticed when he fought Deidara, he stood in the air Kakashi can’t fly, so he cant even pull off his attacks.
    Lastly, have you seen the size of Gaara’s attacks?

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/02/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/05/

    Now if you choose to live in a fairy tale where you think there is anything bigger then Gaara’s sandball, GOODLUCK WITH THAT.

    Deidara had his fast bird and he could also blast his way through. Kakashi on the other hand is the precision type. Even if he uses Raikiri, getting his arm through the sand won’t help him much when Gaara decides to create a new desert. Sharingan is not going help there either, what if Gaara starts a giant sandstorm? Sharingan becomes useless, smell becomes useless, and to top that off he could turn the entire battlefield into quicksand at the same time.
    A single Desert Burial and Kakashi is dead. Don’t even get me started on Desert Requiem

    Gaara went from being a mere genin to being the Kage of a village and is arguably the (individually) most powerful Shinobi in all the land, and could form a city-wide shield and fight a winning battle(he would have won if not for the whole bomb thing and had to protect the Suna) against one of the(lesser, but you get the point) members of the dreaded association, Akatsuki. Kakashi, on the other hand, has not shown signs of much improvement at all, as he still hasn’t gotten over his weakness, and sure, he may have gotten the Mangekyou, but it had a huge toll on him, and took forever to mold chakra to fuel it.(not to mention he isn’t very good with it, either). Gaara could just take advantage of this siuation and beat him before he even knows it.

    There’s ways for Gaara to deal with Kakashi’s Chidori/Raikiri and his Mangekyou Sharingan. For the Chidori/Raikiri, all Gaara has to do is slow down Kakashi while he’s running towards Gaara before he stretches out the arm that’s carrying the Chidori/Raikiri. Since he’s a long-range specialist, that won’t be a problem at all. He can easily rain down all sorts of death-bringing sand from the sky where he’s flying and unable to be reached by Kakashi, even. And if Kakashi tries his stupid Kamui, Gaara can just put sand in his eye.

    GAME ON!

    Cuddles Fly xoxo

  126. hahaha i love when Trek gets into the debate he pwns all others (not that team kakashi needed anymore help thanks to marksman) i love gaara but kakashi FTW

  127. @Dragonfly – you confidently answered to one of my lesser points. As a newbie, I congratulate you. Before you start harping on about a flying Gaara, please read Supertrek’s latest post, in particular Kakashi VS a flying Deidara. On his first time using Kamui, he managed to take Deidara’s arm off. Please tell me how a flying Gaara can do any better. Also you seem to have danced over my point of Kakashi using Kamui straight off the bat, before Gaara even has a chance to take the cork outta his gourd. If you have read the latest manga chapters, you would have witnessed how quickly he can pull off a Kamui.

  128. @Dragonfly: You go, girl!

    @Darkavatar: You say I’m wrong, but still fail to show me any means by which Kakashi could possibly perfect a jutsu he cannot use frequently without being rendered useless for a ridiculous chunk of time relative to the amount of times he uses the jutsu in the first place.

    Kakashi used Kamui with the bow and afterward, he TRIED to run to Sasuke but he could not maintain balance because he had just used the technique.

    When Kakashi took off Deidara’s arm he continued with the chase just as effectively as before, and with help from others, cornered Deidara, and even used Kamui AGAIN for a second time.

    Yes, I am noticing a difference, but it’s not improvement. In fact, it’s the exact opposite.

    You make it sound as if his stint at the infirmary took immediate effect after he used Kamui the first time on Deidara.

    You seem to like implying that what I suggested is is nothing but unfounded speculation. But the truth is, saying Kakashi must have improved his Kamui over this period of time is exactly the same thing. Only difference is, unlike in my case, where I have the fact of how Kakashi could not warp Deidara with the same incredible speed you guys boast in his behalf, you have zilch.

    You say the FACT still remains that Kakashi can warp faster than a speeding crossbow, but how can you conclude that is fact when the same Kakashi could barely take off one of Deidara’s appendages? I’ve already shown how improvement is near impossible, and no one has suggested to me yet how it could be possible. So I formulated a thesis which was backed up by real fact that would explain how the bow and missile were warped faster.

    Even Madara doesn’t warp objects that fast, and I would hate to have to read anyone suggesting Kakashi can use space/time ninjutsu better than Tobi or Obito or Madara or whoever you like to call him…

    I have those simple irrefutable realities to back up my ‘theory’ as you like to call it, whereas all I see as backup for your claims is…well, nothing. Or maybe all this reading and writing has made my eyes sore…literacy can be such a pain, you know ;___;…

    I don’t believe 74% of WRA is saying his Kamui is improved. They are only saying he would win. Period. And even so, if 74% believes that it has actually improved, that does little or nothing to change actual reality. You would be amazed how many false teachings poison the minds of the majorities over the globe, but that does not make them true just because they are believed by most.

    Oh, and Marks, I believe I’ve touched on the arguments you’ve raised in this post as well. I can’t make a separate post, I’m gonna get RSI if I keep this up X___X.

  129. @Marksman

    Yes, I know Kakashi is on kage level and I took that into acount. That is the reason I said the fight will be prolonged quite a bit and not that Gaara will crush him. And Kakashi so far has been in one long fight-with Hidan and Kakuzu. Every other of his fights has been more of a quick brawl than anything else, yet he looked tired after them. Furthermore, if you ask me he is a genious only when compared to normal people. Almost everyone of his fights with akatsuki ends up with him being pawned, so yeah, while I am not saying Gaara is going to destroy him, I do believe he ha slightly better chances of winning.

  130. @pickles – we’re going in circles here. You don’t seem to be understanding what I’m saying, so I’ll try again. I’m not saying he can use Kamui without suffering severe side effects, I’m saying that those side effects would not matter as Kakashi has shown the ability to target an impossibly fast moving target and warp it in the blink of an eye, and if he did the same thing to Gaara straight off the bat, Gaara would be dead and thus unable to exploit any opportunity for counterattack that a failed Kamui would offer. I have cited a manga page TWICE that demonstrates Kakashi’s improved Kamui use, as H
    has Supertrek, as has Ahsan, as has Marksman.

    I can conclude that Kakashi can warp faster than a speeding arrow because we have SEEN IT HAPPEN, regardless of his past performance against Deidara. That was then; this is now. I can’t understand why you are bringing this subject up continuously.

    As for stating that Kakashi’s time/space jutsu is faster than Madara’s, did I say that? Or are you just making an erroneous assumption? In truth, I believe that we haven’t seen Madara’s full potential. He could very well be faster than what Kakashi has demonstrated, in fact I think it’s incredibly likely. But we haven’t seen him pushed to his limits yet.

    Regardless of what you use to back up your theory, it is just that: a theory. I’m debating pure facts here. Keep your theories for a thread dedicated for other such theories.

  131. @DarkAvatar: sure Kakashi could take Gaara out with a quick kamui before anything starts, but WHEN, WHEN, WHEN have we ever seen Kakashi show up early to anything? He waits for his opening, and if anything is a little too tardy at even strategy (‘I was helping an old lady on her quest for the meaning of life’). It’s a guaranteed win if you could get Kakashi to do it, but it’s completely counter to his character.

  132. Meh, all this talk about Kamui is doing nothing but, once again, clearly defining the overemphasis on the use of MS in a battle.

    I don’t think I have seen a single debate where people don’t treat the MS as the almighty battle ender. In fact, just about every debate I have read, it is emphasized to death.

    In truth, it is not all powerful and it is not unbeatable. Having use of the MS does not instantly mean you are victorious and we have seen that more than enough times to understand that fact already. You guys claim Kakashi is a genius, but all you do is spam the idea of Kamui ending the battle before it begins, when in truth, that would hardly be the case nor would it be sensible for Kakashi to do so.

    Lets take a look at some examples. I will be using Captain Pickle’s ideas of how we have seen Kakashi use Kamui in the past, even up until recently, to support my case. In every instance of Kakashi having successfully used Kamui, it has always been on a flying projectile with a predictable path. For example, Pein’s rocket fist, or Sasuke’s crossbow, or even Deva path’s nail that was hurled at Kakashi himself.

    It was easy for Kakashi to absorb those because their flight path and destination was easy to predict. They were travelling in a straight line and all Kakashi had to do was measure that. Now, on the flip side, we have never once seen Kakashi successfully use Kamui on another shinobi, ever, other than when he took of Deidara’s arm, and even that took effort. If it was just as simple as focusing on the enemy, then why didn’t Kakashi just focus on Pein when he first attacked him?

    He knew how much of a threat Pain was. This was the man that defeated the very powerful Jiraiya and was in the process of destroying Konoha altogether. Are you saying he would use Kamui on Gaara to end a battle quickly and not someone as powerful and far more threatening as Pein?

    Pein was not particularly fast, so if everyone’s theory supporting the speed of kamui is correct, then surely Kakashi could have just absorbed Pein’s body easily, right? And yet he didn’t…

    Why? Because I think he knew that it would be a waste. The enemy would have noticed his attack and avoided it. An erratically moving target with an unpredictable movement pattern is not the same as a projectile flying in a predictable path and if Kakashi is forced to keep Kamui active for too long, he will die before you know it. Even when he absorbed enemy attacks, Kamui was only active for a fleeting moment and yet still it drained him completely. That’s why he was smart enough to know when to, and when not to, use it, and yes, that is a compliment to him.

    Kakashi using Kamui against Gaara is nonsensical, based on those factors alone. He knows that, and the clues are prominent enough for us to know it as well. If it was that easy, there would be no enemy that could defeat Kakashi if he could just start the battle by activating Kamui and being done with it. Kamui is not a sure winner and it isn’t all powerful, just the same as any technique, so try giving Kakashi some more credit instead of making him too much of a one trick pony.

  133. By the way, Dumb Adze is ME. ^.^

  134. @Pickles(es,es,es…es) and DarkAvatar

    Yo, guys, why exactly do we assume that Kakashi can target Gaara through something obstructing his view if him. If that were the case he wouldn’t have needed to track Deidara so closely and he could just hide somewhere and use this jutsu. So far it has been quite obvious he needs to see his target and if things really are like this it is quite salient that Gaara needs only to keep a wall between them,something like, oh I don’t know, maybe his ultimate defense.

    I think we are all overestimating Kamui.Deadly it is, useful-not so much. I mean how many people has he killed with it-that’s right- none.And how many times has he been in hospital-two or three.It just not a very versatile jutsu but rather a specialized one as in it can’t be used very much and every single use brings tremendous danger with it. What if he misses eh.It will leave him too fatigued to respond to any incoming attack that is bound to come.Also Deidara was pretty much flying in a straight line and that is not something very hard to keep track on, but will Gaara stay in one place. You are all assuming things based on a few fights we’ve seen him in but will he really just sit there and wait.We have seen Gaara can be quite mobile if the need rises so I don’t see him just standing there, looking pretty and waiting to be hit by something.

  135. @Dumb Adze & Tenrai – You say that to use Kamui straight off the bat is completely opposite to his character, but as Super and I have demonstrated (on more than one occasion), Kakashi was more than willing to do it to Madara. I’m not going to bother posting the link again. Using that example as evidence, I hereby state that when Kakashi feels it is the best course of action or he has limited options, he can and will use Kamui.

    @Tenrai – Yes, Kakashi didn’t use Kamui on Pein, but to suggest that it’s because he believed that it’s a wasted effort is wrong. As I said just before, he was willing to use it on Madara, and I’d be willing to bet that Madara is faster than Pein. And if it’s so wrong I won’t bring up a databook page as evidence.

    You say that it would not be sensible for Kakashi to use his MS tech on Gaara, but Kakashi knows Gaara’s abilities, and as you have stated, Gaara’s abilities are a perfect counter to Kakashi. He would know this and act accordingly.

    And let’s face it dude: the Sharingan is the single most overused, overpowered ability in the manga. But it is a tool at his disposal, is it not? If you are unable to overcome our argument that Kamui when used straight off the bat, then we have won, have we not? I am willing to concede that if it came to ninjutsu vs ninjutsu, Gaara would win. But that’s all. Kakashi has speed, taijutsu, genjutsu, a sharingan, and the ability to use Kamui.

  136. Lol, come on people. Don’t we always wind up going in circles in debates? It’s simply because both sides use the same arguments over and over again. The trick is using your argument the best and proving why the other side is talking a lot of garbage! XD

    Kakashi supporters use the argument of Kamui, genjutsu, raikiri, speed, intelligence, experience, and a vast array of jutsu.

    Gaara supporters use sand, sand, and more sand. Of course, and I don’t blame them. These are the main weapons and they work so why not use them? 😉

    I say give both Kakashi and Gaara more credit! Have we forgotten as shinobi they also have shurinen and smoke bombs? O_O Lol, seriously though no matter what you may say a victory is a victory. How one obtains it, as long as the battle is fair, is inconsequential. Yeah, we say Kakashi takes Gaara out with Kamui. You say Gaara buries Kakashi in sand. Lol, it’s all the same in the end.

    @Tenrai and Pickles: You know, I completely agree if Gaara was bobbing and weaving around in his fight sure he could possibly avoid Kakashi’s MS. Ah, but what has already been proven in Gaara’s fights? What is his track record when fighting someone on the ground? You know the answer already. He simply stands there. You can continue to bring up the argument of Kakashi only warping linear objects in this Kakashi vs. Gaara debate but don’t forget Kakashi’s opponent (Gaara) just stands in the middle of the battlefield.

    So far Kakashi has whipped out his MS twice at the beginning of a fight to quickly and quietly dispose of his enemy. Are we saying he could and would do the same for Gaara? Yes, based on the facts shown to us in the manga. Deidara is just as much as of threat, if not more, than Gaara correct? Did Kakashi not try to warp Deidara’s head off on his first use of MS? Kakashi knows more about Gaara too so intel also plays a role in all of this. Kakashi has seen Gaara fight before. Gaara has never seen Kakashi fight. Kakashi knows what Gaara’s abilities are, not saying all of them. Gaara may have heard of Kakashi’s abilities and experiences. We all know how intel can turn a battle.

    Hmm…Pickles the progression and improvement of Kakashi’s MS and chakra has already been proven. Cited and referenced actually. Your theory on how Kakashi’s MS works and how Kakashi is actually taking a step back in progression is interesting but…well you know. It’s just a theory.

    P.S. You forget Tenrai that Madara is not effected by Kakashi’s Kamui, so there is in fact a guaranteed opponent that Kakshi could not beat. >(0_-)>

    @Ibiki: YOSH!!! So if I prove Kakashi has actually used the MS right off that bat before he could definitely win this battle? XD

    @Fly: Ah, of course I have other points to make but I’ll end this post by letting you know those aren’t Gaara’s attacks you have linked on to your post. Those are actually Deidara’s.

  137. @DarkAvatar

    Kakashi using it on Madara was just desperation, because he knew it would end the war. And, if you ask me, that was the single most stupid decision Kakashi has ever made. He was willing to use a tech on an opponent even though it may not work (and in this case, wouldn’t have) all so that he could put himself in hospital as the only result?

    That argument does nothing but deteriorate the image of Kakashi’s status as a genius and it doesn’t really make him look any better.
    As for using it on Gaara, as mentioned already, we haven’t seen Kakashi successfully use Kamui on any moving opponent recently. He knows the risk and he would be cautious. As I said, that is a compliment to him because it shows his intelligence, but at the same time, it also shows that an quick victory against Gaara is not sensible.

    Now, I am not saying Kakashi couldn’t win, so please don’t think I am. I am just saying that any victory he might attain is definitely not going to be a quick one. Kakashi’s real disadvantage is his stamina, though, so that is one thing that would be his undoing.

  138. All right, get ready, I’m jumping in on this debate as well!

    1)Kakashi using kamui off the bat: NOPE! two reasons for why he used kamui in his career: 1, deidara was flying AWAY at fast speeds, making long range ninjutsu’s too slow, or any form of jutsu at that matter. solution? A type of jutsu that is instantly on your opponent—>kamui. 2, Tobi/Madara. Remember, Kakashi had seen several forms of attacks just phase through him (before the Itachi/Sasuke fight) So, he was aware that he needed something unique, fast, and a one hit kill just to leave a mark.

    Don’t you think he would have attempted to immediately use it on pein if he didn’t see other logical ways to attack while using less risky moves?

    2) I agree, Gaara hasn’t taken flight in any ground based fight. Not even when he had his small skirmish with Sasuke. He can still use his sand pretty well, and in fact could prevent ameratsu from hitting. That’s a testament to obscuring kamui quickly. However, If this is done using his chakra infused sand, it makes the ultimate defense useless.

    3) If gaara could easily be affected by genjutsu, Sasuke would have likely used it. We know this could be accounted for, though, as a waste of chakra, due to the several people near Gaara, so that’s a hit or miss.

    4) Kakashi has speed and cunning. Not at average levels, extreme levels. No ones mentioned his ninja dogs summoning ( I know, not really that useful in a sense ) And despite his average chakra levels, he always makes sure he uses chakra to in productive ways.

    5) We just don’t know how much stronger (or weaker!) gaara is since he lost his bijuu. Not enough info if you ask me. We have to base it on what the manga gives us, and gaara’s peak is his fight with deidara. Kakashi has shown several CONSECUTIVE times recently that he can hit very fast objects, accurately and quickly. I don’t buy the “forced” stuff. We have to go with we have seen, and they don’t say “It was teleported because I knew it’s path was linear” It just shows the thing being teleported, and we know it’s by what the eye is focused on. Therefore, atm, I can only side with he CAN use kamui quickly and accurately.

    This fight would be epic, and long. It would come down to the wire, and despite kakashi’s lack of stamina, superior speed, intelligence, and experience would keep gaara on the defensive, and ultimately leaving a fatal blind spot. Sorry guys, I’m siding with Kakashi on this one, but Kakashi will be hospital bound afterwards

    @Fly, didn’t you vote for Kakashi in the poll? ^_^

  139. @Super

    Gaara would also know about Kakashi’s abilities, so I doubt he would just “stand there” knowing the risk. He isn’t stupid.

    Gaara’s sand is also very fast, and if he wants to, he could move at a considerable speed. I think you are putting Kakashi against too dense an opponent, rather than seeing Gaara for what he is. He is a kage, he became one at a very young age and he is very proficient in battle.

    I don’t know why everyone is making him out to be some dense log of a shinobi who would just stand there waiting to be eaten.

  140. @ AJD no I voted Gaara 100% its the logical choice!

  141. @tenrai – you are arguing my cited, referenced, and manga-supported argument that Kakashi could use Kamui straight off the bat to end this battle with your personal view on Kakashi’s character. You know me by now man: when I debate, I hold on to my arguments like a dog with a bone. No one has yet wrestled that bone from me with cold hard evidence that trumps the latest revelations from the Naruto manga and counteracts Kakashi’s proven speed and accurate Kamui use. If you want me to drop Kamui, then go ahead and drop Gaara’s sand manipulation techniques. Whether you choose to accept it or not, no matter your personal misgivings on my using Kamui, accept the fact that Kakashi’s MS technique is an incredibly powerful tool in his arsenal, and we have every right to spam it as much as we can with references.

  142. @DarkAvatar

    I am giving examples from the manga to support my argument, just like you are giving examples from the manga to support yours. You are saying that Kakashi could use Kamui right away and I am saying that doing so would likely be unsuccessful. You are giving reasons as to why he would which are also opinionated (I.E. because he knows Gaara’s abilities, is that not opinionated?) and I used my argument about the accuracy of Kamui to support that and examples from the battle with Pein to support why I think he wouldn’t.

    From my point of view, there is no reason Kakashi shouldn’t have just used Kamui on Pein if everything you said is true, while in yours, you try to give reasons as to why you think he would against Gaara when he never has done so before. At the end of the day, a debate is ultimately someone’s opinion, supported by factual references and evidence. However, it is still an opinion in the end.

    Unless Kishi himself says one way or the other, there is actually no real way to prove who would win a specific battle, except for using the manga as a reference to support our arguments, which both of us are doing. At the end of the day, I think we are both just too stubborn to lose a debate. lol!!!

    But then, if it was easy, it wouldn’t be much of a fun debate, would it?

  143. @anyone who wants to cite Kakashi’s battle with Pein a proof that Kakashi would not use Kamui straight away:

    This will be short I promise ^_^

    Kakashi could have used Kamui on Pein, but didn’t. Why? Cos he did not yet know the full extent of Deva Paths’ abilities. In contrast, Kakashi knows Gaara’s abilities all too well, having witnessed them himself. Compare this to Madara. Kakashi knew just how powerful and dangerous Madara can be, and attempted to use the technique he thought was necessary in the situation.

    Personal feelings aside, Kakashi has demonstrated his willingness to use Kamui on an opponent he feels it is necessary to use it on. Given the above examples, why is it so inconcievable to you all that Kakashi would use Kamui on an opponent as dangerous as Gaara?

  144. I agree w/ Tenrai, both will have considerable info on each other, and if you knew you were going to be fighting one of the most renowned assassins of all time and thought, “I’ll just stand there” that just turns into a practice dummy. I don’t see gaara standing in one spot even for an instant. However, Gaara rarely fights on the move, which gives Kakashi an advantage, though that would be small. Gaara moved pretty well when he was air born. A smoke bomb might be useful for gaara and Kakashi escape wise, but we can consider those counters that cancel each other out from both sides.

    Honestly, if the terrain is completely neutral aka not a dessert or a thick forest, I stand by Kakashi prevailing and likely sent to the hospital

  145. @DarkAvatar

    Kkashi witnessed Gaara’s abilities as a genin who thought he was immortal. A genin that was severely overconfident and pretty dense at the time.

    Since then, Gaara has become a lot smarter, more focused, cooler and a Kazekage, while Kakashi has pretty much remained the same other than the addition of his MS.

    Oh, and I do accept the fact that Kakashi’s MS is a powerful tool. I would never deny that. I just think that when people over emphasize the MS alone, they are not doing Kakashi or any other person who uses it any justice as a character. It was like Naruto and his shadow clones. Sure, it is a great technique, and sure it’s uses are near infinite, but if that is all you look at in Naruto, it makes him seem like a very one sided fighter.

    Naruto only started to become truly proficient in battle when he started using them more smartly and when he grew his other abilities more. Now he has more in his arsenal and a lot more ways to combine them for great effect. As a whole, he is a more rounded character with the ability to summon, use clones, use nature manipulation, Sage mode, extreme chakra sensing and much more refined taijutsu thanks to Fukusaku’s training.

    With Kakashi, I just feel that everyone is relying too much on one trump card, despite how powerful it is.

    Anyway, I feel we are going around in circles here and I am partly to blame for that as well. Perhaps we should take a break for a bit to think, or try to move onto a new scenario or other examples in addition to the discussion about Kamui. I think that beast has been beaten to death as it is.

  146. In my illogical, fan-based opinion (reminiscent of the attitude displayed by Ahsan) Kakashi wins cuz I like him as a character better, however when I use my brain and look at the facts it becomes quite obvious that Kakashi would get his ass-whooped by Gaara….

    Sorry to betray Ahsan and other Kakashi fans, but I prefer intellect over ignorance.

    -ReFleX

    i really dont get why you guys keep on saying that i gave non-facts in the only two posts i made -_-
    -ahsan

  147. @tenrai – *jumps up and down happily with kamui bone still in mouth* ^_^

    I spam Kamui because Kakashi has demonstrated just how accuratly and quickly he can use it, and because it has been shown that he has no misgivings about using it as a first and final offense. If he uses Kamui, it will connect. Trying to disprove that is akin to saying that it was just a fluke that Kakashi caught a flying crossbow bolt.

    In comparison, you and others on the Gaara side of this great divide (lol…omg. that rhymed, didn’t it? sorry…) have attempted to say Gaara would immediately start flying to dodge it. Gaara has never fought a grounded enemy while flying. That is fact – backed up by manga references – which makes the theory of Gaara flying while fighting Kakashi all the more unlikely. As for Gaara turning a chuunin-exam style battleground into a desert straight away is not likely either. He’s only ever done that once, and that was against Kimimaro, and even then it wasn’t the first thing he did. In every fight he’s ever had (bar the one he had against his only FLYING opponent, Deidara), he has initiated the fight by standing in place and hoping his sand will protect him from any attacks that come. This makes him a perfect target. Kakashi won’t miss; he caught an MS-level technique with Kamui. If he can teleport a crossbow bolt from freaking SUSANOO, Gaara could not possibly raise anything fast enough to obscure Kakashi’s vision.

    I never back down, Tenrai. You know me. No breaks; I’m good to go. Take my bone from me, dude, or back out of this debate. I am Fobkage, Leader of the Hidden Samoan Village, and we’re a stubborn bunch lol.

  148. I would say Kakashi is strong and would be a tough battle but both are of Kage level and Gaara has the elemental advantage therfore I vote for Gaara

  149. I love being able to edit my own comments, just quietly. Screw you, typos!

  150. @To63to: “You are all assuming things based on a few fights we’ve seen him in but will he really just sit there and wait” (To63to)

    I believe all debate battles and characters involved should be based off the information provided in the battles/fights the characters have been in from the beginning to current storyline. Honestly, there’s not much else to go off of. I’m going to direct this at Tenrai and Ajd also since you all went over the same point. XD

    Will Gaara just “stand there”? Lol, I know it may sound condescending and it may even sound like I’m underestimating him but actually I’m just going off his fighting style the manga has shown us. Yes, he actually will just “stand there”. I’m sorry if you feel like I’m underestimating him but I feel like you’re making him do something the manga has shown him never to do. Move much if at all in a ground battle. Oh yeah, he’s definitely not stupid but he quite literally is a statue in these situations.

    Now Gaara’s ultimate defense. Kakashi can bypass it with raikiri or kamui.

    1. Gaara has never entered battle with his ultimate defense or any other defense up for that matter. In other words Gaara is in plain sight with nothing standing in his way.

    2. Kakashi can activate and use kamui faster than he himself can move. 3 years ago Sasuke already demonstrated speed faster than Gaara could raise his sand defenses up. I believe we all know Kakashi is faster than Sasuke 3 years ago. In current time Kakashi can, again, activate and utilize MS faster than he himself can move. In conclusion, he can warp Gaara right into another dimension faster than he can raise his sand shield.

    3. Sasuke penetrated Gaara’s ultimate defense with chidori. Kakashi’s raikiri is on a higher level and earth is weak against lighting attacks. In other words without even reverting to kamui Kakashi can pierce Gaara’s heart.

    @Ajd: Ah, you say Kakashi would definitely not use kamui right off the bat though he did so for Madara and Deidara. This is because Madara and Deidara were special cases in special situations right? You say for certain Kakashi wouldn’t just take Gaara out though Kakashi has demonstrated the ability to do so twice before. Lol, I never said Kakashi would absolutely do it 100%, I just showed he could do it and it was in his ability. In other words there’s a good possibility. Though you say it’s a 0% chance but remember Deidara was just as much a threat of an opponent as Gaara. Are you sure you want to go down that road? 😉

    Let’s use the nin dogs! We already used genjutsu and raikiri for Kakashi’s side of the debate. XD He can use the nin dogs to sniff Gaara out if Gaara ever gets around to using a sandstorm. How about Kakashi burrowing underground and using a clone to observe Gaara’s movements? Something Gaara has never utilized a clone to do before.

    @Tenrai: Yeah, I’m sure Gaara would have some intel on Kakashi. In fact I said he would but honestly who has more? Who saw the opponent fight not once, but twice? Kakashi. Who never saw any of the opponents abilities in battle? Gaara. What intel does Gaara have on Kakashi? We can rightfully assume he knows about the basic sharingan abilities and Kakashi’s fame. That’s about it. He saw how Gaara fights, he knows how his sand works, and he knows his ultimate defense. Sure he only saw him as a genin fighting twice but you can’t deny this is valuable intel in battle.

    In the end, if Reflex’s words of wisdom are to be held true. Then going off the fact that intellect wins in the end then Kakashi is the obvious winner of this battle. 😉

  151. I never have been one for reading essays, however the last paragraph of supertrek’s post caught my eye, mainly cuz it had my name in it…. You see, super, that last paragraph is a perfect example of ignorance on the part of Kakashi supporters. If you read closely, I was supporting Gaara, and you took a small portion of my post and used it to support yours… It seems as though Kakashi supporters only use things that benefit them without giving the whole truth or story…. Veerrryyyy interesting indeed…..

    -ReFleX (almost forgot about my sig =P)

  152. @reflex – and in much the same way, you have taken that same point and twisted it around to insinuate that those who support Kakashi are ignoring that which is inconvenient to us. Which is, of course, completely wrong and based off the slimmest evidence and which of course benefits you. Makes you a hypocrite, flex. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously…

  153. @DarkAvatar

    You can sit happily with your bone. I am just seeing the debate for what it is. It is suppose to be fun, not some sort of argument. just don’t take it too seriously.

    And yes, you are spamming Kamui, something that Kakashi can’t do. lol! I was trying to debate you with respect, for both yourself and for Kakashi as a character, and yet you seem to think turn that into some sort of weakness on my part. Perhaps I should rather just ask you to back down in the same way you have just asked me because my ego precedes my thoughtfulness?

    Actually, I am just tired of arguing the same point over and over and over. There is a difference between being stubborn and being stupid and right now arguing a point that no-one is ever going to concede in is stupid, so I am not going to waste my time on that.

  154. hey, I gave both sides a good deal of analysis flex! lol

  155. This reminds me of the Naruto vs Itachi debate he had all so long ago. X__X

  156. @Reflex: Ehhhhh!?! You were supporting Gaara!? O_O I only looked at what I needed and used that to support my argument!? ^(0_0)^

    I thought my last paragraph was obvious sarcasm having nothing really to do with the debate and anyone who read it would get that. Lol, interesting indeed…>_>

  157. who cares about kamui! Gokashi can just go ss4 and fuse GAIgeta and use bigbang dynamic entry! OHHHH I totally went there!

  158. @Darks – I am simply setting out on a mission to disprove any and all wrong or misused information Kakashi supporters give. Supertrek took my comment completely out of context and tried to use it to his advantage… What’s to say he isn’t also taking other information or considerations out of context as well just to support his claim? It’s a simple concept. I am attempting to undermine and disprove facts given by you, super, and others to strengthen mine and tenrai/other gaara supporters case. This might sound very familiar if you took the time to research it, as this concept is applied by lawyers in courts around the world on a daily basis. They attempt to find facts or inconsistencies in their opponents case to build their own…. Is it really wrong for me to apply this same concept in this debate?

    @ Super – Oh, so you essentially get owned by my statement and attempt to pass your own off as sarcasm? Should I just take your entire statement as being sarcastic or just the last 2 lines that came back to bite you in the bum?? 😉

  159. LOL! XD Yes, my last paragraph was obviously a serious point I was trying to make in the debate. That point being Kakashi is smarter than Gaara so he obviously wins. Of course this wasn’t sarcasm and by all means a very logical statement. You caught me Reflex, now if you don’t mind please don’t ever wink at me again after saying “bite you in the bum”. o_o

    😛

    Now before we deviate away from Naruto to much *cough*DBZAJD?*cough* (lolz) might I suggest a cup of soldier pills to Tenrai and Dark? Sakura made them so you know you’ll be on good hands. 😉 (Note: This was also sarcasm ~_~)

  160. Kamui requires the eyes to focus in on the target
    Solution: A. Sand barrier to prevent line of sight, rendering Kamui useless. B. Create sand-“suicide”-clone to take one for the team.
    Result: Kakashi misses, perhaps multiple times, becomes weakened and gets owned

    Kakashi has to concentrate to use the attack, reducing his ability to dodge.
    Solution: Attack, attack, attack… A technique that requires extreme precision would be near impossible to use while dodging fast moving attacks.
    Result: A. He misses attack altogether. B. He is unable to use attack at all.

    What other points do Kakashi supporters have to make that can be answered in 2 lines or less?

  161. out of the debate now i dont really care who actually wins but why am i being targetted by every one (again ) as to only saying kakashi would win because of favouratism ( typo !_! ) i think imma ask for proof this time ~_~

  162. @ Ahsan – Cuz your a fangirl

  163. important things worth mentioning:

    1) gaara has blocked Sasuke’s similar eye techs and protected two others at the same time

    2) If Gaara is getting owned, which apparently doesn’t happen that often in ground vs. ground fighting, I think he’ll move to an aerial approach

    3) Using smoke bombs on gaara’s end would significantly increase protection in any case he is weary of kamui

    4) There needs to be a set fricken environment to this fight!

  164. @ Ibiki

    Welcome back!

    @supertrek89

    We already know intelligence doesn’t always win a battle. Instinct has a lot to do with it as well (Naruto is a good example) and sometimes when you think too much, you lack the resolve to take action.

  165. meh ._.

  166. @Super

    I never said you underestimate Gaara.Yes, his style is pretty stationery but as I and some other people pointed out he can be quite mobile if the need rises.We have already seen this in the battle against Deidara and I do believe it will be no different against Kakashi.

    Now about Gaara’s ultimate defense-I never meant that it would be impenetrable, but to rather to serve as a mere obstacle to hinder Kakashi’s focus.

    Oh,btw, Kamui requires hand signs, doesn’t it.Wouldn’t Gaara see those and prepare for something.At least Kakashi is not as absurdly fast as Itachi was so his hands, I reckon,can be seen.

    Wow, this debate is getting heated.I am even defending characters that are not of particular interest to me 😀

    On a lighter note, what do you guys think will happen when the two “idiots” Naruto and Bee meet.

  167. meh, I think I’ve been on the fence on this one. too many “what if” situations. What if kakashi used kamui off the bat? yeah, what if gaara was already encasing him in a sand coffin and that’s what started the fight? what if Kakashi’s eye explodes and he spontaneously combusted? what if I wasn’t just rambling right now. These are all what ifs, but only one seems to hold value. You know what? Yes, Kakashi would win if he used kamui right away, but if he didn’t, no, he probably wouldn’t. It would be a good, long fight, and I feel gaara might outlast him. And yes, I’m thinking gaara would win now. Just because I can. NOW GET ME A CHICKEN SANDWICH AND SOME WAFFLE FRIES…FOR FREE!

  168. Ahhh, the epic battle of Reflex, Tenrai, Pickles, Fly, Some dude named to63to vs Superhoe, Darks, Asson the fangirl, and various other fangirls of similar style reaches it’s climax (insert dirty joke here) — While Kakashi has the support of the vote, the popular candidate in the comments seems to be Gaara with more outspoken individuals… Who will be the winner in this epic battle between two of the Naruto world’s most powerful & revered ninjas? The conclusion to the battle, including the announcement and coronation of the winner is just a day or two away… Stay tuned to see the exciting announcement, here… On W.R.A.

    Overly Dramatic Newscaster-esque speech FTW??

  169. Flex you forgot Ibi LOL

  170. <_< … Ibi too….

  171. Well, When Naruto and Bee have their personalities meet, I think they’ll be slightly immature and bash each other a bit. I can’t say I can speculate where it goes after that. So many different possibilities.

  172. @ Ajd – FREESTYLE RAP DUET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @_@

  173. I smell a great new anime intro for the next arc lol

  174. @Reflex: Since you probably didn’t read the long ass essays I can understand why you haven’t seen that those points you stated were already countered. But if I’m “Superhoe” you’re definitely “Whore”…yeah just “Whore”. Sorry it’s not so creative…>_> L.O.L.

    Lol, let me edit this so people won’t get all offended and whatnot. XD

    @Ajd:

    1. Since Amaterasu isn’t a space-time jutsu I don’t see how Gaara has blocked anything similar to what Kakashi can throw at him.

    2. Gaara is flying again? O_O LOL, fly Gaara fly!!! Who cares about your fighting style!? Fly like a bird! XD

    3. Yes, utilize the smoke bombs! Though, Gaara does not know about Kamui.

    4. Environment: Middle of the ocean! Lol, jkjk.

    @Tenrai: Indeed, intelligence does not win a battle. It’s just a stated advantage Kakashi has over Gaara. Something Naruto would know all about in his battle with Pein. Intel can do wonders. 😉

    @Tod63to: Ja, my comment about underestimating Gaara was directed at Tenrai. Lol, I think Gaara might as well start the battle off flying. Let’s just make it easier despite what the manga shows his fighting style is. For Gaara obstructing Kakashi’s vision what I’ve shown in most of my previous posts is Kakashi can use his MS before Gaara can raise any sand in a defensive manner. As for Kamui requiring hand signs. I don’t believe so. If it required hand signs then he could have not activated kamui twice when buried under the rubble during the Pein invasion.

    @Ahsan: Don’t worry Ahsan, you cited manga links and references. It wasn’t favoritism so I stand by you. ^_^

  175. Just Quickly, wanna put my 2cents in now the point is.

    Kakashi uses Kamui on Garra’s Sand Jar.

    Gaara gathers sand

    Kakashi uses Water jutsu to blast the ground now there aint no more sand.

    Gaara goes in for Taijutsu and some Wind Push technique hits Kakashi injures him abit.

    Kakashi uses Chidori and Gaara is Dead.

    Now thats realistically simple.

  176. @supertrek89

    Actually, there is nothing to stop Gaara from bringing up a defensive wall of sand just as quickly as Kakashi could cast Kamui. When Gaara fought Sasuke, he already had his MS active and ready to go and he was already spamming Amatarasu.

    Amatarasu, like Kamui, does not travel to it’s target, but rather appears at the location the caster focuses his eyes on. So essentially, they have the same attack criteria and range. If Gaara was able to stop Amatarasu by impeding Sasuke’s focus by using a defensive wall of sand, how is that different from doing the same to stop kamui?

    Remember, when Kakashi stopped Sasuke’s cross bolt, even he was surprised that he managed it in time before getting hit. He even said that himself and remarked on how close a call it was. So, even though it takes Sasuke time to draw back the bolt, aim and fire, Kakashi still only just made it, showing us that his technique does need time to start up after all.

    Or maybe he just didn’t notice the giant creature aiming a large flying projectile at him on what was clearly a bow like contraption. He should be smart enough to have noticed it from a mile away, especially with his sharingan, so why couldn’t he stop it sooner rather than leaving it to the last millisecond? I am afraid it isn’t as simple as him just using kamui on the fly…

  177. @lelulalilo

    That’s the problem, it was simple and there wasn’t much though in that argument. Kakashi blowing the ground away and making water? Um… he would have to blow a freaking huge hole in the ground to make sand un-accessible.

    Gaara goes in for Taijutsu??? I need not say anymore…

    LOL! Maybe that post was just a joke on your part. X__X

  178. @Reflex: Not acceptable, I’m modding your post. Don’t do it again. I understand your…sense of humor but that was just dumb. -_-

    @Tenrai: You have to remember that Gaara was allowed to release his sand around himself and start his defense while Sasuke was worn out on the floor.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-464/page010.html

    So of course Gaara could block Amaterasu. He has a bunch of sand all around him. Kakashi would not allow this. As for Kakashi and the crossbolt. Sasuke fired it first and Kakashi had only his sharingan out. Then Kakashi pulled out his MS and warped it while the crossbolt was in midair.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/484-60/6
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/484-60/7

    Not much start up time allowed in that frame of time is there? I like Lelulalio’s approach. I can see Kakashi also doing that. Ok, not so much the Gaara going in for taijutsu but still… Kakashi doesn’t have to use kamui.

  179. @xIReFleX: Hehahahoho Funny..

    Yea when Gaara comes to Taijutsu I think Ten ten could give him a Go, but Gaara is Awesome with that spear he uses in the Anime.

    Kakashi Wins, Hes that Good.

  180. @supertrek89

    That’s because there was a time gap between the frames, as is common in manga seeing as how it cannot show the constant flow of time like the anime can.

    Gaara’s sand would move quicker than the time it takes for Sasuke to aim the giant crossbow of death.

  181. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this subject. o_@ I’m headed off for bed and off of this debate for tonight. Take advantage while I’m gone. :X

  182. Idea for next debate: Ino versus Ten Ten

  183. @ajd

    You mean who can be more useless.That would be a draw 😀

    @Super

    Lol, I never mentioned anything about amaterasu, Tenrai did.You, good sir, are getting delirious. 😀

    @everyone involved in the debate

    There is a irrefutable evidence Kakashi will loose.Did everyone forget that Kishi hates him?If such battle occurs he will probably get a weak bladder or something and loose as a consequence.

  184. OMG ROFLING chapter 491 was pure love :3….it was funny XD!

  185. Supertrek is right. We are going around in circles here. So far, kakashi is winning on the vote status so that speaks for itself. >_>

    -_-

  186. @The Incredible Marksman

    There is more to a debate than a vote. You of all people should know that. Besides, it’s easy to believe someone would win a battle and harder to prove it.

    *goes into a coma from debating so much*

  187. i have always thought that having sage mode plus fox charka would make him amzaing strong but he would be even stronger if u think of it as addeding the fox charka first and then drawing in the nature charka afterwards to balance it out if that happened he could probable be able to take on all of the kages without even breaking a sweat lol

  188. YOSH!!! I love it when a debate dies down to nothingness. Shows people gave it their all but watch someone come in and start it all up again.

    @To63: Lol, you’re right but I was referring to Ajd. For you see Tenrai wasn’t the only one to refer to Amaterasu.

    @Marks and Tenrai: Votes don’t count for everything but I believe Marks was stating it’s good indicator of the winner and who the community thinks should win.

    “To end things off, here’s the winner of last weeks official debate, with the most votes, Killer Bee.” (Tenrai)

    Lol, see? Muhahhahaha! XD Lol, anyway I’m out of the debate. It’s just a merry-go-round at this point and has been for awhile. The paint is peeling off the animals and the music is annoyingly repetitive. *hops off the merry-go-round and gets on the Go-Karts* 😀

    @Smurf: Indeed, since the Kyubi chakra and natural energy are not his own then Naruto never has to use any of his own chakra really. Basically it’s like he as two outlets before he reverts to his own batteries. Seeing as how both outlets are nearly limitless, assuming Kyubi is, Naruto should forget what it’s like to sweat. XD Lol, of course that’s all an exaggeration but I can see Kishi is trying to make Naruto out into a Superkage by the end of the series.

  189. hey guys check out the new trailer for the 4th shippuden movie!!

    *gives 2 thumbs up for naruto looting asuma’s grave* ^_^

  190. @kingtuckerviii

    Coolio…. @__@

    OMG!!!! It has Minato in it!!!!! *Dies of a heart attack and then comes back to life*

    Thanks for the post. ^ ^

  191. @Supah: not if you’re going to quote the Madara thing again. Gaara may be his own sort of badass, but we all know Madara is in a completely different, multi-generational league of his own. Kakashi knows this too. It’s apples and oranges, pal. I think for your assertion to be convincing, you’d have to show where Kakashi thought Gaara to be a similar type of threat to warrant deviation from his greatest strength: his intelligence and cool use of strategy under fire.

    @Tenrai: thanks. 😀

  192. I can’t debate since I’ll probably repeat something someone else said, so I’ll ask some random and almost completely unrelated questions. 😛

    When Amaterasu hits sand, shouldn’t it become glass?
    Gaara vs Sasuke scenario
    Sasuke: Amaterasu!
    Gaara: Imma use my SAND! *covers himself in sand*
    *Amaterasu hits sand and it becomes glass*
    *Gaara is trapped under a huge glass bowl*
    Gaara: WTF?!? Help!
    Sasuke: What is he saying?
    Gaara: There’s no oxygen?!? *dies*
    Sasuke: Wow. That sure was easy. *walks away quietly*
    😀
    If a Mangekyo Sharingan user becomes blind, is he still able to use his eye techniques or is the MS sealed with his eyesight? Because if it isn’t he potentially could use Susano’o to defeat his enemy.

    Pointless and random rant over. 8)

  193. @Ibi: What!? *sigh* I guess we won’t ever agree. For your sake I’m going to say this one more time! =_=

    Gaara is not an apple, he’s more like graham cracker! A dry but sweet personality and he uses sand which is brown. Not to mention sand is crunchy (Yech). Now, if you’re going to turn Madara into a food then an orange won’t suit him besides his mask. He’s more like an onion. Multi-layered/multi-personalities, not many people like him, and he makes people cry (poor Sasuke). So you see apples and oranges don’t equate into this and fruit is for old people. 😛 Oh, and don’t forget about Deidara. He’s like rock candy that pops in your mouth. *facepalms*

    “YOSH!!! I love it when a debate dies down to nothingness. Shows people gave it their all but watch someone come in and start it all up again.”

    BINGO! 😀 To bad I’m out now. It would have been fun debating you again Ibi and I know you were just responding to my previous post. ^_^

  194. *scampers off to corner and chews happily on Kamui bone* >:3

  195. I’ve been outta debate chakra for a while…que the ino vs sakura battle ending

  196. I absolutely do not understand why this gaara vs kakashi debate is hot topic here. Apart from a few people whom i can see want to promote the debate by being a little unrealistic unfortunately, is it really ideal to do a gaara-kakashi match-up? First gaara’s nature affinity already loses to kakashi’s. Secondly, some of you reckon gaara has a lot of chakra. I don’t see where you all get that, especially now he has lost shukaku and we’ve not even seen him in a real battle without it. If you want to analyse and compare him with kakashi wait till the war’s over then you could strike comparisms. Last time i recall he lost to deidara even with shukaku. Yes i understand he didn’t want to risk letting shukaku lose with the village coming into consideration, but he had attacks fuelled by shukaku’s abilities, and pressumably had more chakra with shukaku. With shukaku gone, and with our little knowledge of his combat prowess post shukaku, we can’t readilly claim he is stronger than someone who is a certified genius, one who is respected far and wide, even before gaara was born.

    Some cite kakashi’s low chakra reserves as a reason for his would-be loss to gaara, and gaara’s ‘huge’ chakra as a reason for his would-win. Absolutely preposterous. kakashi has a lot more control and precision with the chakra he has, and gaara lost shukaku, a source of his massive chakra. I’m not saying gaara has no huge chakra, i’m saying it’s possible, but we don’t know that yet until we see him fight properly without shukaku. I personally am not rooting for anyone in this debate, i’m saying until we get to know more of gaara’s current abilities, there’re are to possible realities

    – the gaara we’ve always known, especially with his loss of shukaku, would not win against kakashi.
    – The debate is an unfair match-up at the moment, given what we know about both at the moment, and might prove to be a worthy match-up eventually when we get to see both fight at full power, perhaps during the war.

    Not a suitable debate in my opinion.

  197. @ kingtucker: holy shit…thats awesome! Minato FTEW!!!!

  198. IM SUCH A MINATO FAN-girl so this movie is like a dream come true! ^__^
    Some one should make a discussion post on this…looks at tenrai >_>
    Tenrai: -______- do it yourself….
    ME:……*sad face*

    ANYWAY! before i say what im gonna say if u dont wanna know about the movie dont read the comment -____- very simple….

    The plot so far is Naruto was assigned on a mission to capture Mukade, a missing-nin. Naruto Uzumaki sets out for the once glorious historic ruins of “Ouran”, where he pursues and corners the rogue ninja. Mukade’s goal is revealed to be a dormant leyline within the ruins; he unleashes the power of the leyline, causing a light to envelop Naruto, sending him into the past, 20 years before the series began. When Naruto awakens, he comes into contact with the Fourth Hokage, Minato Namikaze.

    That all thats on the movie right now….looks like an actual good movie for once….well hopefully. ^___^

  199. I initially thought this debate was endless… now I know it is!
    But it’s awesomeness has grown on me… not for the debate itself, I no longer care who wins, I think that a debate between DBZ-Fused Gaara and Kakashi (or Gaarakakasensei) versus Kakashi would be better. Could Kakashi beat himself? if so, could he beat himself and Gaara fused?

    Also the TRUE awesomeness of this debate is that it is dragging old school awesomeness into the fight!

    WELCOME BACK IBIKI! Even if it’s only a few posts!

  200. Debate: Kakashi > Deidera > Gaara

    Kakashi is superior against mid to long range which is exactly what Gaara is…nuff said!

  201. @visionary1200: Deidara isn’t stronger than Gaara. You need to go back and read/watch that fight.

  202. @naga : Gaara got pwned in that fight . or need i remind u of them little bugs explode inside gaara’s unbeatable defence

  203. awwww….thanks Prawl. =^.^=

  204. BUBBLE!!!
    Itachi: Here’s a story
    Sasori: Of a lovely
    Deidara: Lady, who had
    Kakuzu: Raised from dead
    Nagato: 5 very lovely girls!
    Caption: Madara & Kabuchimaru: o_O

    Sorry, it’s the best I could come up with…

    Anyways a Gara of the Sand fight vs Kakashi is too up in the air to post about. Kakashi has a thousand Jutsu at his beck and call and we haven’t even seen half of what he can do so there is no real way to tell whether or not he could fight Gara on even terms or if Gara would be out matched in ways other than combat experience (Kakashi did fight in a war long before Gara was born so…).

  205. OMG I have so much love for this new chapter(491)! 😀 Every page was a joy to read and it was such a nice change from the constant tough time for naruto 🙂 I cant tell the last time I laughed so much in this manga lol!!! And I liked how naruto is getting so much recognition now! From the “Kyuubi brat” to the “Miracle boy”. And now he’s meeting Bee! With their personalities and the way this chapter started on such a comical level, I could just imagine how their interaction would be like! lol I can’t wait for the next chapter:D (Oh and for the new breakdown too!!)

  206. Quote of the Day:

    “when life gives you lemons, make apple juice and leave your friends wondering how the heck you did it.”

    Something to ponder while waiting for 492 😉

  207. Hmm..so this debate still rages on? Interesting.

  208. Very well, having said that, i’ll like to give my own predictions for the next few chapters.

    It seems to me naruto and bee are going to develop a very special relationship. Naruto would have an awful lot to learn from bee obviously. One important area i was going to comment on would be taming the shrew(kyuubi).

    It seems naruto would have to do either of two-or both- to tame the kyuubi.

    – a fight with the kyuubi, one to deterine who becomes master and slave, more like the kind of battle ichigo had with his inner hollow, and quite similar to the struggle he had with gamabunta.

    – he would have to fulfill a task set by the kyuubi in order to win it’s trust.

    kisame would get to fight bee again and after bee is bludgeoned to the point of death naruto would come up and defeat kisame. The reason naruto would take a while would be his inner struggle with the kyuubi. When he’s done with that struggle, it seems his very first opponent would be kisame, a perfect opportunity for him to test his combo. However, kisame would live to tell the tale, seeing how he has already stolen intel on kumo’s battle strategy and might just be in time to tell madara and/or sasuke just how ravaging naruto has become.

    In a wild guess, it seems ‘that jutsu’ is either the dead reaper seal, or a jutsu that obliterates all, similar to that jutsu in the six tail filler arc(i’m drawing this conclusion from the pressumption that kishi put’s up fillers because they are very related to the anime/manga, and we only get to realise the relationship eventually). The flying thunder god seems to me to be a little unrealistic, given naruto’s abilities/would be abilities already. He would not be able to have a decent battle with anyone who would push him to his limits, even sasuke. It seems to me he would already achieve a similar jutsu when his combination of the sage+kyuubi is complete. A jutsu that obliterates all against a jutsu that defends against all(susano, and perhaps the one and original susano itself from sasuke). Should be interesting. I guess we just wait and see.

  209. @ibiki teishi: Hmm..interesting and good to have you around again. Brings back memories, doesn’t it?

  210. BUBBLE:
    all together
    “Backstreets back, alright!”
    CAPTION: This dance competition is heating up

  211. the idea of tobi being obito makes perfect sense because you have to also remember that kakashi’s sharingan powers didn’t work on tobi and the only way that would be is if his own eye was used against him.

  212. @sharinganxbankai,

    You bastard, that makes perfect sense, I agree with you now, I thought it might be shisui but now it makes perfect sense. And obito got a hold of shisui’s eye, that’s how he’s able to transport. Not only that but Danzo only had one of shisui’s eyes anyway, I wonder how this guy got a hold of the other one. However I sense there’s one gap in this whole story. Tobi doesn’t seem to have too much more power then just teleporting from one place to the next. I remember when Naruto met his father for the first time, He told naruto that he sensed there was someone very powerful behind the fox’s summoning, which is why he put the fox in Naruto to begin with. Tobi doesn’t seem that strong.

  213. Uhm…really sorry to pour cold water on all the Obito is Madara theorists out there but….if Madara were indeed Obito, wouldn’t his MS eye pattern be the same as Kakashi’s? I mean, the left eye would have the same pattern as the right eye. The only difference would be in the occular power that the eyes wield. i.e. one eye for jutsu, the other for genjutsu.
    Excepting someone out there is saying that ‘Madara’s’ windmill teleportation houdini skillz is really genjutsu, then surely, it is not Obito’s 2ND EYE cos Kakashi’s MS is jutsu as opposed to genjutsu!!!
    The Madara eye pattern never matches the Kakashi eye pattern…unless Kakashi has a lazy eye.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/480-41/10
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-276/page002.html

    I’ll only subscribe to that theory if someone can show me that they have they same eye pattern.

    And yes, it is possible to show the MS eye pattern without whipping out a tech…see the two links above, there are loads of others.

    by the way, I think ‘Madara’s words were “Don’t bother Kakashi. Techniques like that don’t work on me”. It sounds to me that Madara meant ALL such techniques and not just Kakashi’s. Why would you give someone a visa to country when they hold a passport to get there?

    Perhaps now we can move towards more likely theories???

  214. I can’t remember if anyone has mentioned this. But, if Tobi is Obito, then maybe Kabuto has Rin in the last coffin.

  215. @darkgeenie: No cold water has been poured. It’s true we’ve seen Madara’s Mangekyou, but we’ve never once seen Tobi’s Mangekyou, straight from out his orange mask. If Madara is Obito, then it’s not Madara’s Mangekyou that would be in the eye, but Obito’s, since it’s his body.

    @Gavin: If it was Rin, I doubt Obito would get that frightened, and Kabuto wouldn’t have said “I won’t tell anybody”. Rin isn’t that important of a character.

  216. @nagashikage: Understood! However, there are still many arguments against the Madara = Obito theory.

    1. Itachi was a very astute ninja. If Tobi was Obito and not Madara, he would have known.
    Obito was not a very powerful ninja by any standard but apparently, Madara is because even Itachi appeared to doubt that Sasuke could kill him:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/03/

    2. Even if Obito had qualms against Konoha, he wouldn’t have had any against Uchiha to the point where he would assist Itachi in facilitating their annihilation.

    3. Obito was the 4th’s student. How in a very short time frame of him being trapped under a rock would he have been powerful enough to unleash the 9-tails on Konoha? Remember that Obito wasn’t even very powerful to begin with but nothing the 4th Hokage did changed the course the battle.

    4. Just before Tobi’s eye triggered the amaterasu failsafe that Itachi planted in Sasuke, part of his face was shown – http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/17/
    let’s forget for a moment that it’s the same part of Obito’s face that was crushed, it looks pretty old i.e. he has an older person’s face and not a young face like Kakashi has. My guess his that he needs to get his money back from whoever carried out his Extreme Makeover.

    5. Don’t forget the eye pattern and eye powers. Since Kakashi has awakened Tobi’s MS for jutsu in one eye, the other eye, even if it survived (which is unlikely because half of Tobi’s body was crushed including the eye [yes, eyes can be crushed when big boulders fall on them]) would only be useful for genjutsu. If on the other hand, Tobi’s disappearing act is not an eye tech but a regular jutsu, then why on earth would he have a MS eye tech that essentially is not even as advanced as what he can do with the ‘regular’ jutsu that he can perform? i.e. Tobi’s transport people to another dimension, bring them back, let weapons/people pass through him, him passing through solid objects e.g. trees/ground vs Kakashi’s eye transport things to another dimension only.

    So, in conclusion I think – Tobi is likely to be Madara in some form but lacking attributes/powers that make him as powerful as he once was (maybe as a result of whatever he’s doing to survive as long as he has) but Tobi/Madara is not Obito. To assume that he is would be making some pretty huge leaps in the world of theory to satisfy a craving that some poor crushed Uchiha child survived the ninja war when he clearly didn’t.

  217. Gaara for the epic win!

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